Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 12:55 PM

The argument is set out above that "folk" is a matter of style. It is not. At the theoretical level (1954 or Karpeles definition) it is a matter of derivations.

If it were a matter of style then if English traditional song could be folk music then there could be no Chinese or Russian folk music - because it sounds different.

Further, if it were a matter of style then when Fairport Convention or Steeleye Span or Blue Horses did a folk song then it would no longer be a folk song.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 01:24 PM

"Folk music" isn't a naturally occurring term: it's a theoretical construction to begin with.

It seems to me that it's a matter of style as well as derivation, though there are cultural and regional and temporal styles.

Like early jazz, rap is undoubtedly a "folk" style. It began as an amateur phenomenon (the "toast") far outside the realm of trained musicians. But it was soon commercialized.

But (as I may have said), so what? Not everything "folk" is wonderful, and not everything wonderful is "folk." Except as a game of rhymes and assonances, rap seems unusually narrow simply as a style.

The content of rap is another issue.

If a genius rapper were to devise a rap that rivals Hamlet in depth, interest, originality, humanity, and nuance, it would be brilliant *in spite of* rather than because of the form. I'm waiting.

AS for Steeleye, when they adapt, for example, "Fighting for Strangers," the song *in the abstract* is still a "folk song." But Steeleye's *version* (including the sophisticated arrangement, etc.) is only marginally folk, if that. That doesn't make it bad or irrelevant, just very different from a genuinely trad performance. That would seem to be an important point in any serious discussion, because no Steeleye performance sounds like, say, any Harry Cox performance.

To get back to the OP: "going wrong" implies that "we" are somehow hindering the appreciation of traditional music. I'm not even sure what that means, or if we could mess it up. It seems to mean that lots more people should adore traditional music. Whether they should or not, I'm not certain that there's anything we can do beyond playing it and making it available.

And downloads make it more readily available to a larger audience than ever.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 01:43 PM

Also, I think the OP's question can be fairly easily answered by observing what this thread has turned into.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:29 PM

If you insist on relying on one set of experts you can only expect others to quote another set of experts.

I see no quotes in contradiction of what I've said here, perhaps you could point them out?

*

If a genius rapper were to devise a rap that rivals Hamlet in depth, interest, originality, humanity, and nuance, it would be brilliant *in spite of* rather than because of the form. I'm waiting.

Do you find anything like that in Traditional Folk Song? I think not - thank God - though I recall Martin Carthy's Hamlet song with great affection from the clubs back in the 80s. In any case some of my favourite 'Rap' is very lyrical indeed - and rather quite Folky to boot, like this which Battle Royale fans will be well acquainted with.

Dragon Ash : Shizukana hibi no Kaidan Wo (Climb The Stairs Of Quiet Days

Translation:

Grass and trees become green, flowers colorfully bloom.
Seasons come by again. A comfortable spring day,
With out anything to do I think by myself
in the tree lined street.
The days go by without any break.
I am struggling to manage myself here.
Sometimes, let's live a life
Without thinking so deeply.
Morning comes, the sun rises again.
Outside the window the south wind
blows the pain in my heart.
Shall the tears I shed in the past days
be pulled into my unconsciousness.
what is important is the light,
I'd like to stay here a bit more.

WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
To the direction of the shining light
heading into the open future ahead.
WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
Like pouring water into a vase
my wishes please be granted.


SO The face and the tears
washed by an off season rain
before the rain stops,
GERRA I smile with a clean face.
Like that, goes away ONE WEEK.
With my tired body I take ONE DRINK
At the meeting place my friends are all there.
like every day we spend the night chatting nonsense
to continue on with these days
I flap my wings like a bird.
Everyone is doing their best. Don't lose; we don't have a pinch runner.
Going over the people laughing at you,
catch the dream you imagined into your hands.
Wish to the shooting star after the rain.
Now stand up my friend.

WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
To the direction of the shining light
heading into the open future ahead.
WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
Like pouring water into a vase
my wishes please be granted.

