BS: Onward Christian Soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket and his cloven hoof
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:29 AM

Evil goats?

Probably been reading too many Dennis Wheatley novels.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,gaudēre
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:21 AM

take the Mickey Bliss--ok, bit pretentious

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:37 AM

On the matter of proof, I caught the last thirty seconds of "Today" on Radio 4 this morning. I don't know who the interviewee was, but Jim Naughtie was asking him about the likelihood of a Loch Ness monster. The chap said that the evidence was strongly against, but he couldn't be certain. The only way to be sure one way or the other would be to drain Loch Ness and see what was on the bottom. I got to thinking about that. If the loch was drained and a monster was found and authenticated, that would definitely nail it. Almost. Men didn't land on the moon, the earth is flat and Elvis is still alive and working down the chippy, remember. In some people's deluded minds, reason would never win out. The outlandish always trumps the rational. But if nothing was found on the Loch bed it still wouldn't be PROOF that the monster didn't exist. It could have got washed up, died and been eaten by scavengers. It could have escaped out to sea. It could have fled up one of the rivers feeding the loch. The loch floor is a very large and complex place, difficult to search. All perfectly reasonable notions. In the realms of reason applied to evidence (science, in other words), this "proof" malarkey has no place. In maths maybe, but not science. But you can still bet your life that, before long, some Mudcat clown or other will be along to demand proof that God either does or doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:05 AM

Musket,
so his brother Charles(Wesley), the prolific hymn writer would never write anything glorifying soldiers as a means to any end.

"SOLDIERS of Christ, arise,
And put your armour on,
Strong in the strength which God supplies
Through his eternal Son;"
Charles Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:25 AM

Dear FBI. There is an extremist spewing hate against Christians on this forum.
Please investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:58 AM

Before the FBI steps in, GUEST, perhaps you'd like to indicate which specific posts are "spewing hate against Christians".

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 07:19 AM

would never write anything glorifying soldiers as a means to any end.

"SOLDIERS of Christ, arise,
And put your armour on,
Strong in the strength which God supplies
Through his eternal Son;"
Charles Wesley.

So there is something that Keith A and Steve Shaw share - a lack of appreciation of the use of metaphor.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:35 AM

Attack my literary credentials at your peril, Guest darling. I note that you never post long enough posts to expose your undoubted shortcomings. Go on, give us a laugh and post a ten-liner. I dare you to actually develop a thought or two, rather than do just the usual negative sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 10:41 AM

Just lost another post...so shorter attempt.   Proof, yep, think we can agree that is slippery. However , suppose we take Stevens Nessie analogy, and insert evolutionism instead.   Metaphorically, the loch is getting drained and the evidence is against evolutionism. Not only is the increasing complexity of our cells making naturalistic explanations highly unlikely , but increasingly science contradicts Darwin dogma. However, no matter if we drain the whole thing, the committed evolution believer will still hang on in hope that the findings of observational, experimental science can be somehow not what they appear, Darwin be praised !.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:39 AM

"Not only is the increasing complexity of our cells making naturalistic explanations highly unlikely ... "

How are such explanations "highly unlikely"? Who has decided that they are unlikely? What other explanations are more likely?

" ... but increasingly science contradicts Darwin dogma."

Does it? Please cite some references.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:40 AM

"....once we believe that God did everything , the quest is ended..." Steve .      That is a statement also contradicted by the evidence. Many scientists past and present have been or are creationists, and it does not hamper their science at all. They can still investigate the processes that God uses in the natural world.   I suppose you might mean , stop looking for a naturalistic explanation so will that make him redundant , but that is hardly in the spirit of following the evidence where're it leads !. However, a refusal to consider creation and ID has hampered research.   And it was only because a dino bone had to be broken, that the soft tissue discovery was made.....not because they looked for it. And of course that discovery was resisted for as long as they could , supposedly for scientific rigour. Excuse me, if I suspect it to be less impartial than that !

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 12:16 PM

That was me forgot to name me self !.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 12:51 PM

Imagination can be a wonderful thing. Careful, though, pete there's a Guest around who's on the lookout for literary imperfections. I don't think your analogy's going to go down particularly well...

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

Which was a reference to pete's 10.41 post. I got waylaid.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM

That Guest is,however, more interested in logical imperfections.

Such as this creationist chestnut. Not only is the increasing complexity of our cells making naturalistic explanations highly unlikely..

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM

"However, a refusal to consider creation and ID has hampered research."

How has it hampered research? Who says that research has been hampered? Which specific areas of research have been hampered?

