BS: London Riots

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:00 AM

The police are the visible symbol of state authority in inner city areas so are bound to get it in the neck when the marginalised kick off. I'm surprised it took so long for this to happen and that it hasn't been worse. Thirty years on from the riots under the last lot of Tories, we have kids who have grown up knowing nothing else but life on the outside looking in. Generations who haven't worked unless its crappy McJobs, sink estates ruled by drug, gun and gang culture (where the local gangster is the role model whose 'made it'), coupled with a broader culture where conspicuous consumption and bling is norm we're all supposed to aspire to - no wonder these riots have been consumer riots, where the chief focus, apart from having a ruck with the police, seems to be acquiring the sorts of things we are all told are essential to make us complete modern humans. This is an eruption of underclass resentment - don't expect coherent political discourse from the participants, or careful targeting of established left bete noires (the banks, big business etc). Expect instead rage and destruction and more consumer-driven looting: "When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose".... Oh, and expect the Tories to do really well out of this and probably get re-elected on a law and owder/traditional values ticket which will give them the green light to carry on making cuts in services. Youth workers have been predicting riots ever since the Tories started stuffing up the services that kept a lid on the chaos...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:06 AM

Well-put, Spleen. What must not be allowed to happen, however, is for these riots to be used as an excuse by this tawdry government to take away even more of the civil liberies of the rest of us - as, indeed, New Labour did in the name of the fictional 'war on terror'.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: I don't know
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:07 AM

The England match off tomorrow (football). Sony lost thousands of CDs & other music items at Enfield. What next, who knows but things usually get worse before they get better.
My daughter has just told me she wishes she still lived in Putney, loves the city & hopes to be back there before the olyimics!!
Someone will do well out of the situation but it will not be the "ordinary people". we will be made to pay for the damage for many years.
My thoughts go out to the people trying to live in these areas & the emergancy sevices who are risking there lives to try & salvage the situation, lets hope it soon stops.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:16 AM

Football match off - well some good did come after all.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:41 AM

Many are asking what will happen to those involved once the cctv camera is examined.

Simple, this is what will happen.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/criminals-taken-theme-park-trip-114959287.html

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:01 AM

The local community pub in my village was attacked last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14461225

This is it:

http://thedeantavern.com/

That's 400 miles from London.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:10 AM

As a football fan and a musician Richard, I would say that the good news is that Sony has lost some money. However, I agree with just about everything else you have written on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:21 AM

""No. I mean that the gap between the rich and poor has massively increased in both absolute and relative terms.""

Indeed it has, and more under the Blair/Brown government than any other.

Perhaps we could hear your take on the fact that over twelve years they failed to do squat about that problem, and are now trying to blame it on their successors?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:25 AM

This and this are terrible, partly because I can't read the flaming thing.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:28 AM

No Don, most under Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:29 AM

Though news of coastal looting is true.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:35 AM

"I knew it wouldn't be long before the clowns arrived and started blaming the police. "
Thought that that was what you wanted; you've been trying to prod it into life for long enough.
It took even less time for a brown-nose to leap to their defence without a scrap of evidence to back up any claim that they have behaved impeccably here.
This would be the same police who have recently lost a senior officer due to the phone-tapping affair, and are likely to lose a few more - and even have a few banged-up over the same business?
Get real.
The last Tottenham riots were sparked off by the death of Cynthia Jarret, which was largely caused by heavy-handed policing.
The last Brixton riots were caused by heavy-handed policing.
The appalling (probably deliberately so) investigation into the death of Stephen Lawrence was caused (according to an official enquiry) by "institutional racism within the Metropolitan police".
The present trouble in Tottenham was possibly sparked off and escalated by heavy-handed policing following the killing of a young man, quickly followed up by a possible heavy handed stop-and-search in Brixton.
We know that opportunist thugs have escalated a genuine protest into a rapidly-accelerating full-scale riot, but we don't know how well or badly the police have behaved yet.
Before we start accusing and acquitting, wouldn't it be best to get some facts first?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:37 AM

"Many are asking what will happen to those involved once the cctv camera is examined.

Simple, this is what will happen.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/criminals-taken-theme-park-trip-114959287.html"

Don't be stupid - they will serve suitable prison sentences which will be all the more unpleasant, because the decent criminals inside will make their lives hell.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:38 AM

On the subject of who to follow, I believe LondonRiots2011 is the answer you were looking for.

I'll leave this thread in peace for a bit now.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:53 AM

So, Jim, how can the police ever get it right when, on the one hand, people like you say they're too heavy handed, yet a large number of people who, unlike you and the other cop-haters on here, were actually there last night have spoken on TV and radio, saying that the police weren't tough enough.