Without no reason I set off my mobile.
In the far back of the noise
can't you hear the voice of the wind
drifting away now where and why.
Obvious though, I listen on.
Like putting your own future over it.
Wanting something to be said about my self, is the same feeling.
My life goes away bit by bit.
Now I possess multiple copies of my childhood dreams.
I make a stupid face
as I brush my teeth in front of the mirror in the morning.
Going outside. I live a day like this.
I'll stop waiting for the night.
Resting isn't bad, charge up your energy.
quietly the city ticks away time.
Connecting our dreams, we make an arch.

Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo

The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day

Under the sky without the breeze,
I reach out to catch tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 03:33 PM

If you insist on relying on one set of experts you can only expect others to quote another set of experts.

"I see no quotes in contradiction of what I've said here, perhaps you could point them out?"

I have contradicted you on many points but you have only insisted that I have insulted you on a personal level and not yet explained why you believe that is the case. I have said, at least twice, that your 'expert' testimony is questionable. Other people have confirmed that this is the case.

Your last post quotes something that you feel is relevant but, upon reading, I find rather pretentious and naïve at the same time. I think it is probably good but not to my taste. How about I quote you one of my favourite songs?

Twinkle, twinkle little star.
How I wonder what you are.
Up above the world so high.
Like a diamond in the sky.

So, now, why, once again, do you believe that your taste in music is any better than anyone else's?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM

I guess it maybe loses something in translation.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Eldergirl
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM

Concrete road, take me home
To the place I belong....

(another little Japanese song)

I think I agree with guest Rev Bayes' last posting.
Where there are human beings, there are disagreements.
Now let's get back out there and sing and play whatever we call Folk to the people who wouldn't hear it otherwise.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:14 AM

The people who've never heard Folk... My God, aren't they the lucky ones! Imagine that level of purity & innocence? Like having never heard of God and religion. I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain...

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Eldergirl
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:37 AM

It's astounding how good we are at misreading stuff.
Wouldn't hear it otherwise is not same as Never heard.
Johnny Collins was singing somewhere. Bloke wanders in, listens for a bit, then turns to his neighbour(who happens to be Johnny's partner) and says This is good.What sort of music is this? So Joyce answers It's folk. To which bloke replies, Nah I don't like folk. This can't be folk, this is good!

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:59 AM

Half a dozen references above tell us that what we need is green hats .... including Al Whittle:-
"I still think the green hats is a good idea."

I wish someone had told me earlier

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:14 AM

I don't want to personally get involved in the 'what is folk' part of this thread.

However both rap and folk share the problem of both largely being underground music and a visitor would be equally unlikely to come across   either genre unless they know where to look, probably more so with rap.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:17 AM

both rap and folk share the problem of both largely being underground music and a visitor would be equally unlikely to come across   either

Oh yeah? Name me one Folk Artist with their own range of perfume on prominent display in Boots the Chemist...

Nicki Minaj Pink Friday Eau de Parfum

Nicki Minaj is worth checking out actually - one of the most gifted & constantly astonishing voices of our time. And her rapping is out of this world!

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:18 AM

Thank you Eldergirl.

I'm glad the title of this thread uses the word traditional instead of folk. To me, the term folk is somewhat murky. To me, traditional music is something that could not only be described as popular or folk music of an earlier time, but also as the product of a natural process that was radically altered first by publishing and secondly by recording (not to mention all the capitalist endeavors that surround those things).

Now, it's not that publishing, recording and passing the hat don't have their place in the preservation and promotion of traditional music, it's just that it's not a money thing. It's a love thing. Publishing and recording have been a very double edged sword when it comes to music of any kind. And if traditional music should become a money thing, then it becomes something it was never meant to be. I think we can see how money has corrupted in the various revivals. I'll never forget the time I saw Bob Dylan in a Victoria Secret commercial. I was like, "You've got to be kidding me!"

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:07 AM

"seriously researched works of social / cultural history by authors who remain essentially, and impressively, impartial throughout.

Harker?? ROFL!

"the basic historical substance of the thing is sound"

Some of Bearman's other pronouncements have done him no favours, but in the case of 'Fakesong' he was dealing specifically with Harker's treatment of statistical data.