"And it was only because a dino bone had to be broken, that the soft tissue discovery was made ..."

You keep banging on and on and on and on etc., etc. about this f***ing "dino bone", don't you, Pete? But it has never been clear what your point is!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:38 PM

It doesn't really matter if a god exists or not. It's your moral code and how you behave that counts. Not what happens between your ears. If your belief/non-belief causes you to commit genocide - it's wrong. If your beliefs ask me to pay my tax dollars to fund the nativity scene at the local courthouse it's wrong. If your belief/non-belief makes you feel like it's acceptable behavior to insult others by calling them superstitious or sinners - it's wrong. Don't ask me to pray your prayers. And if I want to believe in an invisible old man in the sky it shouldn't matter to you. And if you own a church - pay your fair share of the tax burden.

I don't care if you go to church Sunday morning or if you stay home. Just don't attempt to force me to believe what you do. However you got to the moral code that makes sense to you is fine by me as long as you aren't killing, stealing or insulting me for whatever process I used to achieve my moral code.   

Behavior is the key. Not thought crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:55 PM

I wasn't aware that anyone was trying to force anyone to do anything here, though certain people of faith do force their beliefs on their children, lest we forget. If you call me a sinner you're probably right but you're being judgemental. If I call you superstitious, that is factually correct if you believe in a supernatural being, or fairies, or Friday 13th. I suppose I could use a more diplomatic word, but I'm not wrong. If you lived in the UK, your tax money would be used to help to maintain churches, to pay the expenses of bishops in the House of Lords, to pay for faith schools and to infest the BBC with Christian religious programmes. Those issues aside (and it sounds like you agree with the tax point), I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:01 PM

"If your belief/non-belief makes you feel like it's acceptable behavior to insult others by calling them superstitious or sinners - it's wrong."

Those who harbour superstitions are superstitious - it's as simple as that! I certainly don't feel guilty about 'calling-a-spade-a-spade'. Who said anything about sinners?

"And if I want to believe in an invisible old man in the sky it shouldn't matter to you."

It doesn't - unless, that is, you go on and on and on about it or try to convert me or others - particularly children - to your obsessive and unsubstantiated beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:08 PM

You two are both talking in circles. "It's not me - it's the other guys."

Bullshit. Why do you care what other people think?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:35 PM

Shimrod (Jack Vance reference?), I am sorry that your bus stopped outside a church that was closed and seemed to indicate a complete waste of effort. I am a member of a church that has been very close to being closed on more than one occasion, and I suspect there are senior people in the denomination it belongs to who would like to see it closed. But the congregation won't have it. They won't have it because the Church, which like the one you saw has fairly faded board giving the Minister's name hosts: an information office for the elderly; a computer centre for whoever needs it including the elderly (people who have been given an iPad by their grandchildren and havn't a clue how it works), jobseekers who need advice on applications; fitness classes for all ages; weightwatchers; cafes offering refreshments and light meals to people who can't afford the prices charged by some commercial outlets; fitness classes for all ages, yoga classes and much much more. This is what I feel the Church should be for. Pete won't agree, and you might think that the market should offer all these things, but I assure you it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:19 PM

"Shimrod (Jack Vance reference?"

Yes! Well spotted. Vance is one of my all-time favourites - are you a fan, dave?

I don't doubt that (some) churches do good. I just wish they'd find a way of ditching all of the irritating God stuff ... but then, I suppose they wouldn't be churches ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:47 PM

What don't you think I agree with Dave ?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:07 PM

".....creationist chestnut......"guest no ?       Well it was enough to turn the philosopher Antony Flew from his near life long atheism. Something more complex than any computer but supposedly self assembling !

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:19 PM

Yes, I think that the late Jack Vance was a hugely underestimated author, easily the equal of Ursula LeGuin, must have been one of the inspirations for GRR Martin (who I understand gave a tribute at Vance's funeral). Peter Jackson should take on Lyonesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:53 PM

So is yours a 'god of gaps' Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:35 PM

Yes, Dave, my secret is out! Vance is one of my all time favourite authors. I had to dispose of my SF library last year - but I kept all of my precious Vance volumes. I'm now in my 60s but I acquired some of those books in my late teens. There was no-one else like him - do you think that his work is really filmable?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 07:09 PM

"Bullshit. Why do you care what other people think?"

