Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 02:10 PM

Surely there must be some rules musn't there? If I go to a folk club I would not expect a 20 minute overture from a baroque opera (Is there one?) and conversely when I pay £25 for a ticket to see Status Quo I would not expect Rambling Sid Rumpo. Mind you. they did tour with Steeleye Span! If you want somewhere with no rules at all start a free form Jazz club:-)

But before we are led into yet another flight of fancy, I am not sure what rules have to do with song books or this question anyway though. No-one has suggested that there are any hard and fast rules applied anywhere. Quite the opposite really in as much as everyone, I think, has said they may or may not like song books but leave it to other people whether they use them or not.

DeG

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 02:51 PM

"So you're saying it can be OK for someone to use a lyric sheet -- as long as they're singing their own compositions or nobody's listening?   Otherwise what they're doing is sub-par?"
Nope - nothing like it.
I said that the general acceptance of crib-sheets in public is another step on the road to dumbing down.
"I'll bet "Anon" and that "Trad" guy don't give a hoot."
Oddly enough I never met a source singer of any age who felt the need for a book (we've had The Copper's view on the subject).
If it's a case of giving ground to performers who can't hold a tune, won't put in the necessary work to learn the text, finds folk songs and ballads boring, and don't know if the songs they sing are folk or not - I'd rather rage against the dying of the light - if you don't mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:22 PM

Genie, it's become apparent on this thread that different localities have very different customs and cultures when it comes to singing groups. All I can say is that in the circles I frequent, the accomplished, excellent musicians and singers (especially the semi-pros and pros) would only use a song book in exceptional circumstances. Those who rely on them are, in almost every case I can think of, the less competent musicians and singers.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:09 PM

Look at this bunch of incompetent bozos! ALL of them have got songsheets!

The Wee Magic Stane

I guess we can assume that Jim would never allow any of that lot into his club?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: olddude
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:24 PM

according to the 1954 definition of folk it is not ok to use a song book, nor is it ok to wear anything but blue jeans and a flannel shirt.   Hats are allow but as long as they are not newer than the 1930's style. No electric of any type, even mikes ... If one needs to enhance the performance so people in the back can hear it is recommended that the performer sing inside a barrel so the sound will echo

Alcohol is allowed but if it is hard alcohol it cannot be scotch, moonshine is preferred but bourbon is acceptable

Now any foreign brands of guitars is not allowed, they must be american or canada made. None of these China made brands since the guitar did not exist in china prior to the 1950's.

audience, hay bails for chairs is the only thing authorized to sit on. Anything else and one must stand through the performance

Jokes are permitted as long as they include the line, a farmer had a daughter and a travelling salesman came a calling one day ...

I will enlighten you with the rest as soon as I dig out the rules

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:35 PM

olddude

Alcohol is allowed but if it is hard alcohol it cannot be scotch, moonshine is preferred but bourbon is acceptable

What!? Folk music runs on beer and nothing else, preferably Harvey's of Lewes.

We 'ad someone turn up with one o' they gittar thingies the other week. Wasn't bad, but not quite what we're used to.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:14 PM

Jack: Thank you for a nice list of book use tips, using the "constructive criticism" approach you outlined in the recent thread on this topic. We could use more of that.

Very early in this thread (fourth post?) I hinted that some kind souls might refresh or link the threads of memorization tips for those who wanted to get away from the books. In these hundreds of posts, no soul (abashedly including myself) has been so kind. Let me rectify that now, even though this post will be so deeply embedded in the morass of comments that it will be largely overlooked by those who might benefit:

Thread 32781: Tips for Memorizing Songs
Thread 8098: How do you learn/memorize songs?

Any other useful threads? (Please post additional tips to the relevant threads, not to this one, thanks.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:46 PM

Oh dear me. What monster have I created?

I feel like Pandora who has opened a really big can of worms.

Come on Jim C, are you really such a perfectionist that you cannot tolerate anyone who does not come up to your own perfect standards?

Think about your own humble roots. Have you never, when starting out, had to glance at a song book/crib sheet or fluffed your lines and had to admit you were almost human?

I find it very difficult to accept that the very fact of someone singing from a song book is dumbing down the folk scene or that folk music is withering and dying and is in it's death throes.

From what I have seen in the UK, the folk scene in general is in extremely good health, with an abundance of young musicians and singers having a go and not feeling shackled to some kind of death wish to tie them to an unflexible rule book that would choke them at the outset.

And long may that remain so!

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: olddude
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:57 PM

Hey snail
there was a guy at an open mike here recently that had the audacity to do a train song without completing his mandatory 5 years of hoboing and rail riding first ... I think the folk police picked him up afterwards. LOL

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:19 AM

Warning: thread creep

Walkabouts Verse quoted: "If folkies must test their technique by improvising on/"doing something with" a traditional tune, then, in my opinion, they should begin their performance with a run-through of just the top-line melody – otherwise, there would be no oral-tradition of tunes!"

More twaddle, unless the writer is discussing folkies stretching tunes as radically as is done in jazz, or singing them flattened out in rock style. Improvisation in the trad singing world refers more to the variation of the common elements of the tune, which may be done either subtly or more noticeably. It is not necessarily pitch-focused (like melodic variation in sean nos); in English trad singing, timing variations are often more pronounced.

A "tune" is just a concensus of the musical elements most common to the many renderings of it; it's an abstract pattern. Audiences quite astutely pick up on common elements in recurring passages, so that by the end of a song they will have formed a mental model of "the tune" even if it has never once been performed in that basic form. The oral tradition has little to fear from this sort of improvisation--it's been going on for centuries.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:37 AM

"Come on Jim C, are you really such a perfectionist that you cannot tolerate anyone who does not come up to your own perfect standards?"
No SB, my standards are far from perfect, and reading what I have to say, here and elsewhere, would show that to be the case. Knowing the words and being able to sing in tune perfection - do you, does anybody really believe that; have things really deteriorated that much???
Suggesting that basic standards be applied when presenting folk songs to the general public is only a start, perfection is the holy grail of all art and seldom, if ever achievable.
Have I ever used a crib-sheet? No I haven't; when I set out on this voyage nearly half a century ago I would have been booed off the stage had I done so. People believed it necessary to do the work before they went public - the songs were worth it and anything less was insulting to the music and to those who made the effort to turn up.
People fought hard to get folk song taken seriously and to some degree they succeeded; now apparently, the game wasn't worth the candle and the music doesn't merit the effort any more, and by old dude's vaccuuous comments are a perfect example of why.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:37 AM

To go back to Jack's clip of Robin and Jimmy singing 'The Wee Magic Stane' - this came from a theatre performance to celebrate Scottish protest against the siting of Polaris on the Holy Loch within 30 miles of Glasgow.
Considering that the performers on view include Adam McNaughtan (of 'Hamlet' fame), Bob Blair, Arthur Johnstone, Ewan MacVicar, Ian Davison, Ronnie Alexander - all of whom have performed in folk clubs for many years, without crib sheets - will you take my word for it that the papers they clutch are actually the script for the inserted commentary, and were issued as a running order to provide the cue for whoever was next to perform?
The whole show was scripted by Gordon McCulloch, sitting to the bottom left of the screen.
And a grand night it was too, with lusty participation in all choruses from the audience without benefit of songsheets.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:03 AM

Off on a tangent again...

A few years ago I went to Mountain View, Arkansas. Advertised as 'The folk music capital of the USA'. In fact, on some placards it stated 'Folk music capital of teh world' but lets not get into the US view of the world;-)

Anyhow - It is the state capital of Stone County which is, believe it or not, a dry county! You can be arrested just for having alcohol in the boot of your car. Or should I say trunk? Whatever. So, if one definition of folk music involves alcohol how does Mountain View fit in?

Mind you, there was one fiddle player in one of the outdoor public sessions kept vanshing and then returning, wiping his mouth, with a big grin on his face:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:31 AM

Whoops - should read COUNTY capital of Stone County - Sorry.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:39 AM

Thanks for the links and reminders, Artful C.

But I still don't think the primary issue in this thread is whether to learn (memorize) the songs we perform or how to do that. It's been pointed out over and over that even when you know a song "like the back of your hand" there can still be reasons to have a printed page handy -- for you and/or your participatory audience -- while you're singing.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,muppett
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:44 AM

So is it OK to use other props when singing, i.e. musical instruments or does that detract from the performance? (TE HEE HEE!!!)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:50 AM

Jim Carroll: "Have I ever used a crib-sheet? No I haven't; when I set out on this voyage nearly half a century ago I would have been booed off the stage had I done so. People believed it necessary to do the work before they went public - the songs were worth it and anything less was insulting to the music and to those who made the effort to turn up."

I know we've been over this before, but I'm still a bit confused here.   You say the audiences would have been insulted had anyone used a crib sheet -- thus proving that they had not "done the work before they went public?" But you've also admitted that sometimes people can flub lyrics or go blank even when they've been singing a song flawlessly for years. So I'm wondering what that audience would conclude if they heard such a lyric screw-up from a performer they did not know. Might they not take such a memory lapse as proof that the singer had "not done the work before going public" just as much as they'd interpret the use of a crib sheet that way?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:08 AM

Genie;
Are you really equating using a crib-sheet with making an occasional fluff? The best performers can have memory lapses, no matter how much work they have put in beforehand, just as they can lose the tune or have their concentration distracted.
My argument is that crib should never be accepted as standard practice or be used as a substitute for preparatory work, no more, no less.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:37 AM

Genie: I didn't post the links for those who have their reasons to employ books or sheets, but for those who wish to dispense with or rely less on such materials, make their recall as reliable as possible, and make the memorizing process as efficient as possible. The tips may also benefit those with "oldtimer's", since it may help them beef up the approach they are accustomed to use to memorize things. The more cues you build in--and the more types of cues--the more reliable will be your recall. Some of the techniques I found here were entirely new to me and have helped me significantly.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

Jim C, am I really "equating using a crib-sheet with making an occasional fluff?"
Yes and no.
I don't think EITHER having a printed page in front of you and perhaps occasionally glancing at it OR making an occasional lyric flub makes your performance seem amateurish.

But we agree that "The best performers can have memory lapses, no matter how much work they have put in beforehand, just as they can lose the tune or have their concentration distracted. " And when that happens, it won't necessarily be a minor flub of the lyrics. Key parts of the lyrics or story could be omitted or twisted.

And, except for very informal song circles where the main aims are to socialize and to introduce new songs, I agree that the crib sheet should not be a substitute for knowing your song. I.e., if you are going to PERFORM, as opposed to just swapping songs with friends, you really should know the song you're performing -- well enough that the printed page, if you use it, is just kind of like the aerial acrobat's safety net.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:14 PM

Artful, any tips on memorization are also useful to those who do sometimes have a book or song sheet in front of them when they sing. The better you know your song, the less likely you are to need to use the printed page and the more easily you can glance at it quickly and unobtrusively if and when you do need to.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

"I don't think EITHER having a printed page in front of you and perhaps occasionally glancing at it OR making an occasional lyric flub makes your performance seem amateurish."

It depends what you mean by "amateurish", and that in turn can depend on the genre, the circumstances and the context. For the purposes of this discussion, I think it can be taken to mean behaving in a way a professional would not. For reasons we have already discussed, it would be acceptable in classical music for a professional to have the music and words in front of them, whereas in most forms of popular music it would not (and if they have to be used, performers go to some lengths to hide it from the audience).

In my experience, and in the circles where I listen to and perform folk music, professional folk singers will only use lyrics in exceptional circumstances. In this context therefore, using the lyrics will inevitably appear "amateurish" ie it's the behaviour of amateurs. Now we can't all reach professional standards, but we should at least aspire to, which means working to eliminate amateurish behaviour.

Making a mistake is different - it can happen to both amateur and professional. However the risk element involved in a live performance is part of what gives live music its extra vitality over a recorded one. It's not often a mistake completely ruins a professional's performance - they usually know how to deal with it. Again, this is something an amateur should aspire to.

It's about standards, which Jim Carroll keeps banging on about, and I realise there is a gulf between those who think standards should apply to folk music and those who don't. I'm afraid I'm with Jim on this - I don't expect amateurs to achieve professional standards in all areas, but I do expect them to make some effort to try to do so.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM

I don't think at all it is a given that the goal of some song circles is to socialize and hear new songs. For some of us it is a chance to sing new or old songs together, hearing the best possible music that we can produce. I personally don't need music to socialize by and I don't need socialability to do musical things. I think if we confuse the two too much we get less great music. There is nothing wrong with socializing aorund music, and I think a lot of this discussion is about that, but for many of us it is about the music and not the socializing, which, say at a camp, we could accomplish by eating meals together, going on walks, washing dishes, sitting around the fire. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:03 PM

Howard Jones

and I realise there is a gulf between those who think standards should apply to folk music and those who don't.

Really? Who do you think says that standards don't apply?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:21 PM

Geni;
If you are talking about swapping songs with friends, you may perform them naked while standing in a bucket of custard as far as I'm concerned. Once you let the public - paying or otherwise - through the door then you take responsibility for those songs and how they are performed and received (I'm talking about folk songs, I've no opinion or experience on the presentation of any other forms). As has been pointed out, folk song has a poor enough (sometimes deserved) image without adding to it by it being performed by people who can't sing and can't remember words.
I heard it said not so long ago that the last thing you would do should you wish to introduce somebody to folk song is to take them to a folk club.
"Really? Who do you think says that standards don't apply? "
Unless you consider 'wanting to sing' a standard - you do. It is not; it is an abandoning of standards. Why on earth should anybody who doesn't want to sing ask to? Therefore you are giving your club over to anybody who walks through your door, whether they can sing or not - there really is nowhere else to hide.
Off to the UK for a few days tomorrow; I wonder if I'll find anything worth listening to - no luck so far; here's hoping.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM

From many recent postings here there seems to be a growing emphasis on how 'professional' singers should behave and conduct themselves.
By 'professional' they mean people who present folk songs to the general public, whether they do that for a fee or not.

All of this is very interesting and informative but please do not lose sight of the fact that when I made my opening thread in this debate I was approaching the question from the viewpoint of a 'social' or 'amateur' singer who enjoys far more informal social singarouns and song circles, far removed from the proffesional circuit.

I reiterate where I was coming from again in the hope that I can nudge the prevailing mindset away from just 'the proffesional's perspective and view-point' and back a little more to the perspective of the average man and woman in the street who enjoys joining in with a song or two in a far more informal singaround and social setting (like a good old British pub).

I do this in the hope that some contributors here might look at this question in a slightly different light and might show a little less arrogance and pomposity and a little more tolerance, humility and patience towards their fellow man; warts and all.

As I said, I never approached this subject from the perspective of the 'professional' but rather from that of the jobbing and interested folkie 'layman'.

In fact, if I was a 'professional' singer, I would never have dared to ask the question in the first place because if I was a true professional and was getting paid to sing and that was how I made my living I do actually hope that I would never, or only very occasionally, have to resort to sing from a song book/crib sheet - unless my memory just got so bad but people still put up with me.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:29 PM

Chris,
Most of us are non-professionals and have given our answers as such.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

Snail, there are those who argue that the most important aspect of folk music and folk clubs is participation, and that people should sing.

My comment was not aimed at you or your club, and I am not trying to reopen our previous discussion.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:48 PM

Soldier boy, even if you are an amateur social singer should you not aim to do that as well as possible? That is what I meant about aspiring to professional standards.

Actually, I'm not writing from the viewpoint of the performer, professional or amateur, but that of the audience. When I go to a folk club I don't expect professional-quality performances from amateur singers, but I don't think it's unreasonable expect them to make an effort to put on a good performance. If a performer will not put in the effort to learn a song properly why should they expect me to listen to them?

If someone makes that effort, even if they struggle in their performance they will usually get the audience's attention and support.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

OK..if it doesn't sound good at all, but people are enjoying themselves...I guess that is the question. Do you want to go to this event or not? The question is not is it good for people of whatever ability to get together in a place and time of their own choosing and sing joyously together, regardless of sound produced. It is a poignant question if the event was well attended and perhaps started by great singers and now it is in great decline. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Nick
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

Well Jim, seeing as you are in the UK, if you are in Yorkshire on Wednesday pop in and have a sing and a listen :)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

Mary, what I meant by saying some song circles are mainly about "socializing" and learning new songs is that in some song circles (e.g., a couple I know of in Portland and one in Seattle), the social experience of singing together seems to be much more the goal than the aspiration to make exquisite or professional-sounding music.   In such groups, it is not unusual for the person whose turn it is to launch into a song a cappella without really knowing the tune, with no sense of meter or phrasing, etc., and with the resulting "sing-along" being at times pretty chaotic or comical.   Rather than ask if someone else feels comfortable leading it, perhaps with a guitar to help keep people on pitch, someone will just plow into a song (a well-known one or one that's "in the book"), with some people doing one arrangement while others are doing another.   Suggestions made to improve the quality of the group singing (e.g., "Please watch the lips of the person leading the song so you'll know when to come in on the next line") are usually regarded as impertinences which spoil the camaraderie.   
What I meant about a goal being to learn new songs is that in some groups people enjoy hearing a new song even when the one presenting it has to read it from notes or a book and maybe can't even stay on key.    I have sometimes appreciated someone singing a song from RUS or song sheets, even if they sang it badly, because it allowed me to hear what tune goes with the lyrics or because it was just a really nice song, which I might add to my repertoire.
Unless it's a "songwriter workshop," song circles are seldom solely about hearing new songs, but some workshops at music camps do seem to be more about sharing songs on a theme -- for the sake of the songs and the theme -- than making beautiful music then and there.   
Books and song sheets tend to be used in circles like this, either because the one leading/presenting the song doesn't know it well (and, for that group's purpose, doesn't need to) or for the sake of the group singing along.

I was at a song circle last night where the consensus seemed to be that everyone should sing along on everything if they either knew the song (or chorus) or could find it in their book or notes.   I don't think anyone did any solos except for verses, etc., that they did not know, and I don't think solo "performances" would have been all that welcome.   The group seemed to construe it as a "sing-along."

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:15 PM

Jim Carroll

Unless you consider 'wanting to sing' a standard - you do.

Having slight trouble parsing that sentence. No, I don't consider 'wanting to sing' to be a standard. I consider it a reason to give someone the opportunity to sing.

It is not; it is an abandoning of standards.

No, it is recognising where the responsibilty for standards lies.

Why on earth should anybody who doesn't want to sing ask to?

I have no idea, but, according to you, wanting to sing immediately disqualifies anybody from being capable of doing so.

Therefore you are giving your club over to anybody who walks through your door,

Yes.

whether they can sing or not

How are we supposed to know before we put them on? (He asks for the umpteenth time.)

Howard Jones

Snail, there are those who argue that the most important aspect of folk music and folk clubs is participation, and that people should sing.

Indeed there are but I don't see how that justifies the line - "I realise there is a gulf between those who think standards should apply to folk music and those who don't".

My comment was not aimed at you or your club, and I am not trying to reopen our previous discussion.

Neither was I. I was just responding to something you said.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM

Soldier Boy, I'm glad you brought the thread back to the focus on amateur song circles and sing-arounds, where group participation is often encouraged.    I agree that the better the music sounds, the more satisfying the experience is both for participants and any "audience" that might be present.   But music - especially group singing - doesn't have to sound "professional" to be exhiliarating, moving, fun, or inspiring.    And if the song itself is a great song, that can compensate a good deal for a not-ready-for-prime-time performance.

Mary: "OK..if it doesn't sound good at all, but people are enjoying themselves...I guess that is the question. Do you want to go to this event or not? The question is not is it good for people of whatever ability to get together in a place and time of their own choosing and sing joyously together, regardless of sound produced. It is a poignant question if the event was well attended and perhaps started by great singers and now it is in great decline. "

Well, I don't know the history of all the song circles I participate in, but my experiences is that the quality of music -- and the degree of reliance on books -- varies greatly from one month to another, depending a lot on who shows up.
I have been to song circles where, no, it didn't sound very good and I, for one, didn't enjoy myself much, because of some of the things I mentioned in my last post. There's one group I lost interest in very quickly because, even WITH books in hand, people simply would not make an effort to figure out where the rests were and when to come in on the next line. But other groups can be that way one time and totally different the next. And usually there is more decent, even really good, music made than bad, so it's worth it to me. Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM

even if you are an amateur social singer should you not aim to do that as well as possible? That is what I meant about aspiring to professional standards.

Professional means you're making money at it. That doesn't say a damn thing about quality.

I know a lot of amateurs who could run rings round most professionals in the depth of their knowledge of the tradition they work in. Pros tend to have very small repertoires. The fact that they're also very highly polished repertoires doesn't stop boredom setting in once you're hearing the same act done with the same jokes for the third time. For me, an amateur like my old pal Iain Grant (who could lead off something like 2000 Scottish tunes on the moothie) was vastly more interesting to listen to than any pro with the ability to reproduce only the contents of the five or so CDs that represent their total career.

So, I don't aspire to being a pro. Pros are often pretty boring. I've got higher targets to aim at.

(Sakata's "Music in the Mind", about the musical culture of 1970s Afghanistan, is interesting on this - in that culture it was quite clear that educated amateurs were rated far higher than professionals. The same distinction sometimes operated in early modern Europe, but it was unusually sharp in the situations Sakata wrote about).


The best performers can have memory lapses, no matter how much work they have put in beforehand, just as they can lose the tune or have their concentration distracted.

I would expect somebody who's being paid for their performance to take precautions to make lapses impossible. If there is ANY chance of one happening, they need to have a book handy. It's the professional thing to do.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

Thanks Genie for your sage and practical comments. You make a lot of sense.

I guess that every singaround/song circle/folk club/fringe session etc etc are all very different and that is what to me in the UK makes the whole folk experience so fascinating and varied.

If the scene or atmosphere or reception or rules etc don't tick all your boxes you can try another one quite close by and see how that grabs you. You just vote with your feet and we are all,thankfully, at liberty to do so.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:35 AM

"according to you, wanting to sing immediately disqualifies anybody from being capable of doing so."
Where have I ever said this?
Therefore you are giving your club over to anybody who walks through your door, even after they have proven themselves incapable of singing - and you have no facility for helping them because they are too few in number (I paraphrase").
"How are we supposed to know before we put them on? (He asks for the umpteenth time.)"
Also for the umpteenth time - been through this and you continue to wheedle round it.
Once someone has shown shown themself unable to sing, but willing to do so, you offer them help, rather than your policy of continuing to put the in front of an audience to flounder and drown. That is what any club I have been involved in has always done - that is what your club does not do.
You have moved from your original position of saying that poor or non singers DON'T turn up at your club asking to sing to admitting they 'occasionally' turn up. What did you do when they did?
You sound far luckier than many of the clubs mentioned on this forum who do have problems - wonder if you overawe them into silence; you apparemntly offer them no assistance to improve - or have you been hiding your light under a bushel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:33 AM

hi jack

You may well be right that many amateurs have much deeper knowlege of folk than some professionals.

A professional does not get paid to necessarily have knowledge in great depth Many do !!! ). He is primarily paid the entertain an audience.

I know many people who have extremely deep knowledge but they don't know how to express it in an way that will keep an audience interested and entertain.

On your second point professsionals are after all is said and done only human. They like anyone else make mistakes.

But the good pros have learned how to reduce them and cover most of them up. They also know how to use "balls ups" to their advantage.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:48 AM

"You apparenntly offer them no assistance to improve"

That's a bit unfair, Jim. The club Snail & Co run is pretty unique in the number of workshops it puts on throughout the year, an initiative that is surely to be applauded.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe at large
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:49 AM

Sorry, me above

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:42 AM

Jack, I'm not suggesting that all singers should aim to become paid professionals. I'm saying they should aspire to the highest standards, even if they fall short. Most professionals, if they are to earn a living, have achieved those standards (I agree there are a few who make you wonder how they do earn a living, but I've never come across any with the limited repertoire you describe). You've sort of made my point by pointing out that a great many amateurs do achieve the highest standards.

What I am trying to say is that anyone who puts themselves forward to sing in public should strive to do that to the very best of their ability. At the very least that means taking the trouble to learn the song, of which memorising the words is simply a part.

What really pisses me off is when someone gets up, with folder and music stand, and says "Here's a song I learned this afternoon" (or worse, "Here's a song I wrote this afternoon") when they're clearly not ready to perform it out in public.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

Jim, your constant theme is that allowing people to sing because they want to will inevitably lead to a catastrophic decline in standards. The only way that makes sense is if people who want to sing are incapable of doing so.

Therefore you are giving your club over to anybody who walks through your door,

Yes.

even after they have proven themselves incapable of singing

You have said yourself, several times, that hardly anyone is incapable of singing.

- and you have no facility for helping them because they are too few in number (I paraphrase").

Perfectly acceptable paraphrase.

Once someone has shown shown themself unable to sing, but willing to do so, you offer them help,...... That is what any club I have been involved in has always done - that is what your club does not do.

Are those the same clubs that collapsed in the eighties because they'd been taken over by non-singers? In around forty years of going to folk clubs, I have never encountered that. We are a folk club not a school.

You have moved from your original position of saying that poor or non singers DON'T turn up at your club asking to sing [I don't think I have.] to admitting they 'occasionally' turn up. What did you do when they did?

We gave them a flloorspot. You really do seem to have trouble grasping that basic truth.

You sound far luckier than many of the clubs mentioned on this forum who do have problems

Lucky or....?

- wonder if you overawe them into silence; you apparemntly offer them no assistance to improve - or have you been hiding your light under a bushel.

Perhaps we just inspire them to give their best.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:23 AM

I am not going to ressurect any old arguments, Brian, as I think that you have never been to our folk club and I know I have never been to yours. Let us just say that as we both have many years experience in running and arranging folk events we have had slightly different experiences. It is only slight, we are talking a tiny proportion of floor singers, but it is enough for us to come to different conclusion on certain things.

To come back to using books, one of the consistantly poor performers at our club (not seen him for ages funnily enough - maybe our clubs are now the same:-) ) does all the things mentioned above. Looses the page. Does not know the song. Looses the tunes. Does not know what he is going to do next etc. He is a prime example of how to not sing from a book! He would have no qualms whatsover about singing anywhere yet, based on past discussions, I would be very reluctant to perform at your club. I do not consider myself particularly bad but I am afraid that I would make mistakes and somehow let down the high standards you have achieved.

I know it is me, not you, that is at fault here but, I could not help but feel I was under pressure to a) Perform and b) be good! Something I could not promise:-(

I can see how singing from books got into a disagreement about standards but can we not just agree that standards are measured in different ways, by different people, in different parts of the country, depending what colour underwear we have chosen that day? In other words - We will never agree on a standard standard:-) None of them are right or wrong - just different.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:00 PM

Come on fellas, I thought that this inter-folk club constant warfare and personal bickering had finished and that you had gone off to start your own thread! Or at least that is what you promised you would do earlier in this thread. So why come back and just carry it on?

David el Gnomo has said it all above when he said "In other words - We will never agree on a standard standard:-)None of them are right or wrong - just different."

In other words you are enlessly repeating yourselves, chasing your own tails in endless circles and getting nowhere fast because you will never come to any consensus.....and it's getting really boring!

Can I please ask you very politely to have some respect to the fundamental basic etiquette of Mudcat - and that is to try your best to keep to the original subject of the thread and not stray off into semi-related subjects which then turn into very personal and hostile interrogations between just a few people who seem to have some kind of history of conflict and disagreement between them.

Many thanks.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:45 PM

Sorry about that Chris but it seems that I can't stick my head above the parapet without atracting an awful lot of hostile fire. I posted a rather whimsical quotation which I thought was apposite and immediately came under an extraordinary level of attack. I didn't choose the ground on which I had to defend myself.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:15 PM

It's OK The Snail.

The best ground for battle is always the 'high' ground (definately favoured by the Romans!).

P.S I love that quote from Henry Van Dyke. So very appropriate and I believe, so very true.

Thanks again.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Muppett
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:06 AM

I'd rather go to a pub or session and see folk singing live from a book or crib sheet then have no music at all. Come on live and let live.
There are places in the world where getting together for a sing around or to see live performers is still prohibited.

So if some of you have to get high and mighty about what should or shouldn't be aloud make it something worth having a grumble about.

In the meantime Chris use yer book where and when you like.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM

Thank you Muppett. Are you on yer good behaviour tablets today?!

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM

Well said, Muppet.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM

Oh, and one more thing:

LIVE FROM THE WEST COAST IT's POST # 500!!