And I've managed to find a few other holes in 'Fakesong', come to that.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Eldergirl
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM

Bob Dylan?? What was he modelling??? The mind boggles!
Re. Nicki Minaj perfume, d'ya think Kate Rusby has missed a trick there? Or Laura Marling?
Suzy S-P, I agree with your view on love/money in trad music. As Nicky Johns sings, It's not a bad life
       But you don't get rich..
As for me, I'm there for the songs. A little recognition is nice occasionally, but the songs are the main thing.
Slaid Cleaves, whom I had the great good fortune to hear last night at Hitchin folk club, released an album a while back called Unsung. Songs people hadn't picked up on, that he at least thought were worth putting out there. He was right. If you haven't heard it, then try.
It's the songs that get carried forward. If you like a particular song, get out there and sing it. Keep whatever tradition you are from or in, going. (within reason!)

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM

I still firmly agree with Blandiver's point in an earlier discussion like this that traditional music in England today is the equivalent of model railway enthusiasm, with the key difference that the model railway enthusiasts at least know their toy trains aren't real.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:05 AM

Harker?? ROFL!

I must admit when I finally tracked down Fakesong I was expecting something a good deal more - er - radical than it actually is; in fact, it's rather quite mild & considerate given its reputation. Stats? WTF??? None of which gets away from the fact that Folk is a middle-class academic fantasy of working class culture born of an bourgeois class condescension replete with quite terrifying implications of pure bloodlines that are very much with us today. Steve Roud was on here a few weeks back saying that because 'Shoals of Herring' had been 'collected' from a bona-fide traditional singer it was now a traditional song.

I quote : It's not the origin of a song which makes it 'folk' or 'traditional' but what happens to it if it is picked up and sung/passed on within a tradition.

ROFL? I tell you, the more I read of the orthodox folk law the more it depresses the hell out of me, but that's nowt new.

(Still miffed that I couldn't get a seat at the your New Penguin Fylde show though, Brian - apologies for lack of cheer outside the North Euston; I was so ill that weekend I was very nearly hospitalised on the Monday...)

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:01 AM

> terrifying implications of pure bloodlines that are very much with us today

Funny, I've never heard of these from any folkie or read about them on any LP jacket. Quite the contrary in fact.

Yet, because I know the world of tenure-track academia, I understand these presumed "terrifying implications" are quite "unconscious" and therefore don't require any objective evidence of their existence.

But what about Nazis?

The Nazi use of genuine folksongs as sound-track says nothing about the songs. Lots about the craftiness of Nazis, though.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:08 AM

because 'Shoals of Herring' had been 'collected' from a bona-fide traditional singer

Wasn't it written in 1960 by Ewan MacColl?

the fact that Folk is a middle-class academic fantasy of working class culture

Not a fact at all, as discussed earlier. An opinion. Even if I were to agree with the opinion that the collectors had made it so, the songs themselves predate the collectors. What were the songs called before they were collected? Subsequently collecting in this way has been rendered obsolete so the situation no longer exists. The 'folk' definition still exists and, as far as I am concerned, it is a good a one as any :-)

What we seem to be discussing, yet again, is the definition of folk which has been, to be honest, done to death and holds no further interest for me and a lot of others. What exactly is it you are saying, Blandiver? That the definition is a concept brought about by that middle-class bourgeoisie you refer to or the music itself was invented by them?

And I still don't know what you took exception to earlier :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:16 AM

Hi, SPB Co-operator. I want to get back to your original question. You wrote, "if a visitor wants to hear traditional music in London he/she has to go to great lengths to find it."

In my experience, it's not just London. I won't belabor that point.

Thoughts on that:

The young are brainwashed to believe that trad isn't cool. To keep their 'street cred,' they must sneer at it. But give them some good trad, and they will probably like it. You've seen that yourself.

Related to all that - it's hard to get newspapers, etc to list our events because they are not 'cool.' Our city paper blandly proclaims that it can't list trad in the Event Calendar because 'the computer doesn't have a heading for that.' Yeah, right!

We need new ways to get the word out.

