BS: Should the US troops be thanked?

Subject: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:02 AM

I start this thread to keep politics out of the How To Support The Troops thread, which I will make a blicky for in my next post. This is for the "politics be damned" (I am quoting) people who don't want to derail that thread.

Am I the only person who thinks that since they volunteered, and I'm against war, I don't owe them any support? I would feel different if they'd been drafted, but they weren't. I feel, if anything, sorry that they were so easily duped by their own government. But I don't support them. Does that make me horrible?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:03 AM

Oops, should have been Should the US troops be THANKED, to parallel the other thread, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:33 AM

Of course the troops should be supported.

What they volunteered to do was serve in the armed forces to protect their country which is presumably your country too Mrrzy.

They did not volunteer to go to war, if asked you might find that rather a large number of them would rather not be in a combat situation, they however do not have the luxury of choice. If ordered into combat by the Government that you elected they have to put themselves in harms way, and they do so on your behalf.

If you believe in the Christian faith Mrrzy, and if you are a citizen of the United States of America you can count yourself amongst the more fortunate human beings on this planet, and you can be assured of the following. That the only person who has willingly laid down their life to protect your life, and your way of life, other than Jesus Christ is the serviceman or woman that you say you are unwilling to support. The small mindedness and ingratitude of that is unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:37 AM

So people who don't believe in the Christian faith are not so fortunate, and no police officer or fire fighter has ever willingly laid down their life for their fellow citizen?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:39 AM

Mrrzy, sometimes I wonder if you really think before starting a thread like this. I know you have some different perspectives from where and how you have lived, but jeepers.

I am a pacifist, too, and I am not Christian, but I appreciate the way of life I can live here in the US and I recognise that there needs to be some kind of force to keep it safe. I do NOT condone war and think we should be out of the middle East, BUT I do not blame the soldiers for that. IF an enemy were here in our country, should our soldiers NOT defend you and yours because you don't think you should have to support them?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 12:54 PM

Support the troops by bringing them home!The USA has a bloody history of war,invasions and slaughter .A million plus Vietnamese were killed in that awful conflict when US missiles, napalm, bombs and shells rained down on them.
After the ending of that war I did not think I would see another US army fight again on Asian soil but it seems that the war hawks in Washington [so eager to send other families' children off to fight] suffered from collective amnesia.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: GUEST,HeddWyn
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM

Yes I imagine they would need support when you consider a bunch of peasants in Vietnam saw them leave their country with their tail between their legs 34 years ago !

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:36 PM

If you don't want to support your neighbors, fine. Don't. But I see no need for you to go on about it any more than I see any need to post again to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

I disagree with the war they are fighting but I still feel they deserve our support. In America - to my way of thinking - we support other Americans even if they have views that don't agree with ours. That's why we honor free speech even if those who use it have viewpoints that are very different than our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:42 PM

I always support soldiers...in the sense that I hope they survive whatever war they are in and get safely home to their families and loved ones as soon as possible.

That doesn't mean I have to support the war effort they are engaged in. That's a separate issue. I do not support the war effort in either Aghanistan or Iraq, but I have no ill will toward the soldiers. It wasn't their decision.

Teribus, it is deliciously ironical that you said to Mrzzy "If you believe in the Christian faith..." etc... But I'll let Mrzzy explain why if he (or she) chooses to.

Your assertion that only Jesus and the American (and Allied Caolition) servicemen have laid down their lives on behalf of Mrzzy or anyone else presently living is absurd. Many other saints and religious figures of the past in both Christianity and a great many other religions have willingly laid down their lives on behalf of other people. So have soldiers of many other nations. Every soldier who falls in battle lays down his life on behalf of the other soldiers in his unit. They all deserve to be honored on that basis, because they have all made the same sacrifice.

Given wiser political and spiritual leadership, however, none of them would have been sent out to kill one another in the first place. That would require a greater degree of idealism and understanding than the narrow parochial nationalism and religious fundamentalism that you appear to subscribe to.

I was quite surprised by your statements about Jesus and Christianity, by the way. Going by your past comments on all these political threads, I had assumed you were most likely a militant atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 03:01 PM

Blaming the soldiers for the war is what resulted in so many people coming back from Vietnam being violently reviled - and what contributes to many of them still having medical problems today. Yes, thinking that they don't deserve support because of the actions of their government does make you horrible, and me disgusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 03:12 PM

I see both sides. But, I also think that if these lads and lassies did not volunteer, they WOULD be drafted. The fact that they DID volunteer means they should be supported.

