English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

Well, the ritualised drinking of tea is a Turkish thing which spread the world over.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Volgadon said,"Well, the ritualised drinking of tea is a Turkish thing which spread the world over."

Oh dear, does this mean WAV is thrice damned for indulging in tea drinking? :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:03 PM

Dont be ridiculous. Everybody knows that tea is from Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

sSeems to me, cakes and biscuits were also invented in Yorkshire :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:39 PM

But are scones English or Scottish?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

The scone is a British snack of Scottish origin. A small quickbread made of wheat, barley or oatmeal, usually with baking powder as a leavening agent. British scones are often lightly sweetened, but may also be savoury

and:

Fresh from Devon: Mouth Wateringly good

Poor WAV, here's something else he'll have to forgo :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM

Oh dear, I think he's concocting his next thread based on his musings for us.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM

You're really off the subject
With talk of scones and tea,
Have you all forgotten
The English Folk Degree?
Don't Kick a man when he is down
Don't act like vicious prats,
Your words are now just bullying
You sanctimonious twats.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:48 PM

That the best you can do Referee? :-D Oh speaking of sanctimonious, you do seem to be doing a good job yourself :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Opps, sorry to the rest of you, this GUEST, Referee, hasn't the courage of its (gender unknown, therefore it) convictions to take responsibility for its remarks by signing in. :D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:54 PM

And if WAV answered direct questions these threads would be a lot shorter, but instead we get walkaboutsverse number 213 or whatever as an answer.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:04 PM

The problem is, irishenglish, WAV has no answers, except as you say,walkaboutsverse number 213 or whatever, which I'm beginning to suspect is what the above piece of doggerel is. :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

Calm yourself Def Shepard,
Stop acting like a yob,
Don't dispute the referee,
Whisht and haad yor gob.
My gender's unimportant,
What's it got to do
With courage or convictions,
What, by-the-way, are you?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:31 PM

Itn't it priceless :-D

well if you know nothing about taking responsibility for your words or actions far be it from me to enlighten you, if you don't know now, you never will.
and you're right, you aren't important in anyway shape or form. You're Dismissed.

ps. what by the way am I, none of your business

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:46 PM

Awful lot of crap on here.

I don't think anyone objects to degrees in comparative folk music, Welsh folk music Irish folk music or Scottish folk music or sodding penguin folk music.

But what there ought to be is a degree (including performance) in English folk music or it is underrepresented in its own country.

A prophet is not without honour save in his own country.

Go on, tell me that that's racist without checking the source.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM

GUEST,Referee

Have you all forgotten
The English Folk Degree?

No, Referee, I have not. I have known Dr Vic Gammon, the Programme Director for over thirty years. At our club we have booked him, his predecessor Alistair Anderson, most of the tutors and many of their students and graduates not to mention some of their future students. All of them hard working and dedicated people. I consider it an invaluable enterprise. After a couple of glasses of wine, I frequently fantasise about what instruments I would specialise in and what I would choose as my dissertation subject.

That is why I find the ignorant blitherings of WalkAboutsVerse so irritating. The man has proved himself impervious to reason so ridicule is the only choice. Well, ignoring him might be better but sometimes it's hard to resist.

If that makes me vicious and sanctimonious, so be it.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

Awful lot of crap on here.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

I must be selective - I have the rest of my repertoire to get through, etc.; so, Howard: if we know the author of the song/tune it is NOT traditional, and we should give credit anytime we sing/play it.
It may help to consider folk, in England, e.g., being divided into 2 branches - traditional and composed (rather than contemporary for temporal reasons). Given that, the only ways any knew trad. songs will be created (as opposed to oldies being rediscovered) is through a lie or suchlike - perhaps someone could create a song, sing it at a folk club, and claim to have forgotten where and who they picked it up from; others like it, learn it, and it becomes a trad. song. Ewan MacColl's fine folk songs, though, will NEVER be traditional songs - due to rights, technology, etc., it will not be forgotten that he composed them; they, rather, belong to the composed branch of English folk songs. (And neither will they ever be called gobbledegook.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

On thinking about it, I've come to realise that a degree in any national music really isn't that important. I'm self taught as far as actually playing the instruments (fiddle [electric & acoustic] and mandolin [electric & acoustic]) the songs and tunes come from the usual suspects and sources The degree isn't the issue at all, it's a blinder as my grandfather used to say. Nothing is going to happen to the music (the real point) if there is or is not any degree programmes.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

I have quoted from Reg Hall, and Martin Carthy in my postings to WAV REFEREE, along with other salient points, which he chooses to ignore. He has also blown off comments from both Chris Parkinson and Eliza Carthy. Those four people combined have more intimate knowledge of English music than WAV has on his toenail, yet he sticks to his tired prose as an answer for everything. No, I haven't forgotten Referee what this thread was about. But when I start a thread, you better believe that I will follow it, agree with people, politely disagree with people, argue, counterargue, apologize, joke, laugh....whatever the case may be. WAV does not, he just repeats. What Snail said for me as well.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

That whole last post by WAV is a cut and paste if ever I saw it, irishenglish. As Ruth Archer stated, John Kirkpatrick does more for folk music just by getting out of bed, than WAV could ever hope to achieve in his lifetime (hope Ruth doesn't sue me, I used that quote in a presentation I made, earlier today :-D)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

Don't resort to ridicule
Or shout and shake your fist.
Don't get out of kilter
Or your knickers in a twist.
Watch the old blood pressure,
Don't rise to all the prattle,
For if you lose your temper
You're sure to lose the battle.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

You made a presentation about WAV, Def Shepard?!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

Ya know Guest Referee, I don't let my blood pressure rise over such nonsense, I simply type in what I feel is needed in reply to the postings, and leave it at that, simply put, you/WAV simply aren't worth very much effort at all, you whoever seem to put too much effort into appearing to be shall we say, self-righteous. *Yawn*

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

My comment to that Referee is, none of the above applies to me. Who's responsible for thread drift now though?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

GUEST,Referee

Don't resort to ridicule

So what should I do? Follow your example and resort to personal abuse?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

At least Sue agrees with me on trad., at least.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:03 PM

Ruth said "You made a presentation about WAV, Def Shepard?! " :-D

Good God No!, but in passing I did mention that there are people who will use the English Trad, for their own ends, and finished with, and I quote, " a friend of mine recently remarked that John Kirkpatrick does more for folk, just by getting out of bed, than some could ever hope to do, in their entire life times."

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

One hesitates to stick a toe back in this pool but what the hell. It's the naivety of believing 'English' is an unproblematic term without a whole parade of signifiers and connotations marching on behind. For some it may be summoned by bells, cream teas and the lowing herd but if you're jewish, black, catholic, asian or an array of other legally, morally and historically other english categories, all of whom are trying to move beyond mild slights through to mass genocide it's a bugger to be hinted at that you're not the right sort. Even the right sort to know what a traditional tune is.

I'm not daft enough to think 'folk' don't hold these views and suspicion isn't evidence but FFS, give it a bone WAV.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

WAV said, hopefully, "At least Sue agrees with me on trad., at least."

I await Sue's reply to this one.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

It is often said that America is a nation of immigrants. The original inhabitants, many believe, came across a land or ice bridge where the Bering Strait is now and spread south over the land. During the (European) age of exploration, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the English, and others came to the two American continents, exploited, explored, encroached, settle, and either murdered the previous peoples or drove them onto reservations. Immigration continued with the influx of the French, Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans, Asians. It goes on today, notably with Mexicans coming to the United States to take menial jobs that U. S. citizens, even unemployed citizens, consider too demeaning to take—much to the upset of some who worry about "American culture" (whatever the hell that is!). You get the idea.

The same thing happened in the British Isles. There were the peoples who built such monuments as Stonehenge and other stone circles, and such places of archeological interest as Skara Brae on Orkney. I have yet to hear anything definitive about who they were, where they came from, and how they got there (probably across a land or ice bridge during the last Ice Age). Then came the Celts. Then the Angles. And the Saxons. And the Norsemen, and a bit later, the Normans.

