BS: London Riots

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:18 AM

Ian you know what that great philosopher Auric goldfinger said

Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, third time - it has to be something to do with the bloody tories being in power again....

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:18 AM

"If only we had listened to that guy in the sixties, he made so much sense."
And done what - send the newly arrived back to where they came from and the second and third generations - where exactly?
Arguments like his only manage to drive the wedge between the communities in deeper - it was garbage like Powell and his supporters who set the scene for what is now happening.
Make newcomers feel like intruders and evetually they will start smashing up the furniture
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:32 AM

Why that coy aposeopesis, Al? The third time, to remind the few who couldn't fathom Big Al's reference, is ENEMY ACTION. And who is the 'enemy' to your thinking, Al? ~ democratically elected governments, or poor pitiable impoverished yobbos who can't bother to work but can somehow afford smartphones and BlackBerries, who get a buzz from terrorising their OWN communities and driving young women to leap from flames thru upstairs windows and be lucky to be caught by those below?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bob Wakeling
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM

The police have one arm tied behind their back thanks to moaning left wing types. I would prefer to see the lads deal with this type.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:39 AM

"The police have one arm tied behind their back thanks to moaning left wing types. I would prefer to see the lads deal with this type."

Complete and utter bollocks! My son's a policeman and they are, as I posted here several times, totally fed up with being asked to clear up the mess created by this government. Theye are as pissed off with Cameron as anyone. Try getting some facts before you open your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bob Wakeling
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:49 AM

What has this to do with government ? Les, I thought you were a better man than that by your photograph.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:00 AM

Is Conrad Black in prison here?

Yes, Mither, it does all flow from Thatcher (well, and her ilk - the grabbies) - remember "There is no such thing as Society"? Now it is "the Big Society" - all still about "Don't care in the Community".

Oh, goodness - while I am being nostalgic, here come the rabid overt racists again. With their little "We've seen you with these people and we know who you are". Offering to do a bit of "policing", eh? Well I wonder who will get "arrested" and maybe killed in the process. Convicted by the "people's court" of offences like DWB.

No wonder there are problems.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:09 AM

What difference is that supposed to make, Richard? Please elucidate; I genuinely cannot fathom what point you think you are making in trying to establish the precise whereabouts of Lord Black's incarceration.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:33 AM

The UK system let him remain at large.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:40 AM

Well let's hope it doesn't allow those feral criminal arseholes who have burnt, looted and rioted these past few nights remain at large.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:45 AM

These incidents can hardly be dignified by the name 'riots'. They are more like wild, 'free form' shopping expeditions and are probably an apt comment on our consumer society.

I also can't help noticing that you are more likely to be 'kettled', batonned or killed if you take part in a political protest (or are an innocent bystander at one) than if you are a feral yob trashing a high street. It's contrasts like this which reveal the true nature of our political system.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:56 AM

"This isn't about a Tory government,this is about lawlessness. There is no Tory government and if there was, there is one way to fight them and one way only. The next general election."

This is about a group of young people who owe allegiance to no govt, no nation, no family, only themselves.

Who made them like that?.....look in the mirror.

Our support for a rotten system, which encouraged the mantra of self(there is no such thing as society), made this generation of young folks.
Consumerism, materialism, money, there is nothing else in their lives, how do you expect people to behave when they realise that the greed of others has deprived them of any sort of meaningful(in their terms) future?

Prepare yourselves for the worst, this is just the beginning....soon the choice will be to join the angry brigade, or settle for military rule, with all that that entails.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:09 AM

As one youth worker put it, "People with hope don't riot."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

However bad you think the system is, the "riots" were not a response to it.
The mobs were not politically motivated.
The demonstration on Friday was about a genuine concern.
The power of the social media was unleashed and the ability to overwhelm a local police presence was discovered.
It then became just opportunistic robbery and arson.
It is not about ideology, but technology.
Disappointing for the ideological zealots.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:17 AM

In London last night, the "rioters" were massively outnumbered and frustrated by residents protecting their communities.
This is not the start of anything.
Now the social media misuse is understood, it can be overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:17 AM

A word about the pish spouted by the "equality" crowd.
The immigrants have all been encouraged here to service the system, not make this a more free or equal group of nations.
The benefits system was designed as a safety valve, but supported by "liberal" idiots it has "growed an growed" 'till it has become a monster enslaving those that it rules, taking away all remaining vestiges of worth from the lives of ordinary people.