You cop-haters can't have it all ways.

And isn't cop-hating a bit juvenile for someone your age? Words like 'grow' and 'up' spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:56 AM

Who is Harry Brown ?

Apologies for the staying up all night watching rolling news channels dismayed outburst.

I declare myself as a real saddened and angry voice of old fashioned self respecting educated left wing working class
council estate culture and pride.


[and an jesterly ironic reference to an iconic and somewhat relevant Michael Caine movie role]

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

How does you folks spitting on each other help anyone or shed any light on the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

Spot on post from Mr. Cringe below!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:21 AM

Duggan was killed by a single shot to the chest.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:28 AM

Just to lighten things up a bit, a very well known folk fiddler has the solution on Facebook.

"Send in the Morris dancers. Bampton will clear it up!"

Somebody suggested that as hoodies hate folk MUSIC even more than folk DANCE, said fiddler should get involved.

He replied "I thought of that too. I have a letter to go in the post offering my services for a modest retainer. 50 percent of all goods dropped in panic as the sound of a slow air wafts thru the battle line".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:29 AM

If anyone who criticises any aspect of how the police do their job is now a 'cop hater', in my experience that means there are a lot of cops out there who are filled with self loathing... The continuing right to criticise any arm of the state at least shows that democracy is still functioning.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:33 AM

I think support's what those guys need right now, Spleen.
Would you be prepared to do their job?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:36 AM

Would you be prepared to do their job knowing full well that whatever you do, you will be criticised by the cop-haters?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:38 AM

The important issue right now is to prevent further rioting, burning, looting and violence.

Examination of everyones' roles needs to be carried out, but it should wait until the fires are out and the gangs have gone.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:44 AM

I can fully understand why Cameron is disgusted with the way these rioters are trashing places. Now if they'd been members of the Bullingdon Club like him, they'd know how to do it PROPERLY.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:46 AM

Threatened riots disturbances are being proposed in Bristol strangely enough near poor old Tesco again in Stokes Croft. The original reason for this was because the residents did not want yet another Tesco in the area, previously it had been a comedy club. But yet again it was a target with windows broken. This is nothing to do with the Tottenham riot at all just an excuse to copycat. The main Cabot shopping area was threatened but I don't know yet if anything actually happened. My guess is that kids see this going on and think they can jump on the bandwagon and get away with it too.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM

"Yeah, lets go and trash the shopping centre. We can always blame the cops, plenty of them numb-nut Mudcatters will support us."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: pdq
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:57 AM

It appears that "rioting and looting" behavior is a close relative to Marxism, just on an accelerated time schedule.

Redistribution of wealth. Sorta like "instant gratification Socialism".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:16 AM

Fascinating how many think the idiots are looking for political reform. And there was me thinking they wanted something, they don't exactly know what, but as long as it staves off the boredom today, it'll do.

We give free education, we give a safety net and the rest of us happily pay for it. Stop telling the feral buggers they may have a point. They don't, they have a criminal record at the end of it, and that just makes their future prospects even bleaker.

Despite the many issues over the years, I still say politicians of all colours don't deserve the overall commitment of the police to try and keep law and order and to preserve the peace. Yes, we have a problem, have had since time began and will still have it when we are all forgotten. But if society is to work, it has to be within rules, and there is not much point asking the little shits not to break your windows because you empathise with their plight.

Tottenham may have been the catalyst but after that, it is just monkey see, monkey do. Nothing more, nothing less and I for one hope it fizzles out fast.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM

"No. I mean that the gap between the rich and poor has massively increased in both absolute and relative terms."

Then maybe, Richard Bridge, you should have said that. I thought lawyers were supposed to practise precision of language. Do we agree that your new statement says nothing about the poor getting poorer?

"You might like to consider this evidence, Ringer:"

OK, theleveller, I've considered the "evidence" you present. The only point that has any relevance to the 30-year trend in the UK and the USA mentioned by Richard Bridge is the second, and that depends on an unspecified definition of "poverty" and deals only with (I presume) children in the UK. It's a long way from contradicting my suggested correction of Richard Bridge's statement.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

Thank God it's not just me that thinks that way. I was starting to think I'm the only sane person in the asylum.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

My last comment was a response to Ian Mather's post, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:24 AM

Ringer, if you don't understand relative poverty you are not well equipped to comment here.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM

Ringer, try reading Tony Judt's last book, Ill Fares the Land. Plenty of evidence in there, but I'm not about to go through it and pick it out for you. Do your own research.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

Incidentally, I thought I said far above that the police were in a thankless position - but the bureaucratic buck-passing about who should have interacted with Duggan's family is rather off and not, I think, the police's fault but the IPCC or government's.

