Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 11 - 05:57 PM

Lonnie Donegan sang this in UK in, I think, the 1950's and it was VERY popular. We all sang it a lot, and nobody thought anything about it being 'anti-British'. People are getting more touchy and paranoid by the year!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Taconicus
Date: 27 May 11 - 06:14 PM

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they'd still love it.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 11 - 06:19 PM

Maybe, Taconicus, but they'd have to be quite old to remember 'skiffle' and Lonnie Donegan! And everything has to be 'Politically Correct' now, I can well see why this thread was opened, you daren't say boo nowadays in case you offend somebody. Are we all really so over-sensitive? If so, it's very sad!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:11 PM

So, DC... you'd be happier if I thought you a clueless idiot? ;-)

Hey, everyone else does ;-)

So, we've come to the conclusion there are no unsingable songs? And those who say there is such a thing in all situations are wrong? Glad to hear it.

Back to the rum I go.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:25 PM

....... they'd have to be quite old to remember 'skiffle' and Lonnie Donegan .......

I remember 'skiffle' and Lonnie Donegan and from what I've seen and heard of UK folk music, I am very much of average age.

For my own part, not only do I not want to hear the Fields of Athenry but I am also getting rather tired of the parody in which the singer claims to be fed up hearing it.

Also, I wouldn't be upset if I never heard "Ride On" again.



DC

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:32 PM

The tune for Battle of New Orleans is often played in bluegrass sessions in the UK. I've heard the song a few times.

I can't imagine patriotism ever having the sort of chilling effect Taconicus imagines. And why would attitudes to "The Battle of New Orleans" be any different in Scotland from those in England? - America was just as much Scotland's enemy as it was England's, and Scottish regiments fought there (in fact they may have been the majority of the troops on the British side).

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:36 PM

Since the rum means I can write this and not worry about the response:

If you boo/tut/complain when a newbie sings a song that's over sung then you've yourself to blame when said newbie never returns. One of the things I've noticed most about the sessions I've been in is how forgiving everyone has been - I know ~5 songs and they're quite well known (If you care: Hanging Johnny, General Taylor, Bright Morning Star, Donkey Riding, Two Sisters are ones I feel confident singing at a session) - but even when I sang them all at a session which Ms YorkshireYankee attended, even when I'd sung Hanging Johnny the week before at the other club she frequents there was no tut (as well as others who may be aware of my limited range of songs).

Even forgetting the words and saying "Sorry, words are gone. I'll get my revenge later" mid-song was forgiven.

The fact is, I wouldn't be going to sessions if I didn't feel comfortable there. Yes, we all make the joke about me being allowed there because I'm the baby, but the fact is that I feel happy singing the songs I'm not leading because I'm not berated for singing it wrong.

I've come from a classical(ish) background, where following the music was paramount and making it up isn't allowed. Harmonising at a session is the freedom that I've needed for a long time, especially because I'm learning new songs and realising that I can do other stuff with composition. Classical music makes life quite simple, whereas I feel the freedom in a session to sing whatever the hell I like. I'm learning Broomfield Hill at the moment, and I wouldn't have dreamed of playing what I'm playing before the folk stuff because "It wouldn't have been the proper chords".

The long and short of this is that if someone is coming to your session, be it a singaround or a free for all, you need to let them sing. If they sing something like Wild Rover, you should be putting on a brave face and singing along. Don't say something like "Well that isn't sung often", because you'll scare off the new blood, and I worry about what will happen to the sessions in the next 10 years if new blood isn't added in - and I'm only 19.

Just a few rum addled thoughts.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:07 PM

Dear YorkshireYankee: "I could possibly see someone getting away with singing the second one at our singaround, but not the other two."

Could you perhaps explain why? (Rest assured I'm not asking with the intention of getting into an argument, I'm genuinely curious.)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Bert
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:30 AM

Re: Battle of New Orleans.

When singing this in England one could always preface it with the facts.

Of all the soldiers in the British attack most were killed or wounded. There were only 22 soldiers left who 'Ran away'.

Although it was an overwhelming victory, it certainly wasn't the rout suggested in the song.

Good song though, who cares about the facts.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:44 AM

"I listened to the songs at the links you provided (Hog-Eye Man, The Old Man From Over The Sea, and Good Ship Venus), and I could possibly see someone getting away with singing the second one at our singaround, but not the other two."

Hi Yorkshire Yankee, that intriguing as I've heard all the above ribald offerings sung at open pub sessions (never been to a Rugby club), where the participants will happily join in with the bawdy lyrics with gusto. I suppose it's a case of understanding the group and being aware of what others might find either entertaining or offensive.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:52 AM

"Don't say something like "Well that isn't sung often","

DrugCrazed, that's a good point. And I think as others may have already said, many of the so-called 'oversung' songs, you actually never hear sung at all.

Now if you've been going to clubs for sixty years you may have heard them a lot, but if you've only been going since such 'oversung' favourites have long since fallen out of favour, the likelihood is that you'll only ever get to hear parodies of those songs 'oversung' today.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 28 May 11 - 06:57 AM

Yay, my rum addled self made sense!

And I still agree with him. Yay!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: threelegsoman
Date: 28 May 11 - 07:24 AM

Timing is everything. These songs which you say get the audience groaning are usually ones they know well and early in a performance they want to listen rather than join in. However, later in the performance, especially if it is in a pub, having loosened up they will join in with gusto and enthusiasm the self same songs.

Read your audience. Judge their disposition and choose your songs accordingly. Rather than performing a set programme, ask for requests and if one such song is requested and gets the 'groan' from the rest of the audience, decline to sing it, but if there seems to be a call for it, sing it and encourage the audience to join in with you.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 28 May 11 - 04:21 PM

Lively: "I suppose it's a case of understanding the group and being aware of what others might find either entertaining or offensive."

Precisely.

That's really what it all boils down to, and what I believe the OP was trying to get a handle on when he started this thread, which is to his credit, IMHO.

When I attend a sing for the first time, I try to get a sense of the group and what they will/won't enjoy before jumping in with a song. I find each group is different and has its own (usually unwritten) rules/guidelines. You CAN "break" these "rules" -- no question about it. But, just as with most things (art, sports, cooking, etc) I find it's best (i.e the results tend to be better) if you understand the rules -- and understand them well -- before you break them. Also, break them carefully. Generally, if you are going to "break" a "rule", it's a good idea to:
1) KNOW you are doing so
2) Do so sensitively (for example: set it in context and /or explain why you have decided to do something which may upset/offend/bore/annoy others)
3) Know what the consequences may be (a moment's embarrassment, complaints, humiliation, ostracism, etc.)
4) Be sanguine about/prepared to accept the consequences

If you have unintentionally done something folks don't like, I think generosity and understanding are called for -- especially if you are a newbie. We all make mistakes and/or misjudge things from time to time. However, if you do so repeatedly, or do it just for the hell of it (or for the fun of winding people up) and don't care what others think, then don't be surprised or unhappy if/when you get negative consequences of one kind or another.

Richard from Liverpool:
Hog-Eye Man and Good Ship Venus are full of pretty crude language (including the "n-word" in Hog-Eye Man, which is fraught in & of itself). The Old Man From Over The Sea is racy, but not quite as crude as the others. You might say that TOMfOtS has many double-entendres and one single-entendre (the word "screw", which is a fairly "mild" one, as things go), while H-EM and GSV are full of single-entendres -- and not such "mild" ones as "screw".

If I sang H-EM or GSV at any of the various sing-arounds/folk clubs I usually attend, I think there would be nervous laughter and that folks would be a bit shocked (tho they prolly wouldn't say so). They might still clap afterwards, and prolly no-one would say anything nasty to me/in front of me (except perhaps as a "joke"), but I'm sure it would be a hot topic of conversation afterwards! ;-)

I might just get away with TOMfOtS -- if I followed my no. 2 tip above -- but if I just launched into any of those songs, I think most (probably all) of the other folks there would feel pretty uneasy. Note: this is as opposed to a racy/"naughty"-but-not-too-explicit song which (in my experience) seems to go down well almost everywhere.