My uncle had no legs....there was no incapacity, he carved his own crutches, he worked five days a week felling huge Beech trees with his two brothers....he contributed to his family, there wasn't a prouder, more independent man on earth.

This system of greed and phony equality has produced a generation of worthless creatures whos world is defined by what can be bought by a few pieces of coloured paper.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:21 AM

Sorry Keith, I didn't mean the riots were a response to the system, I meant that they were a symptom of it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:32 AM

"However bad you think the system is, the "riots" were not a response to it."

Ah, well that's alright then. We can just all relax and let the government continue tearing our society to pieces. Thank goodness for that!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:01 AM

the people who say these riots aren't political are being too narrow in their definition of politics. Granted none of the rioters may be in the Young Conservatives or the Young Communists.

However James Cameron once remarked, Communism appeals to the peasants of Malaya and China because you can distil its message into two sentences - more food for us, and kill the bosses.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:10 AM

Well, or conservatism - more wealth for us, screw the workers, and God help the incapable.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:11 AM

PS - Akenaton, you are frustrating. You can go from so right to so wrong in 40 words or fewer.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:14 AM

Leveller, just because the riots are not a response to the system does not mean the system can not be improved.
Did you really need that spelt out?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:14 AM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:24 AM

This bloke expresses better than I could where I believe this problem comes from.(in my 38th year as a teacher)
"Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:24 AM

"Leveller, just because the riots are not a response to the system does not mean the system can not be improved.
Did you really need that spelt out?"

Well, I'd like some evidence to show that they're not a response to the system. Afraid I'm not prepared to just take your word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:38 AM

""It is the fact that the rioters can see (and they are probably right at present) no way for them to attain the things that society tells them are the only measures of success and respect.""

Egregious twaddle!

If the kids of a deprived area go on the rampage out of frustration that is, while reprehensible, at least understandable.

That is not what we have seen happening over the last four days, and you know it.

This series of looting sprees has absolutely nothing to do with poor disadvantaged kids.

Nor were they the kids from that deprived area, since the rioters were pouring in from miles around on the invitation by Blackberry message to "come and get some free stuff."

Onlookers said that the original outbreak was APPARENTLY mostly teenagers, many of school age, but that the copy cat events were mostly adult males and some females in the twenty to thirty age range and older.

I said earlier that I had worked for fifty three straight years. In fact I never collected one penny from the state in unemployment benefit.

Whenever I was facing unemployment, I got off my arse and went looking, and I always found work, simply because I took whatever job was available until something better came along.

That, starting in 1957, was me following the actual intended meaning of that, constantly misquoted entirely out of context, comment from Maggie Thatcher, taking responsibility for my life and making my own way in the world by hard bloody work (So she wasn't the first to think of it).

Kids were telling me in the early seventies "There's no work out there". There was, and I found it.

The problem today is that kids think that they can loll around street corners, devoid of skills or ambition and do fuck all, and one day somebody will give them a job with all the benefits and a fifty K salary.

Somebody needs to tell them "You fucked about at school and wasted your education, so no go out and get your hands dirty and earn your way as we had to do."

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:54 AM

I don't normally quote myself, but (from another thread):

This isn't being done by poor kids who have nothing. Poor kids who have nothing don't steal 42-inch plasma screens, they steal food. Poor kids who have nothing don't communicate with each other via their Blackberrys and laptops. These people - for whatever reason - do not feel for those whose lives they have destroyed, or even seem to think they're doing anything wrong.

If you haven't listened to Penny's "Here come the girls" link, do so. Now. If you can't get the video clip from where you are, here's an audio from BBC World Service. But try to watch it if you can because the relationship between what you're hearing and what you're seeing is heartbreaking. These kids don't even know who the government IS, for God's sake.

http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworld

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:59 AM

Absolutely spot-on again, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:59 AM

Would anyone else agree that this has nothing to do with government policies or bankers.