Now come the Pakistanis. The Africans. The Asians. The Middle Easterners. . . .

So, what's new?

By the way, WAV—aka David Franks. The name "Franks." Seems to imply French ancestry. Whence cometh your forebears?

Just curious.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:21 PM

WAV, several of MacColl's songs have famously been collected from the tradition, having undergone a degree of change which qualifies them to be considered as "folk music" under the 1954 definition.

All songs and tunes were composed by someone. To fall back on one of your earlier examples, "Barbara Allen" has been collected in many variants from around the British Isles and beyond. Suppose a researcher were to come across manuscript of the original version, with the name of the composer. Would it cease to be a "folk song"? Not under the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:25 PM

Yes, well the Angles and the Saxons came in and booted the original Britons into what's now Wales, Cornwall and Britanny, I should resent your sort for doing that WAV (I am of Welsh descent on both sides of my family), but you know what, that's what made England what it is, along with the other immigrants, the Norman's etc, and of recent years, West Indians, Indians, Pakistanis, the neighbourhood I grew up in is now a largely black one, but it's added life and colour to Handsworth, it's something that is celebrated by all concerned, no matter their colour or racial background, every year,and THATS England too...enough of your pseudo-nationalistic blather.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:30 PM

I should also say I'm feeling really sorry for the course in the thread title that seems to be instilling academic rigour and turning out excellent performers (and the mealy mouthed can take the last term and stick it up their fundament) and is being chewed over to the tune of 380+ posts on a web site by people few of whom have a formal qualification in the subject they're discussing.

When I begin to feel sympathy for WAV - which I do at times - I remember you started this intentionally, knowing what the fallout would be or blinding yourself to the consequences. As I said above, if you can't or won't engage in the debate beyond a 'wouldn't it be nice if...' level or cutting and pasting rhetorical non sequiters, don't start the post in the first place.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:31 PM

Richard Bridge: "But what there ought to be is a degree (including performance) in English folk music"

But there is such a degree - the Newcastle course allows students to focus on English folk music if they wish, and many choose to do so. Or do you mean it has to be named "BA in English Folk Music"?

If were going to study for a degree in folk, I would prefer to do a course which puts my chosen area of interest into context and gives me an opportunity to explore other areas I might not have previously considered - to get an education, in other words.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:41 PM

To glueman: it is hardly surprising that few of us have academic qualifications in the subject when the only course has been running for only a few years. However many of us have considerable experience in the field and are not coming from a position of complete ignorance. And most of us have been entirely supportive of the Newcastle course.

But it would be nice if WAV would engage in debate. He seems to think that what he is saying is so obvious that if he goes on repeating it long enough we will understand him. Well, after many repetitions, we still don't understand, so WAV, please put forward some coherent arguments to support your point of view. And, in the words of a famous Englishman, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken"

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:49 PM

I was thinking about related courses like the folklore one at Sheffield and others when I wrote Howard but I agree with your point.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:01 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, at 67 plays on the myspace site so far today (as of just now when I looked in myself), I respectfully submit that WAV has had the last laugh here. And that IS kinda funny, I have to admit...

Peace,
Gene.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:28 PM

No Gene, after his obfuscation on a thread, and on several threads he has originated, I don't find it funny, IMO.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:46 AM

Howard Jones - yes, that is precisely the point. There are degrees specifically in the folk music of places other than England (regardless of the difficulty in deciding exactly where and how such music orginated or evolved) but there is not one in English folk music (whether or not including comparative elements). English folk music ought to be equally represented (and thereby supported and encouraged).

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:18 AM

Thanks, Richard, for returning us to the (ostensible) topic of this thread. But I think everything that needed to be said was said on day one (30th May!)

Some of us think it can't be done and probably shouldn't be.

Ruth Allan:

Many of these students eagerly took away the photocopies I brought of manuscript fiddle tunebooks from Cumbria, so I guess they'll be playing some of them. But actually many of those tunes are versions of Irish and Scottish tunes - or are the Irish and Scottish tunes variants of English versions? Who knows? They were all mixed up in the 18th and 19th centuries, so they've no racial purity ... much as WAV might want such a thing.