Wesley, I'm interested in what other people THINK. I'm not going to FIGHT AGAINST what people THINK. If you don't get what I'm saying by now, and I've been accused of repeating myself ad nauseam, you've not been reading my posts (I don't blame you). What you believe is none of my business. What you do with your beliefs may well be. It's as simple as that. What people do with their own children is not just their business. It's everybody's business, because those children will grow up and be in charge of my world one day. We are all entitled to not be experts and to blunder and to make bad decisions. But deciding to vigorously persuade at best, or force at worst, children to accept belief in doctrines that are not predicated on evidence is not your moral right. It's actually quite wicked.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:52 PM

 They "Handel" -ed that well." 

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:32 AM

Sorry about the thread creep!

Anyway, you may have noticed, Pete, that whenever you post on here I tend to ask you some pertinent questions and you tend not to answer them. In a previous thread I allowed your refusal to answer to get to me a bit and I insulted you and called you names. I suppose that, at this point, I'm supposed to make a grovelling apology - but I won't because, let's face it, you are a bit of a weird and obsessive creep who allows himself to be a mouthpiece for some very strange people. But leaving all of that unpleasantness aside, here are the two most pertinent questions of all:

Are the vast majority of scientists, working in the field of evolutionary biology and related fields, (a) deluded, or (b) participating in a vast (anti-religious?) conspiracy?

If all of the stuff you post on here is right, it MUST be one or the other. And if either one is right, the implications are ENORMOUS! So which is it, Pete, mass delusion or conspiracy? Of course, I don't expect you to answer but you SHOULD think about those ENORMOUS implications!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:34 AM

I'll give Keith that one.

At the rectory in Epworth, there is a section saying Charles Wesley was a pacifist. I suppose even he used metaphor then.

Like most things however, clever people using metaphor that is taken literally by people of more shallow intelligence doesn't make the metaphor so clever after all.

Hence pete taking the big book of fairy stories to be physically true or when Keith picked up on a song I had a hand in writing taking the piss out of homophobia, trying to tell everybody on Mudcat it was face value rather than farce value.

This thread, as ever, can't ever reach consensus whilst ever normal people are persecuting the little baby Jesus eh? Don't worry, if everybody was having a pop at Sheffield Wednesday I'd be up there resisting any logical stance that offended my faith.

zzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:36 AM

Yazidi community member has shared a gruesome story where one mother captured by the Islamic State terror group was told she ate the meat of her own toddler. The Yazidis have been speaking out about the atrocities they continue suffer at the hands of IS, and have criticized President Obama for not doing enough to help them

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:42 AM

Musket, why not post the lyrics of your anti-homophobia song?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:49 AM

Here it is,

While sitting in a hostelry, alone one Sunday night,
A fella came across to me and asked me for a light,
He offered me a cigarette; he bought me half a beer,
And we were getting friendly when he whispered in my ear.

cho: "My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
    I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
    My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
    In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you."

Well I supped my jar; I left that bar, faster than a scalded cat,
Caught the landlord's eye as I went by and I stopped just for a chat,
I said, "Hey, he's propositioned me. Do you allow that there 'ere?"
Well he didn't get riled, in fact he just smiled and he whispered in my ear.

Well off I did go, to the new disco, to find myself a bride,
Picked up this pearl of a pastry girl, took her for a ride,
In the back of the car, I got so far, then I froze with fear,
When I felt a lump and my heart went thump and a voice whispered in my ear.

Next day at eight, I called my mate, he promised not to tell,
By a quarter to nine the production line, the foreman knew as well,
They called me misses and they blew me kisses, the boss he got to hear,
For me he sent, to the office I went and he whispered in my ear.

I joined the health service, to train to be a nurse,
With stethoscope and fob watch, with pride I fair did burst,
My charge nurse said he'd teach me, the kiss of life technique,
Well first he turned the lights down and when he began to speak, he said,

"My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:58 AM

Your point being?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:30 AM

One of many, many good songs written by Mitch Mitchell.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:59 AM

Shimrod, I didn't think Tolkein was filmable, but given the LoR films and Avatar, I would have thought that Lyonesse could be filmed. Durdane or Tschai, probably not. Trouble might be that they would stuff it full of big names, and we would be left with a travesty like Sting and co made of Dune.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:31 AM

You're probably right, Dave. On balance, most of Vance's oeuvre should probably be left on the page.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:40 AM

Anyway, getting back to you, Pete. You've had plenty of time to think about my questions now. So, is modern evolutionary biology a vast conspiracy or a mass delusion? If you're right, about what you insist on calling "evolutionism" (LOL!), it must be one or the other. And if it's either of those things, what are the ENORMOUS implications of your choice?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:10 AM

Yeah Raggy. Mitch wrote some pearlers. I made a small contribution to that one although neither Mitch nor I wrote one of the particular verses in the post Keith just quoted.