Those involved in the anarchy on our streets are nothing more than lazy workshy bastards who despise anyone who owns a business, drives a nice car, lives in a nice home, pays their way in life.

These little fucks just want to take TV's phones, computers out of shops and laugh at police officers standing watching them from police lines a quarter of a mile away watching another crowd.

Stop all this Cameron, Thatcher crap and open your eyes, these little bastards would rob you as quick as they would look at you, hope they head the direction of Bridge, now that would please me.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:02 AM

Actually, listen to the audio clip - it's longer and tells you more. (Vid is about 30 seconds & aud is a minute and a half). These girls are nearly 18 (legal age) and they're not in school but they work (provided their jobs haven't been burned out by now). The clip gives a better demographic picture of who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:21 AM

the English government are so stupid,what they should have said is there will be extra police in all the major cities, to let the rioters know that extra police were going to be in london, only achieves a shifting of the violence some where else in this case to manchester.
YES,IMO THIS IS A RESULT OF PEOPLE BELIEVING THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SOCIETY.
what has happened, well years ago people were frightened into good behaviour by religion, now there is a vacuum, nothing has replaced it morally, we are left with a society that is concerned about consumerism ,looking after number one ,not having any respect for your local community or neighbours,IMO this is a direct reflection of Thatchers philosophy of looking after number one and f### everyone else, WE ARE REAPING THATCHERS OATS, A WHIRLWIND OF ALIENATED CONSUMERS WHO HAVE NO MORAL SCRUPLES, who believe in nothing else but looking after number one.
I blame the capatalist consumer system that has dehumanised people, and that has taken away any moral guidance and created a them and us situation

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:21 AM

Absolute twaddle, as usual, Don. Just how out of touch with the real world can you be?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:22 AM

That's a helpful link, Bonnie, especially with the comments. One struck me particularly, being about the sense of entitlement the young people have. This strikes me as curious, since until this week, having a sense of entitlement was a criticism of the Tory front bench.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: pdq
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:28 AM

Marxists always incite the ignorant street rabble to do their dirty work for them.

Now they have Rock music, movies, newspapers, magazines, Rap, and "community organizers" to pound the rabble endlessly with their class warfare message.

Salvadore Allende's Leftist mobs dragged hundreds of small business owners from their shops and tortured and murdered them in the name of "the people".

The mobsters then looted the stores of everything they could steal.

The same bastards later complained that there were places to buy groceries.

What's different is that the London rioters seem to be pampered, fat, spoiled brats.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:32 AM

Just wondering when was the last (if any) time Don and Bluesman actually visited a 'sink' estate and talked to the people there to find out how hard their lives are, what their aspirations are and how litle hope they have of ever achieving them. Come on, answer honestly! Or, as I suspect, do you just sit on your smug, self-satisfied arses and pass fatuous comments about something you know absolutely nothing about.

Oh, and instead of slagging these poeple off, just what are you prepared to do to help them? Fuck-all, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:48 AM

I suspect Don and Bluesman are white and middle class. As am I. Raised by hard working parents who saw to it that I earned my way from age 11 with baby sitting jobs. When I worked I paid "rent". As did my four brothers. We went to school or we went to work. No free rides.
All that has little or nothing to do with the rioters.
There is always a minority who feels entitled - every family I know has one. And yes - some of the rioters fall into that category. But it is not at the root of the problem.
There is a lot of anger and frustration fueling these riots. Unless it is addressed, it will take little to set off the destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:08 AM

Thank you mayomick for sharing that link to the video Tottenham Riots-The Truth

Here's my transcription of that interview. Besides agreeing with just about everything he said, I felt that a transcription of this interview should be available for the historical/folkloric record, and to increase access to the video for those who are hard of hearing. Besides those reasons, I transcribed that interview because I think it would make a great monologue (not only because of what was said but also because of how it was said, and the scene itself).

Note: A question mark in brackets is found in the transcription after mention of Broadsworth farm because I couldn't understand that next word. Also, I added question marks after the man's distinctive use of the interjection "yeah". But that word isn't really a question.