The scale of the problem may I suppose be a bit much for the police, too - but that also is the fault of government who have scaled down police expenditure.

It is not sensible for the comfortable middle class (moi?) to say that the rioters are not seeking reform or change: there is no coherent position enunciated but there is a bitterness at the ongoing enrichment of the rich yet the scapegoating and impoverishment of the relative poor that I would have thought undeniable.

Bigger guns is not the answer. I'll borrow from a US thread a couple of quotes: -


First "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable". John F. Kennedy


Second "We can never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal."

August 1963
Letter from Birmingham Jail
by Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,acegardener
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Reports from Hampton Court Palace suggest a small quartet of men in heraldic costume have just begun luting.......

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

"But if society is to work"

But that's the root of the problem - it doesn't work! Cameron's Big Society is the same as Thatcher's No Society - look after yourself because it's not the role of the state to do so. A long way from the ideals of Keanes and those whose idealism and compassion put in place the Welfare State and the HNS. A bloody long way from the ideals that I was brought up to believe in. I'm not excusing or condoning the behaviour of the rioters and looters but inless we see the full picture it's going to happen more and more.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:43 AM

Hardly a riot, more a joint tantrum. Photos up on flickr by the Met I understand.

Several helicopters have been overhead where I am in Coulsdon, or it may be the same one circling.

Right, what's for dinner this evening??

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

I'm kind of with Ian and Backwoodsman on this with the following clarification of my opinion.

You carry a sign, you are making a point.
You scream at the authorities you are making a point.
You can make a point by breaking a cctv or the window of a chain store.
You steal a plasma tv, you are just a thief.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:53 AM

Sorry leveller, I see where you are coming from, but society does work for the vast majority and can work for anybody who wishes to participate in it and enrich it.

There is no alternative to democracy, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Why are they looting? Because they want what society can offer, they just fear it may be something to do with taking responsibility for their lives. If they were wearing rags and looked ill nourished and couldn't read and write, I might say we have got something wrong. But they can, they have the opportunities and all they seem to be able to do is get a buzz out of being outrageous.

I bet they are pissing themselves to see old men with beards quoting John F Kennedy instead of advocating for decent people, including the thousands of elderly and infirm who must be watching the telly and wondering if they ever dare leave the house again. I'm more interested in addressing their concerns than young idiots who are capable of letting their balls drop and go home if they had enough brain cells to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM

That is the whole point - these people will never be more than "just" or "mere".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM

Jack, Ian - wise words with which I concur.
Respec' Man!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:11 PM

I concur except for the 'window-breaking' bit - criminal damage isn't 'making a point', it's criminal fuckin' damage.

Otherwise....spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:11 PM

"but society does work for the vast majority and can work for anybody who wishes to participate in it and enrich it."

I think it is working less and less well as the gap between rich and poor increases and those who are left behind are the weakest - the sick, the old, the disabled and those who, often through no fault of their own, are unable to support themselves and their families. It is these who are increasingly being told that they are outside society. The universal safety net is no longer there. As with Ringer, I suggest that you read Tony Judt's book - I haven't got my copy with me at the moment, but I can promise you that it is an eye-opener. Theft, I agree, is theft - but this is small scale compared to the corporate theft that we have seen recently and sets the example within our society. Greed, inequality and unfairness is endemic now, displacing the alrtuism and hope of the post-war years.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM

No, Mither, it doesn't. Look at the income distributions. Intelligence (insofar as measurable) is normally distributed about the arithmetic mean of those of the parents. Material wealth and power are not similarly distributed, although the wealth of one's parents is a significant predictor of one's wealth. Try thinking, rather than aspiring to rule.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:26 PM

Reading some of the posts here anyone would think the riots happened just for the hell of it. Last time I checked, happy people don't riot.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:27 PM

I'll concur with the person who asked how arguing here helps matters.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:31 PM

Eyar... some happy news: People with brooms

DrugCr, you're absolutely right, arguing here helps nothing. But discussion and debate is usually a good thing in society, as long as people listen to each other, can keep it civil and, erm, keep it above the belt...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:33 PM

Bombing Tripoli is criminal damage. It is also making a point and trying to accomplish a goal.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:39 PM

Theft.haha
53 BILLION WAS STOLEN FROM THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND WHEN THE LAST IRISH GOVERNMENT DECIDED TO BUY USELESS ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES,THAT HAD TO BE SCRAPPED