Curiously, the first ever time Mitch sang that one outside of Worksop Folk Club was at my first wedding. The song was adopted by a bunch of gay blokes who drank in The Frog and Nightgown. The then landlord had a plaque put up saying Clarence Corner.

Sadly, we both stopped singing it when we realised that the mindset Keith is exhibiting isn't as exclusive as you'd think. Some idiots thought we were laughing with them not at them. The recently deceased Warren Mitchell spoke of his problem in the same way, Nasty people thinking Alf Garnett an orator rather than a fool.

When I stopped singing Clarence, I did add Si Khan's excellent Curtains of Old Joe's House to the repertoire. I still do a few of Mitch's numbers and am proud to have been a good friend of his for almost forty years. Nice to give Keith another opportunity to share the deliciously ironic lyrics again. You know, given Keith's twisting of public health figures to promote homophobia, it could have been written a retired PE teacher going out for a drink or to the disco.

I looked like a clown in Hertford town,
In a pub where the drinkers are deaf
They seem to enjoy my urban wit
Especially one called Geoff
He nodded particularly at my grasp of history
And my politics which are so queer
He said "don't talk bollocks, my real name is Betty Swollox"
And she whispered in my ear

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:47 AM

Musket,
neither Mitch nor I wrote one of the particular verses in the post Keith just quoted.

Funny, you said you did.
Musket - PM
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:58 AM


"By the way, as the bloke who wrote the car verse, it is Page 3 girl, not pastry girl"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:13 AM

I would suggest that the following is the verse in question. It's one I certainly haven't heard before or heard Mitch talk about on the odd occasion we meet.

"I joined the health service, to train to be a nurse,
With stethoscope and fob watch, with pride I fair did burst,
My charge nurse said he'd teach me, the kiss of life technique,
Well first he turned the lights down and when he began to speak, he said"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:26 AM

Yeah, that the one Raggy.

Mitch also included (most of the time) a verse about James Bond. I never used it but there again, I used to occasionally add a verse based on current affairs, mostly ditching it after a week or two and knocking up another.

It is his song by any and all ways of attributing it.

Keith? What are you wittering on about? Do you like my new verse? It does scan to the tune but looks a bit contrived on paper. A bit like your posts really.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:17 AM

Onward Teribus soldiers!
Writing about the war
With the blushes of Jesus
Looking down at the floor!
Keith the ever apologist
Ake'ing to impress
Paramilitary Christianity!
What a fucking mess....

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:08 PM

"...god of the gaps...." Charges guest whoever above. If said guest recalls ,I earlier said that being creationist has never stopped scientists past or present doing great science, and investigating (so far as possible) the processes God uses in nature.   Evolution of the gaps would be more apt. Intelligent design and creation must be discounted whatever the evidence, and believe by faith that there must be another explanation!.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:47 PM

And another "soldier" heard from:

Mosque Fire in California
By RICK ROJASDEC. 12, 2015

SAN BERNARDINO, Calif. — The authorities said Saturday that they were questioning a "person of interest" in the investigation into what appeared to be an arson fire that burned through part of a Southern California mosque just before a prayer service on Friday.

Congregants at the Islamic Society of Coachella Valley, in Coachella, had started arriving for 1 p.m. prayers when they heard a "loud boom" shortly after noon, Reymundo Nour, the mosque's acting imam, said.

Soon, the front of the mosque erupted into flames. More than a dozen firefighters arrived within minutes and contained the fire to the lobby, although there was smoke damage throughout the building, officials said. No one was injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:29 PM

What was the death toll in that mosque fire? Was that the pogrom you are hoping for?
I hear 51% of muslims in the us would prefer shara law over the constution.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:40 PM

I hear 51% of muslims in the us would prefer shara law over the constution.

There's medication you could take for those voices in your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:10 PM

So, Pete, is modern evolutionary biology a giant conspiracy or a mass delusion? I know that you're ignoring me. Presumably, if you could bring yourself to speak to me, you would tell me it's because I was rude to you. But both of us know that it's because you haven't really got a clue; you're just repeating stuff that you've read with no idea of how it relates to the real world. You know nothing about science, do you, Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:33 PM

FBI hate crime statistics 2014

Of the 1,140 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

    56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders' anti-Jewish bias.

    16.1 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.

    6.2 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

    6.1 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.

    2.5 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.

    1.2 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

    11.0 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion).