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delightful way to make music

leeneia 07 Jan 25 - 07:16 PM
Nick Dow 08 Jan 25 - 04:33 AM
Helen 08 Jan 25 - 05:08 AM
Nick Dow 08 Jan 25 - 11:11 AM
Helen 08 Jan 25 - 02:10 PM
Helen 08 Jan 25 - 02:27 PM
Nick Dow 08 Jan 25 - 06:43 PM
Beer 08 Jan 25 - 07:01 PM
Helen 08 Jan 25 - 09:31 PM
Nick Dow 09 Jan 25 - 08:47 AM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 25 - 10:47 AM
Nick Dow 09 Jan 25 - 11:12 AM
Helen 09 Jan 25 - 02:44 PM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 25 - 03:46 PM
Nick Dow 09 Jan 25 - 07:04 PM
Helen 09 Jan 25 - 09:48 PM
leeneia 09 Jan 25 - 11:25 PM
leeneia 09 Jan 25 - 11:32 PM
Helen 10 Jan 25 - 12:45 AM
Nick Dow 10 Jan 25 - 04:27 AM
Helen 10 Jan 25 - 04:54 AM
Richard Mellish 11 Jan 25 - 08:57 AM
MaJoC the Filk 11 Jan 25 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 11 Jan 25 - 05:15 PM
Nick Dow 12 Jan 25 - 01:42 PM
The Sandman 12 Jan 25 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 12 Jan 25 - 06:00 PM
Nick Dow 12 Jan 25 - 07:34 PM
Nick Dow 12 Jan 25 - 07:57 PM
Pappy Fiddle 13 Jan 25 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 13 Jan 25 - 03:22 AM
The Sandman 13 Jan 25 - 03:41 AM
The Sandman 13 Jan 25 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 13 Jan 25 - 08:55 PM
MaJoC the Filk 14 Jan 25 - 10:49 AM
The Sandman 14 Jan 25 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 14 Jan 25 - 05:07 PM
Jack Campin 14 Jan 25 - 07:16 PM
Nick Dow 15 Jan 25 - 02:51 AM
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Subject: delightful way to make music
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Jan 25 - 07:16 PM

Hello. I was watching YouTube videos, and this short one came up:

Pygmy flute

(No doubt somebody will come along and chide me for saying "Pygmy", but I don't care.)

Lately I've been ruminating about western music. What music actually is western and what is not? I think we can all agree that this delightful music is definitely not western. I hope you like it.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 04:33 AM

Brilliant Leeneia I loved it. You have raised a dragon of a question. I think it might be advisable to reduce the area you are questioning , and explain to us if you are concentrating upon that which we call Folk Music in relation to other mediums, and also how far back do you intend to reach in any conclusion. I can wholeheartedly admit that it is not a subject I would like to tackle myself. It would be like chasing shadows. Thank you for the video though.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 05:08 AM

Wow, leeneia, that flute music is tantalisingly short. I want to hear more of that music.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 11:11 AM

I've had another thought. It was interesting to see the musician go into partnership with his instrument, effectively vocalising it. The immediate correlation to me is the vocalisation of the guitar in Blues and other wind instruments in Jazz. It would be interesting to work out what value scale he was using. I mean is it pentatonic or Tetratonic etc. Any ideas? Pentatonic would lead us toward a wealth of western music.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 02:10 PM

There is a longer 3.5 minute version of the video here with more explanation of the technique:

Francis Bebey at Real World Studios

At 1 min 20 he sings a few of the notes individually and at 2 min 30 he plays a longer version.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 02:27 PM

One of my favourite videos is Bobby McFerrin Demonstrates the Power of the Pentatonic Scale


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 06:43 PM

Clever stuff. I can't help wondering weather it was popular music that imprinted the scale in our modern minds. The good old Blues scale we hear over and over again. Interestingly the Sellingers Round tune was imprinted in our minds in the same way in the 16th and 17th centuries.
However after a chat with an archaeologist at Horniman's museum some fifty years ago, she played a reproduction of a harp (style instrument) from mediaeval times that was tuned to a pentatonic scale. Like most discussions concerning musical history we come to a chicken or egg conundrum sooner or later. Leeneia's post may pose an unanswerable question. Not the end of the world music has no race colour or boundaries and all mediums are given universal ownership. We are none the worse for that.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Beer
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 07:01 PM

Wow!! All very very good. Thanks for starting this leeneia.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 08 Jan 25 - 09:31 PM

Nick Dow,

On my full lever harp (i.e. levers on every string to raise the notes a semitone) I can tune to pentatonic scale by flipping the levers opposite to how I would tune from E flat Major to C Major and then every note harmonises with every other note. So normally, I tune the harp with all levers not engaged to the key of E flat Major and then engage the levers on the E, A and B strings taking them from flat to natural, which gives me the C Major scale.

To get a pentatonic tuning instead, I can engage the opposite set of levers, so keep the E, A and B as flat notes, but lift the C, D, F and G notes to a semi-tone higher. Two of the notes are repeated in the scale when I do this, (D flat, E flat, E flat, G flat, G flat, A flat, B flat) but every note harmonises with every other note. I haven't used this for anything useful but it's fun to just play random groups of notes and everything works together.

(I hope I have explained this correctly. I haven't done the pentatonic tuning trick for many years so I might have made some mistakes in my explanation.)


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 08:47 AM

I will admit to knowing very little about harps although the lass who played on my first LP did show me the lever system. The early harp had no such benefit but it does not devalue your post-Helen, there would not necessarily be the option to tune to the pentatonic if it were not in common usage. (That's called sticking your neck out!) Meanwhile the OP and my ramblings are better addressed by Jack Campin, who is talking about Scots Folk tunes. However his quoted references to birdsong bring us back to Fracis Beybey
http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/Modes-tetrachords.abc


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 10:47 AM

We have a detailed description of how to tune a harp on a clay tablet from ancient Mesopotamia. It was heptatonic, using the "Pythagorean" system of cascaded fifths, with standard in mediæval music and still underlies Turkish classical tradition. Pentatonic scales in Western Asia and Europe are 3000 years younger, originating in China and taken west by nomads from Central Asia.

Scottish music has developed from a heptatonic idiom on the harp that would have sounded normal to Nebuchadnezzar to a frequently pentatonic style that coexists with chromatic tonality. Things went every which way after the Renaissance - meantone intonation (incompatible with the pentatonic system) was standard for a long time.

I suspect that one reason for the popularity of pentatonicism was its military usefulness. A lot of the most obviously pentatonic tunes in the bagpipe repertoire postdate its adoption by the army in the 1820s. If a piper is leading a marching column, one way to stop them from collapsing by the roadside in tedium is to switch from one pentatonic mode to another - the implicit chords can change dramatically, reinforced by echoes from forest or mountainside.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 11:12 AM

Thanks Jack. Meantone intonation is an unfamiliar term to me. How ever am I to understand that Turkish classical music would be compatible with Meantone. Would it be too much of a leap to suggest that the same fluidity might exist within Sean Nos style singing for example, or am I way off tune. I am a great believer in looking for practical answers, as your point about exhausted pipers demonstrates. Thank you again for taking time and trouble.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 02:44 PM

I'll have to re-read all of this information to understand it better.

The pentatonic tuning is a quirky trick of full lever harps. It reverses the usual tuning, it's fun, and the harmonising sound of all the strings with each other is really good.

A harp could be tuned to a pentatonic tuning anyway. It's just the modern convention to tune it to E flat Major (3 flats) and use the levers to change to other keys, 2 flats, 1 flat, 0 flats, 1 sharp, 2 sharps, 3 sharps, 4 sharps.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 03:46 PM

Meantone was an invention of the Renaissance where you tweaked the tuning of the scale to make the thirds sound better - which messes up the fourths and fifths slightly. It conflicts with the Pythagorean/mediæval/Turkish system. Singers accompanied by flexible-pitch instruments for post-1500 music (like a lot of trad material) often drift into meantone to get better chords.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 07:04 PM

Just watched a video on meantone with a demonstration. Effectively in equal temperament G sharp and A flat are not exactly the same note and the idea that flats and sharps are the same note is a modern thought. So there I always thought the circle was unbroken! I'm not sure I would like to attempt to play an enharmonic key board even if I could. I have enough trouble keeping my guitar in tune as it is. I am very interested in your comment about singers drifting into Meantone. Could you name an example when and if you have time. By the way thank you so much for the help.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 09:48 PM

The question goes back to identifying the notes being played and sung by Francis Bebey in the video. Is it a pentatonic scale?

Also, regarding harp tuning, I have no idea of the answer but is it possible that some lyres could have been tuned to a pentatonic scale? There are not many strings on a lyre and every note could harmonise with every other note if it was tuned to a pentatonic scale.

I have to confess that I am a self taught harper, with little formal music theory learning because I have had very few "proper" music lessons. (In my next life I am going to be born into a musical family so that I can absorb musical knowledge from babyhood, like learning a language. Please! Just putting my order in to whoever/whatever is in charge of allocating next life spots. :-D )


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 11:25 PM

I'm so happy to see all these interested and informative responses. Helen, I'll be listening to the video you linked.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 11:32 PM

New question: as Helen's video shows, there's a regular beat, but is it in any known time signature, such as 6/8 or 5/4? Maybe a drummer would know.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 10 Jan 25 - 12:45 AM

It might be 6/8 - maybe?


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 10 Jan 25 - 04:27 AM

Sorry I did rather hijack this thread. I have not had a music lesson in my life so I am full of questions as well.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Helen
Date: 10 Jan 25 - 04:54 AM

That makes me feel a bit less of an outrider. Thanks.

It is an interesting and varied discussion about a very, very short but intriguing video.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 08:57 AM

(With thread drift apology)

Nick said
> Effectively in equal temperament G sharp and A flat are not exactly the same note

I hate to disagree with someone so knowledgeable, but it's the other way round. In equal temperament G sharp and A flat are exactly the same note. Just look at any ordinary piano (not a few specialised ones with more than 12 notes per octave).

In other temperaments such as mean tone (of which there are more than one variety) those notes can be different. Some early concertinas had separate buttons. Pythagorean tuning is great for a few notes but soon runs into difficulties. Many systems of temperament have been tried over the centuries, each with its pros and cons. Equal temperament is almost universal nowadays and gives almost perfect fifths but somewhat nasty thirds.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 12:56 PM

Apologies all round .... I distinctly remember hearing on the wireless that, in (I *think*) Bach's day, it was not considered unusual for concert-goers to be able to distinguish between G-sharp and A-flat by ear, and that singers were expected to Do The Right Thing accordingly. This may or may not have been in the programme on Radio 3 where it was stated that Bach's well-tempered clavier wasn't *even*-tempered, though I can only remember fragments of the reasoning.

We now return you to your main subject.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 05:15 PM

"Equal temperament is almost universal nowadays and gives almost perfect fifths but somewhat nasty thirds."

Hmm. In the case of pianos, tuning to strict equal temperament across all the octaves doesn't work. Octaves are "stretched," and the stretching required depends on the type of piano being tuned. It works best on concert grands. I'll let someone else deal with the technicalities...

In the world of harmonicas, and presumably other free-reed instruments, fine-tuning is a variable feast. As a harmonica player I should restrict myself to talking just about those.   Chromatic harmonicas (the ones with a button on one end) are generally tuned to 12T equal temperament. When it comes to diatonic harmonicas, such as 10-hole blues harps and tremolo harps, the story is mixed. Some are tuned to equal (Tombo tremolos and Hohner Golden Melodies, Lee Oskars and Suzuki harps for example), whereas many others, such as many Hohner blues harps and tremolos, are tuned to a compromise between Just and equal. There are even occasional harps tuned to Just, e.g., the Seydel 1847. It's all about making chord-playing not sounding too horrible ;-). Some of us don't rely on playing chords very much, including me (my metier is Irish tunes), so I retune my blues harps to something close to equal. I can't bear that flat third that comes with Just intonation when I'm playing with other people.

As an addendum, every harmonica I've ever bought over the last fifty years has been tuned to at least A441+ or even sharper than that. It makes us sound brighter in the mix but you'd have to have an amazing ear to think that we sound sharp!

Theory is all very well... Coming up, my rant against metronomes... ;-)


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jan 25 - 01:42 PM

Thanks again everybody. I am glad to say that this thread has allowed me to learn in public. (I'm not so knowledgeable then Richard) Until four days ago I had never heard of Mean tone. For my money this is Mudcat at it's best. I have been busy researching tunes for Steve Gardham's new book 'A Yorkshire Songster'. Quite a few tunes can be traced back to very early compositions, and it helps to me be a little wiser on their musical DNA.
Like you say Filk back to the OP.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 25 - 03:32 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
link to wiki.
Apiano tuner once explained to me how the piano was tuned starting with c and tuning octaves, then using circle of fifths, so next all G s, then all Ds and so on, then all As then all Es then all Bs then all Fsharps then all C sharps, then all A flats, then all E flats,Until you have completed.
because the fifth note in equal temperament, apparently is considered by piano tuners as the least out of tune interval., afteroctaves
tuning instrumernts like accordions and concertinas and other free reed, to anything other than A = 440 Hz, is ok if you never want to play with other free reeders, but if you do, being in a 441 whilst others are in a440, sounds cacophonous


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 25 - 06:00 PM

Well, Dick, a harmonica player has to use considerable breath pressure, which can slightly lower the pitch of the notes. Different players have different breath techniques; mine is a gentle huffing and puffing, which makes my instruments last a lot longer, and skilful use of that technique can project the sound just as well as hard playing (we're not that loud...)

I note that your explanation of piano tuning makes no reference to stretched octaves. I think you need to look that up. Additionally, I repeat my earlier assertion that you would never detect sharpness with a harmonica tuned to A441 (or even A442). They are universally tuned that way out of the box. I check the tuning of any harmonica I buy, and I adjust them to A441 or 442 routinely, if they need it.

Do you know the fine-tuning of your concertinas, Dick? Do you check them? Can you tweak them yourself? Many years ago I bought a Hohner Erica D/G button box. The thing is tuned way higher than A442. It's fine!


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jan 25 - 07:34 PM

Leenia, I think Bebey is playing in 6/4 and possibly 9/4. He uses additive meter's and quarter note stops which makes it a bit tough to be accurate, in addition he performs three bars in 3/2 I think. However his left hand keeps a basic common time beat with the exception of what may be the 3/2 bars.
In respect of Western music, 3/2 and rarely 6/4 do occur in British Folk Music. If you consult Bronson 'The Outlandish Knight' is commonly in 3/2, although there are two versions in 6/4 one in Bronson and the other collected by Steve Gardham. This is my attempt at actually answering some of your questions for a change as opposed to asking my own. Thanks for the video.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jan 25 - 07:57 PM

Sorry, I should have added the last note Bebey sings is a skilfull bit of overtone singing. very clever.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Pappy Fiddle
Date: 13 Jan 25 - 01:14 AM

Somewhere I heard or read that a piano is tuned with a cute bit of trickery. The upper half has three strings per note, and they are tuned to concert pitch - 1 of the 3 strings that is; then 1 string 1 Hz lower, and the 3rd string 1 Hz higher.

As an example, A4's three strings are tuned to 439,440,441 Hz.

This means that the first harmonics of A4's 3 strings are at 878,880,882.