In the end, it all comes down to what Lively said about understanding your group. Since I want to sing songs that others will enjoy, I'm not generally tempted to sing stuff that's going to ruffle feathers. Perhaps that's a failing, but I'm happy with that approach.

Whew! I think that's the longest post I've ever made on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Joe Richman
Date: 28 May 11 - 07:39 PM

The only song on the list of overdone songs(or songs that may have been overdone at one time or another) in this entire thread that I've performed at a folk music gathering in the last couple of years is "John Henry". As no one had done it there in years, it went over very well. Of course I'm in California, not England, so it's pretty rare that I do anything that isn't American. I tend to do songs that you can find in Tony Russell's discography of old Country music records.

In general, the songs I do that don't go over well are ones I haven't worked on enough so that I have my own smooth version down pat. That is especially true of novelty songs.

Joe

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Stan Kelly
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:20 PM

Joe: Dominic's Patriot Game is really "anti" the trad Irish Rebel Song! He was certainly heavily criticized by many IRA hard-liners including brother Brenden. Listen again to the song's conclusion! BTW, Dominic & I once risked violent intervention singing The Sash Me Father Wore at London-Irish folkclub.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:30 PM

I've sometimes thought The Sash to the tune of Kevin Barry with Kevin Barry to the tune of The Sash would be an interesting medley. Never dared to try it though.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Airymouse
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:01 PM

I think we in the U.S. are pretty safe. Most of your banned songs I have never heard of, let alone heard. One of my favorite quotes about old-time music comes from a preface by Mike Seeger to a book of old songs. Mike quoted Almeda Riddle's grandmother as saying that she loved to listen to the Carter family on the radio, but she couldn't stand what they did to the old songs. I certainly wouldn't want to ban the Carter family versions, but I wouldn't mind a rule that required anyone singing one of them to sing one other non-Carter-family version. For example, there must be 500 versions of John Hardy, but I can nearly guarantee you that even in West Virginia, where Hardy was hanged,wherever you go you will hear note for note about a desperate little man who carried two guns every day. No gambling takes place of course, because on the radio you could sing about murder and mayhem, but not gambling.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 12:33 AM

Have not heard Lord of the dance in nearly fifteen years or more!
Streets of London is so dreadfully overdone. Fields of France is agony through every verse to its foregone conclusion. But then spinners songs used to ave the same effect on me.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:37 PM

>> Accents - you can get away with any except RP. Queen's English types should avoid folk singing and join the Swingles.

Slightly late to this particular party, but one of my all-time favourite performances was the 79 year old wife of one of our oldest and grandest peers of the realm - someone a short sharp massacre from the throne - who belted out a cut-glass version of Haul Away, Joe. I never did quite work out where she'd learnt it, though.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:00 PM

Is that THE Stan Kelly of Liverpool Lullaby fame?

Anyway - To all newcomers to this thread, welcome. Don't believe everything you hear about 'banned' songs in folk clubs or even on the good ol' beeb. There have been some on the latter but sometimes for the oddest reasons and as for the former - Anything goes usually even if a little groan escapes some peoples lips :-) In the US there seems to be the idea that us 'Brits' - and I am a typical British Russian/Polish/English/Welsh mongrel - somehow dislike anything said against the Empire. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:27 PM

I suspect they think people here would have the same kind of attitude that they are prone to have towards the States, fiercely defensive, and a bit touchy. It seems to go back a long way, probably at least as far as the break with England.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:03 PM

Beethoven's 5th?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:30 PM

No good words to that I've ever heard, Nobody. But the Ode to Joy from the Ninth is great for singing, and there's a range of other sets of words for it as well.   And I've seen a Morris side using the tune for dancing.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Durham Lad
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:39 AM

There are quite a few songs, by famous, contemporary singer - songwriters, which I feel have been done to death. Out of respect for said stars I'd prefer not to name them.