jigs and reels on english concertina

Subject: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 07 - 10:58 AM

Yesterday MAY 12,I I8

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:17 AM

I competed in the over 18 county fleadh,the judge an all ireland champion anglo player,remarked that my playing was lovely.
she also said it is very difficult to play irish Jigs and Reels on an English,but I was doing a good job.I say this to hearten all english players,it can be done.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: RTim
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:32 AM

Playing Jigs & Reels on an English Concertina is obvoiusly easier that writing a coherent english sentence, with good punctuation!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:47 AM

But who won, and what type of concertina did they play ?

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Capital 'E' for English, please Tim. Oh, and 'obviously.'

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: RTim
Date: 14 May 07 - 12:39 PM

Write in Haste - Repent at Leisure!

Tim

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 May 07 - 12:43 PM

Know the feeling!

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 07 - 01:12 PM

Who won is not really important,I did,Iwas the only competitor.
What is important to me, is that the judge, Edel Fox,was very complimentary about my playing.and acknowledged that it is difficult to play Irish Jigs and Reels well on an English Concertina,but I had acheived it.
Tim,than rather than that,obviously not obvoiusly.
but you still understood my post.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 07 - 01:34 PM

And "than" rather than "that" and I think that comma is redundant.

Apart from that...
Since Irish Anglo playing seems to completely ignore the built in structure of the instrument it can't be exactly easy either. I've heard it said that the reason that the Irish took up the Anglo was because it was mass-produced, cheap and readily obtainable whereas the English was an expensive, middle class parlour instrument.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 07 - 04:58 AM

Why run a competition that only has 1 entry ?

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 May 07 - 05:09 AM

The Irish have a perverse mindset that usually seems to make instruments do what they don't want to do- the bagpipes naturally play continuously, so they stopped them on the knee. You need to breathe to play the flute, so they chose an uninterrupted legato style. The B/C or C/C# box is played of course in D and G. And the Irish language is almost all consonants when written, but practically none are pronounced.

They used to run a miscellaneous instruments section for things that didn't fit into a regular competition- a friend once "won" the section at a local fleadh for playing the Continental chromatic accordeon, which he did very well.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 07 - 06:40 AM

I'm sure that we are all delighted, but does an Englishman tell people how wonderful he is, or leave it to others to do that?

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 May 07 - 07:14 AM

Well, Richard, if there's nobody else...

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 07 - 07:28 AM

To guest,the competition had two entries the other person didnt turn up,.
the point is that you are providing music for people to enjoy,the people in the room enjoyed it,some of them were under 18 anglo players,it is good for them to hear music well played and on the English Concertina,[broadening of the horizons],showing that it can be done, ridding people of misconceptions.
Richard Bridge,it was Edel Fox that praised my playing,so I think I can say,that I am leaving it to others.
and whats all this squit about Englishmen,That sounds like a racial stereotype.
Finally I enter these competetions,because I enjoy playing music [I also believe Comhaltas is worth supporting]we are all open to improvement [myself included]and the adjudicators comments are often a way of doing this,particuarly when the judge is someone of the calibre of Edel Fox.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 May 07 - 07:39 AM

No disrespect intended, Captain.

Good on you...

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 15 May 07 - 08:08 AM

What some people call "machine-gun ornamentation" is, I'm told, easier on the Anglo because the same note is sometimes available from more than one button. Therefore the first and middle fingers can produce the note alternately without colliding.
   For some reason I find jigs easier than reels in general on the English, and I believe some other players do too.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: treewind
Date: 15 May 07 - 08:09 AM

Long ago, when the only concertina players I'd ever heard were Alistair Anderson and John Kirkpatrick, I assumed the English concertina system would be the natural one for playing Irish music and was gobsmacked when I first heard Irish music played on an Anglo.

Mary and I are working on a set of tunes for two concertinas, one English and one Anglo. The aim is to make it sound so that you can't tell which is which.

We won't be entering any Fleadh competitions with them.

Anahata

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 May 07 - 09:43 AM

Why run a competition that only has 1 entry ?