Then D4's strings are tuned to 292.66,293.66,294.66.

So the SECOND harmonics of D4 are at 877.99,880.99,884.99

Thus it turns out that the first harmonic of one of A4's strings matches very nearly the second harmonic of one of D4's. When you hit these two notes at the same time, those two strings' vibrations mutually reinforce each other, while the other strings of those notes are vibrating at odds. So those soon die out, while the strings with matching harmonics keep vibrating longer. So the sound begins with a sort of transient noise, but very quickly settles down to a pleasing harmony.

The lower half only has 2 strings per note. I guess this is because the human ear doesn't hear the finer nuances of lower notes so the same trick is used, but it can be done simpler.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 25 - 03:22 AM

Cheers for the elaboration!

I understand that the song "Here's the Tender Coming" is an example of music in 3/2 time.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 25 - 03:41 AM

in my opinion "Here's the Tender Coming" should be sung freely not in a rigid time signature.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 25 - 03:57 AM

steve shaw, you are right 10 cent difference is acceptable,to most people
in my opinion 25 cents is not,ALL a matter of taste, some accordions are tuned 5 cents sharp some 10 cents sharp some 25 cents which gives a lot of tremelo. and is a quarter of atone
this is because they have more than one reed for each note the reeds compared to concertina reeds are thinner and weedy rather like gob iron reeds and are thus tuned not only in a different method but have a small amount of tremolo, between 5 10 cents and occasionally 25 cents
concertinas have one reed, only unlike most accordipns and as i understand are tuned without any tremolo
my concertina is tuned as i understand to a440
25cents is a quarter of a Tone
50 CENTS A SEMITONE


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 25 - 08:55 PM

I use a cheapie tuner to get me in the ballpark, then I depend on my ear to give me the fine-tuning I want. As I said, I'm an approximately equal temperament bloke (a decent compromise for melody-playing in different keys), though most harmonicas I've bought in that compromise tuning just need a couple of tweaked reeds per octave to keep me happy. If you choose to buy very cheap harmonicas, which abound, then you're beyond help...


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Jan 25 - 10:49 AM

The lowest notes on a piano only have one string, and are wound to increase the mass per length (as are the lower guitar strings). I'm not sure, but I *think* using three strings on the upper notes is more a matter of volume than differential tuning.

Oh, and when I were young, spreading the notes was called "brilliant tuning", because it made an organ sound brighter. Our organist did not love the tuners for it, as the slight discords annoyed his ears.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 25 - 01:34 PM

dannecker harmonicas are excellent


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 25 - 05:07 PM

I know. I've bought a number from him. He sets the harps up exactly as you want them. He did only work on Hohners last time I did business with him.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jan 25 - 07:16 PM

Bebey's song is unlike most Western music not so much in intonation or scale, but in being in a descending mode. I can't listen closely enough to analyze it right now, but it seems to be something resembling major pentatonic in its pitch set, but with each phrase leapfrogging down the scale - no upward stepwise movement. This kind of pattern is very common worldwide. The flute acts like a drone, providing a fixed reference point.

This gets codified in Ottoman music where modes can be ascending, descending, or ascending-descending ("arch contour" in Western musicology). All of these occur in Western folk (sometimes in gapped scales unknown to the Ottomans) which also adds a "down-up-down" pattern oscillating around the tonal centre (think Auld Lang Syne). Though descending is not one of the more common ones.

These patterns are big and obvious, no funny stuff about intonation involved.


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Subject: RE: delightful way to make music
From: Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jan 25 - 02:51 AM

Every time you post Jack, I/we learn something else. Thank you. I was unfamiliar with the term 'Arch contour' and have familiarised myself via Wikipedia.
Interestingly the last time I heard Overtone singing (Bebey's last note) was in a recording of an African (can't remember where) woman, that was played at a lecture at Loughborough Uni. I was also thinking in terms of a pentatonic scale at the beginning of this thread. I can hear major pentatonic now you have it suggested.


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