I also created a page for this transcription on my Cocojams website at http://www.cocojams.com/content/tottenham-riots-truth-interview-transcription


Transcription: Tottenham Riots - the truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQHWwEpwAY

[indistinguishable chatter in the background]

Yep that me? Well, as far as I'm concerned the process-protest started like this right? There were about 150 people outside the police station. And they were out there and they were quite patient. All they wanted was a few answers as to what happened. The police completely ignored them. You know what I mean, treated 'dem with contempt. And even at that point they didn't retaliate. And then, a young sixteen year old-well approximately-went to approach them to again find out probably what was going on. And they just took some evasive action by pushing her and drawin their batons and that's when they people then started to retaliate. Now I think in all circumstances having seen that most people'd retaliate. Yes?

Now the police seems to have this contempt for people. And I don't think they necessarily needed to have killed the guy yeah? They had apprehended him, right? They was in control, right? There was no need for them to kill him. There was absolutely none, yeah? So basically, they might be surprised that this has happened, yeah. But they still don't seem to have learned their lesson thirty years ago approximately what happened in Broadwater Farm and Tottsworth [?] and them places, yeah?. And you cannot keep oppressing people, right? They talk about Tottenham being bad and things. There's nothing wrong with Tottenham, right. We've got a mixture, right, of people in Tottenham. Everybody in general gets on, yeah? So why are they tryin to make out as if Tittenham, you understand, is, you understand is all hotspot, you understand, it is that's bad. I mean look today, you can see all different sorts of groups or whatever, cultures of people, yeah? There's nothing that serious in Tottenham, yeah? But now I says they seems to pacifically target Tottenham and places like Brixton the deprived area where they know that predominately most Black peoples, you understand, have been sort of reside, yeah?

Well, I sincerely hope that this today, this event, will sort of make some changes some progress, yeah? Cause this is not just about Black people now cause if you can see the thing and the pictures there's All sorts of people, yeah? Ah it's not just Black people. So they can't use that now as an excuse and say, you know, Black people retaliate in, you know what I mean, in different ways, and things like that, yeah? So... it's a shame that it's happened the way it's happened. But unfortunately they say "You got to fight fire with fire, yeah". So I hope that they will stand up and acknowledge and DO something about it. It's as simple as that, yeah?.


-snip-

Please post the word that is said after the mention of Broadwater far, and any other corrections to this transcript. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:13 AM

I saw for myself some of the damage done by these little scroats whilst in Croydon this morning. I spoke to many people who are all of one mind - totally against what they have done. It is good that cases are being referred to the Crown Court where higher sentences can be given.

Even Maplins at West Croydon was all boarded up!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:16 AM

The main issue is that people aren't willing to say "Fine, I'll have to take the job at McDonalds". It's money, and that's the important thing.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: pdq
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:20 AM

These spoiled little bastards are saying "give us everything we want or we will destroy everything we can and makes your lives miserable".

Anyone arrested who is found not to be a citizen should automatically be deported. His rotten parents should also be deported if this shit is ever going to end.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:23 AM

Also, not good news. Apparently the person the police shot didn't shoot first. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:36 AM

""Also, not good news. Apparently the person the police shot didn't shoot first. Hmmm.""

He didn't have to. The rules of engagement are that if he raises the weapon and an armed police officer fears for the life of himself, a colleague, or a member of the public, then he is justified in shooting.

If he does not, and somebody is injured or killed as a result, that is in all probability the end of his armed status, and maybe his career.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:38 AM

They are not all from sink estates. A lot of them are just opportunistically along for the joyride, but those added numbers swell the tide of destruction. The problem is wider than sink estates and their related demographics; or quickly becomes wider once you factor in the mob-mentality, coupled with the gimme-gimme mindset and the (spurious) sense of entitlement.


PS: Azizi, how great to see you back! Even if it is such a sorrowful topic - I managed to miss your other recent posts (been away in France). Love Cocojams -

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

""I suspect Don and Bluesman are white and middle class. As am I. Raised by hard working parents who saw to it that I earned my way from age 11 with baby sitting jobs. When I worked I paid "rent". As did my four brothers. We went to school or we went to work. No free rides.""