Make you horrible? No... maybe misinformed?... as many of us are, at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

Teribus, when you say "What they volunteered to do was serve in the armed forces to protect their country which is presumably your country too Mrrzy" you can't then say that "They did not volunteer to go to war." Bush was on and on about using the military to fight and win wars. Volunteering for the armed forces is the exact equivalent of volunteering to go to war.
You then add that "If you believe in the Christian faith Mrrzy, and if you are a citizen of the United States of America you can count yourself amongst the more fortunate human beings on this planet" - now, leaving aside that no, I'm not a christian (now, wasn't I nice, those of you who know me?) but certainly having been born a US citizen is incredibly, incredibly lucky, and I am profoundly happy that it happened to me, and profoundly admiring of those who've come here by choice, like my Mom. She can be proud to be an American: she earned it. I am just delighted to be American, but I can't be *proud* of it.

I *am* proud of the ideal that America was meant to be, which has been so horribly perverted by the precedence given to rights over responsibilities in the America that has been but, with audacity, might soon no longer be. I am not proud of what my government was doing when the Bushes were in charge. And they made it very clear that war was what the military was for.

Katlaughing, the whole meaning of that second amendment is that you don't *need* a standing army if your citizenry is armed, although they did say in that amendment that they should also be in trained militia, which kinda gets forgotten. That way if we're *invaded* the invaders don't get anywhere as the entire nation is suddenly not only in the armed forces, but already deployed. This was especially unfair to those who signed up for the National Guard and still ended up getting sent overseas, now they were really screwed over, I agree.

So, yes, back to the troops. I am sorry for them. I think they are owed, by the people who sent them to war, the best medical care on the planet for ever and ever and ever. I admire those that survive whole of mind if not of body. But I didn't ask them to go, I didn't ask them to sign up, and I pity them to the depths of my heart.

There are much better ways to be prepared to defend your country from attack than to have a standing army.

Thanks, Little Hawk, for noticing how nice I was being about that other thing! But unfortunately, and this is a separate subject than Should I thank the troops (it *was* a mistake to use Support in the thread title), but the US armed forces have become stiflingly and overtly christian, with discrimination culminating in the fragging of that atheist (whose name I don't recall now but which reminded me of Emmet Till's name, maybe Tillman? The US football player who gave up the game to go fight the taliban, remember him?) and the persecution of members of other religions (I was not at all surprised by the Fort Hood shootings, I'd been waiting for their deliberate *crusading* to drive some poor islamic soldier around the bend), bloody what else could they do to make things worse, I wonder.
But that *is* an aside from Should I Thank The Troops. How to you reach the joeclones to get something like a thread title changed, wiggle my wand at them?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:43 PM

In the UK we have poppy fascists every year- if you don't wear the remembrance symbol, you're ungrateful, and supporting "the enemy". No use pointing out that once-a-year remembrance is useless if you forget for the other 364 days, or that the war is fraudulent.

Look up Wooton Basset- it's the nearest town to where the dead soldiers are flown in, and they have developed a (recent) tradition of honouring them. Now being hijacked by poppy fascists and fascist fascists (Nick Griffith a couple of weeks ago).

Yes, they volunteered. But they were (a) often ignorant and (b) often driven by economic necessity. There are probably some idealists there, certainly some fascists and probably a number of sadists.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: GUEST,HeddWyn
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM

Paul, I wrote to the British Legion after discovering that "poppies" were made by sex offenders in several prisons in the UK. This practice is normal I was told as most sex offenders are kept together and due to protection they don't attend the open prison workshops.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:39 PM

The USA is in the war business. I do not support this war and I did not vote for the gang who started it.
When a person signs up for the military they must know that they can end up getting shot at. They asked for it. It goes with the lunch.

Support them YES! bring them home.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be supported?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

I agree with Teribus 100%. However, as an American, you have a right to do whatever you want to. Just keep in mind that that young soldier who falls to the bomb or bullet placed or shot by a terrorist is fighting so that you may have that right.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:56 PM

Yes, and every young Muslim soldier who falls fighting to get foreign troops out of his country and preserve his own people's culture and way of life (which is exactly how they see it) is fighting so that other Muslims will have the right to live free of the presence of an invading army on their land.

That's why they support and thank their troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:04 PM

It's ironic how the US military is attempting to Christianize the army.

No, there is no reason to thank any soldier. There is a reason to sympathize with them,
however, and respect their decision whether I agree with it or not. I don't.

I think it's criminal how the recruitment of soldiers is among the poorest working-class
young men in this country. I fault Obama and his neo-Bush policies in conducting
these wars and being a war-time president. What a disappointment!

This is not change that I can believe in.

Bring 'em home!

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:04 PM

Yes, and so should every single mom who gets up at 4 o'clock in the morning and takes a bus across town to make $8 an hour to take care of her three kids be thanked... And every caregiver... And every social worker and every dedicated teacher... Cop on the beat... Fireman...

I mean, lets get real here... There are alot of heros out there quietly going about their lives... Fightin' the good fight...

Yeah, thanks to them all...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:10 PM

Title changed to what Mrrzy wanted. (You can PM Joe or any moderators you know.)

As a former 'troop', I don't really care. When I joined, I put my trust in my leaders to not get me shot at for stupid reasons. I could have declined going to Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere else, but I would have had to face the consequences. In any case, I didn't do it for the thanks, and I always knew that not everybody would be glad I was doing what I did in the military.

About the only people that really get honked off if military people aren't thanked for doing their jobs are civilians and people on the internet who just like getting honked off. Thank cops who do their jobs well. Thank firefighters and emergency medical technicians: most of these guys don't ever do anything that anyone might consider wrong in their routine duties, and they save a lot more lives than military members fighting in wars. If you don't want to thank them it's really not going to make any difference to anything, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:12 PM

Excellent point, Bobert. The world is full of unrecognized heros in every walk of life.

The reason governments make such a public fuss about soldiers all the time (as opposed to all the other heros) is that they are forever attempting to pump up support on the homefront for their military adventures.

They have to put extra effort into that for one simple reason: war is an idea that has so little to recommend it in the first place. It's sort of like selling any really dubious and undesirable product....you have to come up with some damn good advertising to get people to buy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:14 PM

Some of those Muslim soldiers are in the US Army, and are fighting alongside their Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, Atheist and non-believer compatriots. The US military is attempting to Christianize the army? No, not at all true. Every time some hyperactive Christian chaplain goes overboard, he or she gets slapped right down as soon as the higher-ups find out about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:49 PM

Now, Art, let's not let reality get into the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:13 PM

I guess another way we could look at this is that it's possible that the US troops don't feel like they need to be thanked by everyone. It's possible that they know for themselves that they are living up to their own moral code - and that's enough for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:28 PM

Brace yourselves for an inflammatory (but possibly illuminating) question....

Whom should we thank for My Lai?

Who can claim that this was done in your name?

Not the norm. Completely not the norm. But perhaps shows the small seed of reason in the original question.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:43 PM

Especially deserving of thanks, I suppose, are those scumbags who sit at a video screen in Pasadena and remotely control the drone planes that keep blowing up wedding parties 5000 miles away.

Real heroes, they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:45 PM

I see a lot of soldiers in the office now: many with three to five deployments in the past few years. The majority of these individuals seem to have chosen their best option job wise to proceed with their lives in America. The military offers many benefits and most take advantage of them. But deployment to active war zones puts extraordinary stress on their families and on their personalities, not to mention the physical wounds. It is a risky bet to try to come out winners in the crap shoot of American life.

I thank them all, primarily because I remember vividly how we looked upon and treated Vietnam Vets. But we can not afford the cost of the collateral damage of war on our citizenry. Bring them home now. Obama has abdicated his position as a peace seeker. He needs to manup and deliver what he promised. Good bless our soldiers and bring them home safely, NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:41 PM

Tia, one of the more unfortunate bits of fallout of the Vietnam war is that, after William Calley was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison, political pressure resulted in his sentence being commuted to a dishonorable discharge and, I think, six months of house arrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 12:12 AM

Very good article about W Calley in Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: mg
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 12:17 PM

You can thank me for My Lai..is that how it is spelled? I was responsible for aspects of it from a distance. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 12:41 PM

MRRRZY,
Thank you for not bringing this up in my thread. I understand and respect your opinions. Art nailed it for me - in the 60s we confused our sons with the war and destroyed many of them when they returned from Viet Nam. We also allowed the far right to usurp our flag. It is a symbol of my country NOT the ideals of the far right.
I will not allow either mistake to be repeated.
I fly a flag and want our sons and daughters home. They should never have been sent to Afghanistan or Iraq in the first place.
I have not forgotten the politicians ON BOTH SIDES who made this mess possible so they could get re-elected.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 07:33 PM

No. Dont thank the troops.
But how many 9/11s do you want?
Which city do you want it to happen to?
Would you like Al Queda to gain control of all those nice, stable, peace loving muslim countries that love the west and all it stands for?
Dont thank the troops, but dont knock them either.
They are all that stand between you and terrorist chaos.
There are blinkered idiots on both sides of the Atlantic who cant see further than their own idealistic little noses.
The troops are not to blame for the mistakes of politicians, nor are they "duped" into joining the military.
They join for the same reasons that police, fire dept, medics and educators decide to be what THEY are - to help their country and further its ideals.
I didnt join my countrys armed forces to be shot at, nor did I join to "see the world", but I wasnt too stupid to see that both were equally likely.
And I certainly didnt join to get thanks from those too stupid to realise that we need the military just as much as a police force and a fire dept.
Sure, some individual soldiers stink. So do some nurses. And priests!
Now get back under your nice safe little rock and let the soldiers do what they are trained for, without thanks, and without interference.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 07:51 PM

Al Qaeda has no chance whatsoever of taking over in any country unless it has been totally fucked over first by the great powers (meaning Russia or the USA). Afghanistan had a stable, peaceful, and healthy society under their king for quite a lengthy period in the 20th century until the Russians started mucking around in there politically and then invaded the place. Following that, it's been pure hell for the Afghans ever since. First they got the Russian invasion and the war that followed between the Mujahedin and Russia. Then they got a civil war between various elements in the Mujahedin. Out of that the Taliban eventually won out over the various other factions...but they never managed to take over one part where the Northern Alliance warlords continued to rule, so the fighting continued. Then the USA attacked them in 2001 over a terrorist act that they didn't plan and didn't execute, and that brings us to the present fiasco.

Al Qaeda is a side issue. They're a red herring. They are a small organization with few operatives, and there isn't much left of them at this point, but they continue to serve as a feeble excuse for USA wars in the Middle East. They are the convenient "enemy" that America can't do without. If they didn't exist, the State Department would have to invent them.

Al Qaeda has NEVER gained control of ANY Muslim country. They've never gone beyond being a scattered group of fanatics hiding out in various remote places.

I'm not one bit opposed to the soldiers. I admire their courage under fire, and I feel sorry about the suffering they are exposed to in war. What I oppose is the politicians who send those soldiers to war for reasons that make no sense at all (unless you sell arms and oil).

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 07:54 PM

Should the English troops be thanked?
Should the Canadian troops be thanked?
Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

Generally speaking, any soldiers who win a conflict are profusely thanked by their own people after it's over. If they lose, however...the reactions can vary, depending on the overall situation. People are quite upset when their country loses a conflict, and they will always turn their anger first on the politicians who led them during the conflict...then sometimes on the soldiers as well.

Should the Russian troops be thanked?
Should the Chinese troops be thanked?
Should the Pakistani troops be thanked?
Should the Pashtuns fighting the USA occupation be thanked?
Should the Israeli troops who attacked Gaza be thanked?
Should the Hamas fighters who defended Gaza be thanked?

I assure you that they will ALL be thanked by some...and cursed by others...strictly depending on whose direct interests were involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

Al Quaeda is all over the world, not in Afghanistan. The 30,000 surge will increase their recruitment so we have the US troops to thank for that.

Osama bin Laden may have taken credit for 911 but it was Zawahiri from Egypt who
masterminded that. There were no Afghan or Iraqi sky-jackers.

Obama will ultimately be "thanked" for a botched foreign policy following in the footsteps of L.B.J.

In the meantime, CENTCOM and the banks control the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 02:40 PM

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 03:18 PM

I do want them home! All of them, even the ones in Berlin or wherever silly place we still have troops!

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 03:29 PM

Thanks for the participation in WW2.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 03:59 PM

If you think a thing is worth dying for: A Country, a flag, your home, your religion, your husband or wife, your wealth, starving children, a muddy hill in an unknown jungle...you must be prepared to go to that extreme. If another does that in your place, you damn sure owe him or her thanks.
And for all of those who value your life above anything, who would submit to any oppression because it just isn't worth the risk, well..how could you be expected to thank anyone who would die in your place?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM

Well said, LEJ.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM

Ah, but WWII was arguably a just war, and the soldiers were drafted anyway. Different kettle of fish, or is that can of worms.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM

Just a war?

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

The abuses of government have stained the reputation of the army and those who serve in it.
It's a tough job, like any hands-on in-your-face job dealing with dangerous shit - but government have corrupted it and turned it into an weapon of aggression. How can one give 'thanks' for the abuses perpetrated by the army for corrupt government interests?

Did someone say that volunteers in the home guard were *drafted*!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:05 PM

The Germans and Italians and Japanese who served in WWII thought it was a just war too...from the complete opposite perspective. Everyone is told by his government that he is fighting to protect his country, his way of life, his family, his neighbours, and everything that is good and decent. And you know what? Most of them believe it without question. They swallow the line their government dishes out...even when they are sent away off to some foreign land and are blowing up someone else's home!