What a nonsense to imagine that the English, Irish and Scottish traditions are discrete entities! It's never historically been so, so why should it be now?


Some of us think perhaps it can and should be done, but can't see the point of discussing it here.

Graham (Grab):

"Do the participants of the degree wish it was a specifically English folk degree? That's the real question. Whatever your ideology regarding folk music, you're not taking the course and they are."

Volgadon (second comment on this thread!)

"A degree in Eng Trad would be nice, but I don't think any mudcatters really have pull with the UCAS.
Do you have any practical suggestions?"

And Volgadon again:

"What I mean is, why have a thread about it? Not one person here can do more than say 'yes, it's a good idea'."


Any other questions?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:39 AM

To Don - all my known forebears were born in England; yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began; and you may like to read my poem #76 LAND RIGHTS.
To Howard: that, very unlikely, hypothetical manuscript would have on it a composed folk song - NOT a traditional folk song. With Ewan MacColl, I think you are referring to the radio ballads, where he put together others stories into lyrics - these are composed folk songs.
NEW!: It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:01 AM

Oh, blimey, he's back. And he's *still* talking about immigration - in a thread on a totally different topic, that he started himself. Funny, that.

Is it just me or are WAV threads starting to look alike?

WAV: "We need more *English* material/teaching/performers/cheese/etc and less of all that foreign rubbish!"
Mudcatter 1: "No, we don't."
Catter 2: "No, we don't."
C3: "No, we don't."
C4: "I'm with the other three."
WAV: "Oh yes we do!"
C1: "Oh no we don't."
C2: "Oh no we don't."
C3: "Oh no we don't."
C4: "Nope."
WAV: "Oh yes we do!"
C4: "No, we really don't."
WAV: "Yes we do."
C4: "No we don't."
WAV: "Yes we do."
C4: "No we don't."
WAV: "Yes we do."
C4: "No we don't."
WAV: "And what about immigration, eh? How come nobody ever questions immigration, that's what I'd like to know!"
C4: "No we... what?"

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:05 AM

Phil - I think you've muddled me and Ruth Archer up in your quote. However, I take that as a compliment.
WAV - what the f**k are you on about now?
Everyone - stop feeding him ... he's getting our of control here!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:06 AM

Wav, the definition of "folk song" is the 1954 definition.

Not all "folk song" is "trad" or "Anon" (eg "Fiddler's Green" clearly adopted into the community with alterations - likewise "Shoals of Herring" and probably "The Gay Fusilier", to exemplify 3 different composers/authors). Not all contemporary acoustic, even of folk-style, is "folk".

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:11 AM

"It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end."

WAV, who are these powers-that-be? I've taught at an English university, and I can tell you what the priorities are: recruitment. Bums on seats. As Sue has said, the direction of the degree is likely to have been dictated by the course title that would attract the greatest number of students.

"yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began;"

So all these European cultures blending was okay (never mind the historical persecution of Catholics, French, Jews etc - let's just pretend had always been a lovely big harmonious melting pot); it was only when black and Asian people started coming over that immigration became "bad". Why is that, WAV?

You haven't told me if you agree or disagree with these statements:

Although it is impractical, in a perfect world you would really like it if all immigrants currently living in England were to return to their country of origin.

You dislike immigration to England because it pollutes/dilutes English culture.

You like other cultures, so long as they stay in their own countries.

You want English people to practise English culture, and would not like people who come from other places pracising that culture - they should stick to their own traditions.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:17 AM

To Richard: "anon." appears in anthologies to describe poems of unknown author; whereas, in folk circles, "trad." is used. Yes - not all "'folk song' is 'trad'", as a there are composed folk songs.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:23 AM

Sorry - in this case, we really should use some extra syllables (apart from Ref., we are not composing metre-and-rhyme poems here, after all): "traditional" and "known-composer" are out two key branches of folk music.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:25 AM

PLEASE let's not get into another thread on definitions of folk music. PLEASE

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM

... and 400. Back to work now ...