As you can see from my last post, wrong I'm afraid Sins.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

Now we're seeing the upside. Thousands of people from all walks of life coming together to help clean up the mess. Suddenly we have a sense of community. No doubt our right-wing friends will find a way of denigrating and belittling these people as well.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM

""Now we're seeing the upside. Thousands of people from all walks of life coming together to help clean up the mess. Suddenly we have a sense of community. No doubt our right-wing friends will find a way of denigrating and belittling these people as well.2"

Why in Hell's name would we do that?

Unless of course you are claiming that the ones cleaning up are the same ones who were looting, in which case I'd advise a change of meds.

It is one of the most heartening things to come out of this, that more people seem to agree with me than with you, and as a result the police are currently being inundated with calls identifying the pictures on Facebook.

The other is the action you quote above, lest we forget that the stinking thieves are, in fact, a minority. Good to see the kind of sharing community spirit I was talking about in my last but one post.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM

Don, I'm not sure he was armed either. But, I'm going off one tweet so I'm not in the best position to judge.

Also, my Mum just got in from work. She usually finishes at about 5:30, but people have been asked to go home because there's apparently going to be more tonight. Good thing I didn't decide to go into town and paint models.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:52 AM

This is pretty acute:

Shopocalypse Now

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:55 AM

A future soldier, graphic designer and university graduate were among dozens of alleged rioters who appeared in court.
A total of 99 people have so far been charged with offences connected with the violence and looting in London over the last three days.

At least 40 of them appeared in court yesterday as surprising details emerged of the kind of people allegedly involved.

One was a man who was about to join the army while others included a youth worker and a forklift truck driver.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:58 AM

""Just wondering when was the last (if any) time Don and Bluesman actually visited a 'sink' estate and talked to the people there to find out how hard their lives are, what their aspirations are and how litle hope they have of ever achieving them.""

You know nothing whatever about my life, and less about what I would, or would not do to help people worse off than myself, so to save you having to think, I will tell you.

I grew up in one of the worst sink estate areas in North London, which was also about fifty percent bomb craters. My father did three jobs to support his family, eight hours a day as a shopfitting joiner, and five hours every evening working at a local furniture repairer's, then two eight hour shifts each weekend working on bomb damaged Council properties.

With him as a role model I worked hard enough at school (in spite of spending three days a week at the Western Ophthalmic Hospital in Paddington) to win a scholarship to a decent Grammar.

I started my working life as an analytical chemist, only later realising that a chemist's pay was about one third of what the labourers in the brewery got.

After about ten years I'd had enough, so packed it in and took on an apprenticeship in my father's trade. From then till I retired I have done about every dirty, disgusting, job you can think of and more.

So, your opinion of me is wrong, and worthless (about par for the course).

It might interest you to know that one of the first men to leave court, having been convicted of riot and theft works as a teaching assistant.

So much for disadvantaged youth.

Today's kids are the third generation offspring of the sixties Dr Spock kids. They were allowed to choose what to do at school and were totally undisciplined, and that lack of discipline and respect has been passed down the line, growing more pronounced, and more unmanageable with each generation.

When I was a kid every bloody thing was rationed, and you think I don't know about deprivation.

When things got tough we shared what we had. We didn't go out and steal somebody else's share. We had respect for our parents, respect for our teachers and respect for the local Bobby (who would always help if we needed it).

Most of all, we had too much self respect (and pride), to steal or beg, from the government or anybody else.

What none of you lefties ever want to hear is that Maggie Thatcher did not intend that everybody should grab whatever he/she could.

You all shy away from the fact that she was suggesting that those who could afford to pay their own way would do so, leaving the government more to spend on those who really needed it.

That's what left wingers can't stand, because the concept of the rich paying their way destroys what they want to believe about the Tories.

Apart from my eye problems as a child, the first money I ever took from the government was my state pension. I was actually registered on the list of one doctor for twenty two years without even meeting him.

Now tell me again, what is your objection to the rich paying their way? Because it's always the left wingers that go berserk when the idea is mentioned.

Don T.