It is only after a war is irrevocably lost (or well on the way to being lost) that some of those men and women in uniform start questioning the initial assumptions under which they served. But by that time...if they are still in combat...well, then they will still fight fiercely to defend their own lives and the lives of the others in their unit, others whom they have come to know, and love, and depend upon. There is nothing fiercer than the determination of soldiers fighting on behalf of their comrades in the same unit. They will definitely die for each other under those circumstances.

This is true of ALL armies, not just our own armies.

A terrific war movie that beautifully illustrates this love of soldiers for their fellow soldiers is "Black Hawk Down"...although it focuses, really, only on the Americans in the battle, not on the Somalis. Still, it's a superb movie about men in combat, and how they will give their lives willingly for their friends.

If you want to rise above mere nationalism and tribalism, however, then you must be capable of understanding that the soldier in the opposing army is just as motivated by love for those he has served beside as the soldier in your own army is, and he TOO is dying on behalf of those he loves.

If you can't see that, and if you can't honor it, then you will never understand the depth of the entire overwhelming tragedy that is war...and you will go on being easy prey for a government that wishes to send your kids out to fight yet another war on somebody else's land.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:33 PM

Well said LH. Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:47 PM

Big diff between defending your own land, and attacking another.

As for the latter, the USA are known for their lengthy reluctance to engage in WWII (which was other people's stuff) for example.

And again: Did someone say that volunteers in the home guard were *drafted* to engage in over seas military campaigns?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

A terrific war movie that beautifully illustrates this love of soldiers for their fellow soldiers is "Black Hawk Down"...although it focuses, really, only on the Americans in the battle, not on the Somalis. Still, it's a superb movie about men in combat, and how they will give their lives willingly for their friends.

And why were these Americans engaged in battle? The battle began as an attempt to capture Moammed Farra Aidid, a Somali clan leader who was seizing UN relief supplies for sale on the black market, and attacking and massacring UN soldiers who were trying to coordinate an effort to keep the people of Mogadishu from starving to death. Sure, the American soldiers were motivated by the love of their buddies and the desire to survive, but what about their primary motivation for being there? Was this an attempt by the United States to seize Somalia as a stepping stone to controlling the Horn of Africa? Or was there not a tremendous hew and cry throughout the world that we could not stand idly by and watch a people starve to death? Good and Evil are not always on a sliding scale depending on your point of view. Feeding the starving and giving vital healthcare to the sick and dying, which was the UN mission in Somalia, was the right thing to do. Seizing these supplies to sell for profit at the cost of the lives of your fellow citizens is the wrong thing to do.
Should someone have thanked the 24 Pakistanis who were murdered and skinned by Aidid's clan for attempting to defend these vital supplies? Should anyone be grateful for the helicopter crews and ground troops who died in the attempt to capture Aidid and save their friends' lives?
I suppose many think it would have been better to ignore the starvation, oppression and disease in the name of peace and non-violence. Perhaps that is the bitter lesson we all learned in Mogadishu.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the US troops be thanked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM

I am not suggesting moral relativism, LEJ. Nor am I suggesting that all causes are equivalent on some scale of good and evil.

I am simply saying that virtually all soldiers imagine themselves to be fighting for a worthy cause (from their worms-eye point of view) and that they will fight hard and lay down their lives on behalf of their fellow soldiers no matter which cause they are fighting for.

There's something noble in that, regardless of whether you agree with their cause or not. To see the nobility in their self-sacrificing actions is NOT necessarily to endorse the political cause they are ostensibly fighting for.

I think there were many genuine humanitarian concerns behind the American operation in Somalia which were very legitimate, and that was covered too in the movie. I have no problem with that.

The Somalis who fought back on that day were defending their section of the city of Mogadishu against a sudden incursion and attack by foreign troops who kidnapped some of their people. That was also a legitimate response from their point of view, and that's why they fought so hard. I have no problem with that either.

But do I admire the warlords like Aidid who commanded them and who ran things there??? Hell no! I regard them as power-mad criminals. But their soldiers did what soldiers always do. They fought on behalf of their own ground, their commanders, and the men next to them. That is what soldiers do. They are, for the most part, as innocent and courageous as a guard dog who defends his owner or his owner's property and risks his life in the process. Therefore, I respect their courage under fire.

That is not to say I necessarily respect their political leaders or the cause they serve! I despise certain leaders and certain political causes.

Is that clear enough?