In broadcasting and recording, profits flow through copyrights, ASCAP and BMI. If a song is public domain, what's the point?
=========
I've been on the Mudcat several years now. What do I see?

Snobbery. The instruments of the working class (banjo, accordion) are sneered at constantly. More so for the inexpensive instruments (percussion, harmonica) that a beginner might timidly acquire and bring to a session. Prestige instruments - violin, harp, flute - just can't go wrong.

A person who has lyrics on paper is despised. I just talked to a teacher who told me that today's kids strongly resist memorizing anything. Concepts and theory are fine, but memorizing is old-fashioned and insulting. We're gonna have to get over our horror of paper. (How long has this been going on? Do today's 40-year-olds refuse to memorize? Could be.)

In dance music, the guitar, a beautiful instrument, is relegated to going blangety-blangety blang ALL THE TIME. (Why? because every piece has to be played fast.) This gets tiresome after 30 years.

Some people don't seem to realize that the era of woman-hating and the era of ethic hatred is over. i.e., "Take your tiresome old music-hall songs about paddies and prostitutes and put em where the sun don't shine."

Too many 'folk' songs are depressing. Between war, drugs, murders, child abuse and economic hardship, people are depressed enough already.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM

Funny, I've never heard of these from any folkie or read about them on any LP jacket. Quite the contrary in fact.

It's there in the implication of a 'traditional singer' who is 'part of a tradition'. The very notion of a 'tradition' in this sense implies a sense of purity - something that goes back to Sharp who dismissed certain NW Morris Traditions as being impure, much as Fluffy Morris (the only truly Traditional Morris?) is disparaged by the Black-face-'n'-Feathers-We're-Not-Racist-Honest Morris crowd today.

Wasn't it written in 1960 by Ewan MacColl?

It carries a Roud number because it was collected within such a pure-blood tradition as mentioned above. One has to be BORN a Traditional Singer, and even then you stop being 'A Real Traditional Singer' once you've had an education - as Jean Ritchie reminded us on this forum of a comment made about her by Maud Karpeles.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:41 AM

The only thing we could do "wrong" would be to abandon playing and taking an interest in the music because it's (allegedly) too racist, nationalist, sexist, bourgeois, old, simple-minded, misleading, boring, whatever.

As very few people who've had much exposure to it believe.

But let's say, just for discussion, that Harker is right: the collectors were ambitious, condescending fakers determined to invent a merrie English and Scottish and Irish and Welsh past that never existed, just to line their own pockets and promote their own smug, pathetic fantasies about the past and nationalist supremacy in the future.

So, as I'm often compelled to ask, what?

What's that got to do with the experience of hearing traditional songs themselves, particularly those hundreds that have been recorded by modern collectors without any "bourgeois" alteration at all?

Traditional tunes, at least, which seem to be beyond political criticism.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:44 AM

PS:

What we seem to be discussing, yet again, is the definition of folk

No we're not - I'm not anyway. I think it's very clear what Folk means in this (or any other) context. What I'm talking about is its inherently academic / theoretical nature on account of its somewhat peculiar origins and the persistence of those paternalistic notions today.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:48 AM

"the model railway enthusiasts at least know their toy trains aren't real."

So are we to accept that the songs aren't real either? I've never bought all the surrounding paraphenalia myself, but the the songs themselves are undoubtedly real, and remain relevant so long as anyone wants to listen to them.

"apologies for lack of cheer outside the North Euston;"

Yeah, I thought you weren't your usual irrepressible self. Hope you're over it now.

Re 'tradition', I think I'll stick with the usual definition, rather than a made-up one about 'purity'.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:02 PM

Still don't understand, Blandiver. Must be having a particularly bad day.

What I'm talking about is its inherently academic / theoretical nature on account of its somewhat peculiar origins etc.

So, are you saying that the term 'folk music' is inherently academic, which I would agree with although I have no issues with academic definitions. Or are you saying that the songs that many of us class as folk music are inherently academic? Words of one syllable would probably be best for me at the mo.

As to the 'persistence of paternalistic notions'. Well, if people persist in applying paternalistic notions to folk music then those notions will continue. As I said before, we have moved on since C#'s time. I think that those notions only exist where they are allowed to.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:19 PM

"Back in London - traditional music is largely ignored, and if a visitor wants to hear traditional music in London he/she has to go to great lengths to find it."
try google -
http://www.folklondon.co.uk/venues.html
plus many more.
irish tourism is a self fulfilling prophecy. What are people expecting; golf, fishing, pubs, guiness and diddly music. That is what they get.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:25 PM

So are we to accept that the songs aren't real either?

They were real enough in their natural habitat anyway, once they're removed from that habitat they become something very different - once they're subjected to the old academic T+T (taxidermy / taxonomy) and 'revived' by the professional folk artiste. It begins with Sharp's postprandial parlour arrangement of The Seeds of Love and that disparity endures to this day. Contrast & compare Bob Roberts' Gamekeepers with June Tabor's. One is real, the other is a postprandial macramé beat fantasy - howe'er so masterfully realised. I would have thought that difference is something any revival singer is all too aware of in their heartfelt yearning for beauteous potency of Traditional Song & the long vanished ecology thereof?

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,geoff woolfe
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:28 PM

Friday 4th Oct 2013   I'm in London for the EFDSS Folk Song Conference   ( why weren't you there? - yes I know Brian P was....)

Outside Finchley Road station - a busker on whistle playing Boys of Blue Hill ... something must be going right..
OK he could have played a less well known tune......

It's about what we do in the community - not about national identity or 'tourism'..

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:31 PM

So, are you saying that the term 'folk music' is inherently academic

Yes.

Or are you saying that the songs that many of us class as folk music are inherently academic?

No.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:57 PM

> I would have thought that difference is something any revival singer is all too aware of in their heartfelt yearning for beauteous potency of Traditional Song & the long vanished ecology thereof?

You mean that's what June yearns for? News to me. And what if she does?

More likely, she yearns to make music she likes, that people will listen to, and that she can earn some money for making.

But even if revival singers really do think dopey thoughts to themselves, why should anyone care? If, say, visions of the Lucky Charms leprechaun always dance in the heads of Irish folkies, what we get is still the music to take or leave alone.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:10 PM

Ah - OK. I may disagree but as I said before I have had enough of discussing what the term folk music means. Thanks for the clarification, Blandiver. Perhaps one thought that may be appropriate to the original question. I have already said that it could well be the categorisation that puts people off. Maybe if those of us who know that the music is not dry and academic stop proliferating the view that it is, it could help :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Eldergirl
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM

It's very likely that most tourists arriving at Heathrow or wherever , if greeted by a cheery morris tune played by persons in green hats, would think it was Irish anyway.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 04:49 AM

"From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:17 AM
Oh yeah? Name me one Folk Artist with their own range of perfume on prominent display in Boots the Chemist.."
.
In the interest of accuracy and fairness, it's not in Boots but - Jackie Oates cosmetic at Lush

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:32 AM

Touché!

And rather wonderful too...

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:45 AM

Haha! Fair young folkies and Lush cosmetics! What a perfect marketing marriage! Now all we need is for Laura Ashley to "re-brand" itself.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:57 AM

Btw Blandiver offering provocative insights here as usual. I'm fairly sold on the paternalistic condescension theme where of the origins of the academic concept of 'folk' is concerned. Less so on the model railway analogy which I see existing more where a specific belief in the "continuance of a tradition" also exists, rather than simply in contemporary people singing old songs. If I participate in an am dram production of The Merry Wives of Windsor, it's not under the illusion that I'm maintaining some archaic dramatic 'tradition' I do it for the sake of doing it and nothing else. LIkewise singing, of anything at all; be it Handel, Little Dragon or those funny old traditional songs. It's the context of a 'folk scene' which believes itself to be preserving and continuing some ye old tradition. that turns the songs into LARP.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:02 AM

That said, it's all good! People need the escapism both LotR, LARP and 'Folk Music' provides for their health and sanity; rustic bucolic fantasies get trashed altogether too much!

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:32 AM

I'm not trashing it, CS - no more than I'd trash model railways - I just think it's important to be aware of that & keep it in perspective by way of honouring the absolute supremacy of the source. I sing Trad. Folk Songs by way of Holy Communion, Ritual & Seance with that source - I imagine old guys in the attic running their perfectly scratch built 00 replicas of the long vanished branch-line stations of yore are doing that as well.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:05 AM

Going back to the original question for a moment (and forgive me if someone's said this already - it's a long thread), the point is that, despite all the efforts of Cecil Sharp, English folk song has never become a vehicle for nationalistic sentiment. The folk musics of Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, the Cajuns, the Basques, the Quebecois, etc., have been fiercely preserved by those communities as representations of their own culture, in the teeth of the hegemony of the more powerful nations of which they form a - sometimes unwilling -component.

The other problem for English folk song is that some of its enthusiasts can't get their heads around the notion that what was once the only show in town as far as home-grown music was concerned, is now one minority music amongst many. Though possibly no more of a minority than jazz, classical, death metal, emo, etc., which don't seem to go in for the kind of soul-searching that certain elements of the folk scene seem compelled to do. "If the masses don't like it, it must be rubbish" seems to be the attitude in some quarters.

Then we get the stereotypes of trainspotters and model railway builders (both categories which, fairly or not, conjure up an image of socially-maladjusted, obsessive, middle-aged males) which bear no relation at all to the folk scene that I know, excepting a small number of cases. To pick a few names at random, are Ray Fisher, Nic Jones, The Wilson Family, Janet Russell, Lucy Ward, etc. etc. the embodiment of some railway-modelling type of re-enactment? No, just talented people who find old melodies and the tales attached to them gripping and relevant. I'm with CS here: although there is most definitely a rich hinterland of history and context behind the old songs, the reason they appeal to (some) people to this day are great tunes and great words.

It's also wise to remember that, although for a couple of centuries the old songs were largely the preserve of the rural working class, they were performed in other contexts too, not least on the 18th century stage. And Professor Child's favourite ballad source was the daughter of a professor.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM

Find lots of vitality in and enthusiasm for folk music at LEWES FOLK FESTIVAL which starts today (8th) and runs until Sunday (13th)

In the previous post Brian Peters (He'll be there) cites Janet Russell and Lucy Ward (They will both be there) as "talented people who find old melodies and the tales attached to them gripping and relevant." Agreed, That is all that is needed. We aim to make our town buzz with the very best that we can offer.

I'm just a septagarian old codger who has been around this music for 50-odd years but I am still trying to work my socks off to give it my best shot. I wish others would try to do the same rather than moaning about it on this forum.

http://www.lewesfolkfest.org/

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:49 AM

> "If the masses don't like it, it must be rubbish"

Others say, "If the masses *do* like it, it must be rubbish."

Most of us here, I think, do not fall into either camp.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:54 AM

Even were it accurate at one time, I suspect that Blandiver's MRE (model railway enthusiast) analogy is already outdated. There are a few who you may on occasion hear on the Mudcat bemoaning the fate of *clubs* as some-kind of embodiment of the 'The Tradition' and presumably the only way they can imagine folk music functioning, when in fact music festivals of all kinds - including folk - are thriving and pull in huge volumes of youth! The club model of folk where people participating together in singing and playing (occasionally even traditional songs and tunes) in a pub or function room is I think likely to die out with those who established them. And it's possibly there if anywhere that you might find the MRE worrying about passing along the baton. But I don't see anything pertaining to model railways in music festivals of whatever genre.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:36 AM

I vaguely recall a TV program that seemed to be suggesting that De Valera pushed hard to get Irish folk accepted- perhaps someone can confirm or Reject this
Chris

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:57 AM

I think you'll find that incorrect. The early years of the state, with their introduction of the Dance Halls Act etc, are mostly regarded as creating an atmosphere suppressing to the traditional culture.

In Ireland, by the way, there's generally a distinction between what is called 'traditional music' and what is 'folk'. A Seán Nós singer won't be called a 'folk' singer just as, say, The Dubliners are not regarded as 'traditional' singers. I think that's a helpful distinction.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:58 AM

CS, those of us who grew up playing our music in folk clubs make no apology for our attachment to the format. They may be a generational phenomenon, and the succeeding generations may well have different ideas, but at their best they offer an appropriately intimate environment in which to experience music that often works best on a small scale. All that fevered shushing of popular exaggeration reflects an environment in which the music actually gets listened to (and how my mates in pub bands envied me that!). They encourage participation, both in chorus singing and floorspotting (a contentious one, that, obviously). And, they are a relatively egalitarian way of experiencing a performance by a leading light of the genre, without the high stage and the green room creating a barrier between them and you.

Those might seem to you outdated notions, but personally I don't see a lot wrong with them, and nor do I accept they imply MRE values. I'm sure Vic Smith (whose festival I've managed quite accidentally to advertise), and several others who post here and are involved in successful folk clubs, would take issue with the idea that the format is dead.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:03 AM

I've actually realised why this thread has slightly irritated me and why I probably shouldn't be contributing to it. I haven't actually heard an album of traditional folk music that has blown me away since the Hladowski/Joynes album last year. On top of that, I don't really dig much singersongwriter folk or mumfolk and we all know the psych folk stuff I like isn't proper folk music anyway! I'm actually starting to understand why family and friends beg me to take it off nearly every time I put a trad folk album on. I suspect the next step is to pare the collection down to a few essentials - Shirley Collins, Nic Jones, Ray Fisher, Martin Carthy, Peter Bellamy and not that much more...

Meanwhile I don't think tourist-friendly state sponsored folk music as a symbol of 'who we are' will win many friends. I doubt it would make for very interesting folk music either, for that matter. The possibility smacks of a weird sort of cultural engineering where the heritage industry (of which the EFDSS and so on are arguably already part of anyway) sell something on our behalf that we're supposed to think is ours anyway but that most of us don't actually want. There again, I imagine few of us eat clotted cream teas all that often or play cricket on the vilage green, so maybe it doesn't matter, and maybe Ray Davies was right.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 12:07 PM

Sorry Brian I wasn't suggesting that all clubs are like model railways at all!
Just the idea - that is occasionally expressed on threads on this site - that the club format should be sustained or preserved - not merely for it's own merit, but specifically as some kind of continuation of "The Tradition" - is fallacious. That's the only concession I would grant Blandiver re: his MRE analogy, which in fact I don't buy.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 12:17 PM

"The possibility smacks of a weird sort of cultural engineering where the heritage industry (of which the EFDSS and so on are arguably already part of anyway) sell something on our behalf that we're supposed to think is ours anyway but that most of us don't actually want."

Ugh, every time I think of "English Heritage" I'm reminded of the Battle of the Beanfield and the way they worked with Thatcher's little army to destroy a genuine folk usage of, well, a piece of our supposedly "shared" English heritage. No fan of the industry, and especially it's obsequious preoccupation with toff's mouldy old piles.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 04:51 PM

floorspotting

An upcoming novel from Irvine Welsh??

Model Railway enthusiasts are people too, regardless of any implied cranky eccentric idiosyncrasies which are all grist to the mill.   I see the same qualities in Folk Enthusiasts - and the same relationship between real trains and model ones, which can get pretty weird : around Xmas time I might buy a copy of The Railway Modeller by way of Traditional Seasonal Observance and find myself looking at a picture of a layout unsure as to whether I'm looking at a model or the 'real' thing.

Model Railway Enthusiasm is born of the same Hauntological impulses that underlie Folk. I'd say that was a good thing - but it still pays to be aware of the differences between SMALL and FAR AWAY.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,eldergirl on another computer
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:48 PM

I am definitely Far Away; maybe eve Far Out, maan; and could never be described as Small. Neither am I hankering after the Good Old Days of Yore, etc, most of which were a long way off Good. OTOH I will happily sing an old song or 2 that tells it like it was, to remind us that we are comparatively well off these days(mostly) OR a new song or 2 that might point out room for improvement. or I might just sing a 60's pop song, or something by Hoagy Carmichael. is that traditional enough?
floor spotting: ooooo, look!!