Thread drift but a mate once entered a vegetable show with a cabbage. It was in truth a poor specimen and the judge gave it a third - even though there was only one entry - saying it was only worth a third prize.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:46 AM

folkie ,dave, Ohowever I was not given third, or told I was a poor specimen.,in fact it wasthe opposite.
Threaddrift,I was right about Sheffield United,commiserations,in fairness, West Ham should have been deducted points.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: GUEST,fishfinger
Date: 15 May 07 - 12:58 PM

i haveno connnection8,with the esteemed captain,but wis4h to congratulate him# on his cOnceRtina,playing. you're finger5s mustbe,so accurate wen striking the keys. =

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:00 PM

Dick I did make it plain - that I was not having a go at you by marking it thread drift. I was not drawing an analogy.

I am sure you did very well.

As for the Blades at least they are consistent - they always let you down.

Subject: RE: jigsand reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:24 PM

bit like Charlton,Its been a bad year for me too. Dave.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 15 May 07 - 08:16 PM

So were you entered in the miscellaneous class or was it an actual English concertina class?

Have been a Comhaltas member in the past till they wanted too much for PLI and our Branch packed up.

They put guitar in misc as its not a traditional instrument... huh! But the banjo has its own class and its a lot younger in invention than the guitar... huh... doh!

Have met Edel Fox, she was a member of the Echoes of Erin tour when it came to Oakengates Theatre in Telford. The musicians and dancers were all Fleadh medal winners and superb players.

There seems to be the mind set that the English concertina cant produce Irish music... rubbish, its just snobbery on the part of Anglo players.

And dont pick up on my spelling, punctuation etc, its very rude. We are here to express ourselves and are not in an English grammar lesson.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: GUEST,Martin Ellison
Date: 16 May 07 - 04:33 AM

I can think of no reason that would preclude English concertina, in the right hands, from playing Irish music but perhaps it's a bit like the old piano accordion vs melodeon/anglo for English dance music. Dancers seem to like the lift inherent on a push-pull instrument. It's very easy to play the English conc/piano accordion in a less than rhythmic style whilst the push-pulls almost impose a rhythmic style (of course this can be c*cked up too if you try really, really hard).

Fliss, I wouldn't dream of picking you up on spelling etc - you're quite right, it is rude. So I won't. (notice apostrophe in "won't" same as in "don't" - I'm joking honestly)

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 07 - 05:35 AM

no. I just entered over 18 concertina,there are no stipulations as far as I am aware,about what kind of concertina should be played.
Madeline o Dowd was an all ireland champion, concertina player,who played the English.
However I suspect that generally the scales are weighted in favour of the Anglo rather than the Duet or the English.
I have thought about entering under Rogha gleas [assorted],but Iam not too bothered about winning,more concerned about getting constructive criticism from adjudicators,and enlightening people that the English can be played well for Irish Music..
my personal opinion is that it is equally good for jigs,hornpipes ,slipjigs, polkas, slides,more difficult for reels ,but better for airs.
having said all this,it is really the player rather than the instrument that is important.
John Clifford used to play with alot of drive on his Piano Accordion when playing Sliabh Luchra Music,although he had started on button box and later changed to Piano Accordion .

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 16 May 07 - 05:49 AM

Thanks Martin. I think its usng text on mobiles that's made me lazy with the apostrophe.

Cap'n - I went to a melodeon workshop the other year and played my English concertina. It was good for learning the bounce.

The trouble with being in Soggy Shropshire is that, however good our session is, we are playing in a hybrid style rather than, for example, Kerry style. Im a reasonable player now, but still not good enough to recognise different styles.

It took me ages to be able to play reels, jigs I find ok. Think its the fingering that holds me back ie if I have to play 3 notes on the same side of the box eg D F# A in sucession I get tied up in knots.

It didnt help that I was taught as a child to only use 2 fingers to play the notes and to use 2 fingers under the support ledge. I have had to relearn using 3 fingers.

Its still a lovely instrument to play and I do love Irish music.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: stevethesqueeze
Date: 16 May 07 - 06:27 AM

I play jigs and reels on an english concertina and it turns out very well. I spend a lot of time in ireland and I find english systems turn up more often than one would expect. I've heard captain Birdseye play and have his books and very good they are.

The anglo was much more available due to the large numbers made and distributed by Lachenal and clones like that and they were available more cheaply thats a fact. English models tended to be higher quality and therefore expensive in the main and its no surprise that in rural areas the anglo was played much more because it was cheap and available. Thats why it is the traditional instrument for morris in england, not because eof any inherent advantage or disadvantage in the systems, simply due to availability and price.. Stuart Eydmans work on the concertina in Scotland is interesting as the english system was certainly the system of choice for working class people which is interesting. I think thats down to the keys.

Each of the systems can play great music in the hands of experts and each of the syetems can sound terrible. Its a about the player I think.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 16 May 07 - 07:00 AM

So what makes an instrument traditional then?

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 07 - 07:09 AM

Fliss,
what fingering do you used for d fsharp a,.I would probably use d ist finger,f third finger,A second finger,or occasionally A First finger ,[that is dfa on the right hand side]practice arpeggios over and over, well maybe for five minutes every day.
my partner is a melodeon player and I guess that helps me too with bounce.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 07 - 07:55 AM

"So what makes an instrument traditional then? "


Tradition?

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 16 May 07 - 11:49 AM

I was hoping for something a wee bit more elucidating than that!

In the context of Irish music, is the Anglo traditonal but not the English? Does it really matter? Is it permissable to use any kind of instrument that comes to hand?

Should there be a special kind of melodeon for Irish music, one without the left-hand row?

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 07 - 12:56 PM

of course it is ,bouzoukis are not irish,banjos are american.
some button accordion,players play their basses,.
C SHARP D,AND GD players have more scope,some b c players play in c as if they were playing a one row[that is if theyhave a box where the basses havent been retuned ]
FlissThis afternoon whilst playing I decided to pay attention to how I was fingering D arpeggios,on two tunes. when the arpeggios were upwards,I played D ist finger, Fsh thirdfinger,A second finger,however on a downward arpeggio in Gallaghers frolic,I playedA first finger,Fsh third finger, D first finger.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Tootler
Date: 16 May 07 - 06:36 PM

Is it permissable to use any kind of instrument that comes to hand?

Isn't that what actually happened in the past? I get a strong feeling that there is a often a load of nonsense talked about what is traditional and what is not for playing folk music.

By the way, well done Cap'n. I suspect that you may have had to play better than an anglo player would to get the comments you did.

I tried the EC out before settling for the Anglo. It was simply I felt more comfortable with the Anglo. The one thing I learnt from the very brief contact is that although the two types of concertina may look and sound similar they are in fact two completely different instruments and that is not often appreciated.

By the way as a matter of trivia, the EC seems to be the dominant type here in NE England. It is possible to argue the influence of Alistair Anderson, but I wonder if it is more than that as the Piano Accordion seems to be more common than the melodeon.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:07 AM

Is it permissable to use any kind of instrument that comes to hand?

Isn't that what actually happened in the past? I get a strong feeling that there is a often a load of nonsense talked about what is traditional and what is not for playing folk

Yep, that's what I think too.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Grimmy
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:18 AM

Alfred Williams, in his 'Folk Songs of the Upper Thames' states that any number of different instruments were used to accompany folk singing. The players were usually also members of the church 'orchestra'. The coming of the church organ put paid to it all.

The 'academics' seem to have missed that one.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:23 AM

"Is it permissable to use any kind of instrument that comes to hand?"

As I said - that's the tradition...

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 May 07 - 12:20 PM

No, Grimmy, the 'academics' haven't missed what Williams (or Hardy, or Clare, or any number of other people) wrote. It isn't 'academics' who try to tell people what instruments they should or shouldn't play in particular contexts. It is (1) other musicians and (2) organisations like Comhaltas in Ireland and the Mod in Scotland; neither of which are academic institutions. I'm not aware of any organisation in England that formulates rules of that sort; but then, we don't go in for formal competitions that much, and it is formal competitions that require rules. Such rules don't necessarily reflect actual 'real world' practice; Comhaltas and the Mod (and doubtless other similar organisations) recognise this, but they have their own ideas about what is or isn't appropriate and, naturally, the rules they set for their competitions reflect that.

That has nothing at all to do with the 'academics' who some round here love so much to demonise. If people misinterpret what others have written, that is not the fault of 'academics'. Alfred Williams, for instance (not an 'academic', but an authority in his way), when writing in 1923 of the disappearance of the church bands, did not at any point suggest that they ever accompanied folk singing; merely that they did not play only in church. Perhaps they provided accompaniment at times; perhaps they didn't. Grimmy has assumed that they must have, and cited Williams, incorrectly, as his (or her) authority.

As I said, the 'academics' haven't missed the reference; they have, on the whole, managed to avoid drawing false conclusions from it.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 07 - 01:11 PM

Malcolm Douglas.I had the pleasure of hearing a performer play Irish music on a Saxaphone,at the Cork County fleadh.
Comhaltas have no problem with this,it is not Comhaltas that tell people what they should or should not play,as I stated earlier,there are no rules about which system of concertina should be played,
please read my posts properly.
E,f.d. s.s.dont go in for competitions any more ,neither do they run festivals anymore,in my opinion that is a mistake[perhaps if they had more funding they might].
meanwhile Irish music is thriving partly due to Comhaltas.
English traditional music is declining,partly due to lack of government funding,and partly due to EFDSS past incompetence.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 May 07 - 03:48 PM

If Comhaltas do not specify what and what does not qualify as a traditional instrument for the purposes of their competitions, then naturally I apologise to them for suggesting that they do. I have gained a rather different impression from comments made by current and former members (such as Fliss) in this and other discussions; but perhaps I have misunderstood them. The 'miscellaneous' category, so far as I can see from the current set of rules, is open to players of any instrument at all; whether that means merely that they are not sufficiently popular as solo instruments to have categories of their own or whether they are not considered 'traditional' isn't made clear. Doubtless you can set the record straight on that point.

Presumably the saxophone, which I also have heard used for Irish dance music (my purely subjective feeling is that it is generally better suited to English dance music styles, though it can certainly be a very effective interpreter of slow airs) was in the 'miscellaneous' category? I made no mention of concertina systems, as you had already stated that the competition didn't specify any particular kind. I do actually take the trouble to read your comments 'properly', though your style can make that rather a trial. Perhaps you would do me the same courtesy.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 07 - 04:18 PM

if comhaltas were to restrict competitors to traditional instruments,there wouldnt be many competetions,harp and uillean pipes only.
now lets get back to the subject of the thread,.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 07 - 06:23 PM

Malcolm,I can,t set the record straight,I,m afraid.
Apologies for misreading your post.
finally dance music is for dancing,so if the saxophone,is ok for english dancing,logically it should be ok for irish dancing ,.
undoubtedly more technique will be required to play fast irish reels,.
the lad who was playing it is a former All Ireland champion piper,and was playing the Saxophone very well.,so I reckon he will do the job properly.
getting back to the English Concertina,AN IMPORTANT step to improvement[as with any instrument]is listening to oneself,
2.never letting ornamentation interfere with rhythmic drive.
3. remember this is Dance Music.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 May 07 - 07:02 PM

So far as saxophone goes, I was thinking mostly in terms of the balance between ornamentation and rhythmic emphasis; typically (I realise that this is a generalisation and there are plenty of exceptions) recent Irish tradition tends to place more weight on the former and less on the latter than does its English equivalent, though what we know of older styles suggests that this is a relatively recent divergence. The English brass tradition also has some bearing, perhaps; although saxophone is technically a woodwind, the sound has much in common with brass. In theory it should be no more difficult to play an ornamented reel on saxophone that it is on a fully keyed flute (as opposed to the unkeyed variety); perhaps it just isn't very common yet. As I expect you know, saxophone and pipes can make an impressive combination in the right hands.

To return to the concertina. Muiris O Rócháin (sleevenotes, Clare Concertinas, Topic 12TFRS502, 1975) reckoned that it (he presumably meant Anglo system) was generally considered a woman's instrument in Clare up until the 1940s, when the men started to take it up and rapidly became the majority. It would be interesting to know if there was a significant shift in playing styles at that time. Is that something you can comment on?

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:30 PM

I should have added 'relatively speaking' in the above, since of course the home keys of the average saxophone (as opposed to those of the flute) are not those of most Irish dance music. Having never gone beyond making inchoate parping noises on a sax, I don't know what the practical technicalities are, though I doubt if they would present too much difficulty for a reasonably accomplished player. It ought to be easier than doing the same thing on clarinet, which requires more complex fingering when moving between octaves.

Apologies for the digression. Back to concertinas.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:48 PM

While instruments such as the sax do have "home keys" - as indeed do most (diatonic) instruments - instruments such as the sax which are really "chromatic" instruments anyway, have less hassle with the "non-home" keys - remembering that playing in some keys on some of these type of instruments is acknowledged more technically difficult - especially for beginners.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:58 AM

Please excuse the thread drift,three or four years ago I was teaching a lad Bass Guitar,to improve his finger technique I got him to play irish tunes like The Rambling Pitchfork[hoping that his exposure to traditional music might be a good thing].I reckon anyone who masters irish reels on a saxophone will end up with a good technique,.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 07 - 07:44 AM

Malcolm Douglas,I think the shift in playing styles is partly due to Comhaltas.,[Who came into existence1951]they have a system of marking which gives a relatively high proportion of marks for ornamentation.
Competitors erroneously think,the more ornamentation the better.
That is why I find Edel Fox,s comments about too much ornamentation in reels so refreshing.,however there is in my experience an inconsistency among judges over this sort of thing.
If one listens too Mrs Crotty[a 1940/1950 player] there is less ornamentation than Noel Hill or Edel Fox,this could be partly to do with music evolving or partly due to Comhaltas[Idont know if Noel Hill was a comhaltas competitor or not]
MrsCrooty and Kitty Hayes,played/play quite a lot inCmajor and D dorian[Minor]while male players like Chris Droney,play in Gmajor AND Dmajor ,EDorian,this could be because at the time1940to1980 ,women in Ireland did not go out to pubs,Men did and therefore played in the keys that were easier to accomodate the fiddle Gmajor AND d Major.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 07 - 07:56 AM

Fliss.Iwould suggest listening to sliabh luchra music[Imsure you do already]and purchasing the following books Munster bowing styles for the fiddle by David Lyth[ he has also produced a SLIGO style fiddle book ,ColemanKilloran Morrison].Matt Crannitch fiddle book,these give an idea on where to ornament,I adapt the ornamentation TO SUIT The English Concertina,and if I dont like something I leave it out etc.,but most of it I find I like,I also nick ideas from pipers.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:21 AM

Ive been sitting working out which fingers I use for the run up and down, same as you Cap'n. As you say need more practice at it.

I went to stay with my friend in Sligo the other year, Anne-Marie is an excellent fiddle player. Was great to sit in the sessions in Gurteen and listen to people like Peter Horan.

Thanks for the ideas of what tune books to buy. Tend to stick to the Comhaltas tune books at the min.Had the Sligo Comhaltas 'The Mountain Road' CD and tune book from the Coleman centre, but lent it to someone and cant remember who.

Do you find that when you are playing in a session with a piper the sounds cancel themselves out. I find it difficult, especially with my fixed reed if the piper is slightly out of tune. It doesnt notice with the rest of the session players but it does with the concertina.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:07 AM

YES ,But then the piper should try and tune to You if they can. I normally enjoy playing with piers if they are in concert pitch,Ithink the two instruments have quite alot in common,drones can be used successfully on the english for small sections of a tune perhaps two bars or a bar,plus the sound of the regulators can be imitated ,using fifths d and a together,OCTAVE TRIPLETS are nice too.
Fiddle rolls are quite difficult to execute in reels,it is important to keep the two notes you are cutting with, as staccato as possible,sometimes I do two cuts wtith the same note,if Iwas cutting a d [on my left],i might cut d e ded.or de da d[both of these can be done with the index finger,or a proper roll d e d csh d[this involves the weaker third finger for the c sharp note.

Subject: RE: jigs and reels on english concertina
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:17 AM

I have been trying to play traditional music (mostly Scottish) on the C melody sax lately. Key is not a problem (it fingers like a conventional flute) but it isn't very responsive, particularly when the tune has wide leaps - it feels like you have to spit each note individually down the instrument. A recorder, flute or clarinet does fast stuff much more easily.

Maybe a really expensive sax might be better, mine is a Buescher from the 1920s.