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Black Confederate Soldiers
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Subject: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 May 02 - 03:07 PM BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS A most interesting website tells something of the story of the blacks who fought for the Confederacy. Sections of the website of particular interest are: On Black Confederates Confederates of Color The Black and the Gray Songs of the 37th (midis) An extimated 65000 black troops fought for the Confederacy, about 13000 "seeing the elephant" (engaging in combat". Dr. Leonard Haynes, a black professor at Southern University, stated "when you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South." Dr. Lewis Steiner, with the Union troops at Frederick, MD, said that some 3000 Negro troops were with Stonewall Jackson, armed with rifles, muskets, sabers... "and were manifestly an integral portion of the "Southern Confederate Army." Frederick Douglas reported..."Many colored men in the Confederate Army, doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and to do all that any soldier may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels. Although not agreeing with the cast of the website, it is true that the roll of the black Confederate soldier has been ignored and suppressed for too long. Another story, also little known, is that of the tens of thousands of Irishmen, who landed at southern ports, who fought in the Confederate army. The story is here: Black Confederates |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Banjer Date: 04 May 02 - 03:26 PM Some years ago I met a black man who is a member in good standing of the Sons Of Confederate Veterans (SCV). Nelson Winbush I believe was his name. His great-great grandfather fought for the Confedracy during the War Between The States. He is a very interetsing man to talk to. This is a good sedgeway to remind all that coming up on the 30th of this month is Memorial Day and we should remmeber all those who gave their lives in defending that which they believed to be right, regardless of color, creed or political choice. Confederate Memorial Day is observed here in Florida (and some other southern states) on April 26th. Our CW reenacting unit participated in a very nice and solemn cermony at the United Daughters of the Confederacy hall. We had the privilege of firing the artillery salute! Our gun crew was mixed, two of us were in Federal Uniform and two in COnfederate Gray. It was a fitting tribute, displaying the respect of the soldiers of one side for those of the other. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Banjer Date: 04 May 02 - 03:40 PM Dicho, if I may ask, what do you perceive the 'cast of the website' to be? The parts I saw seemed to want to give credit to the African-American soldiers fighting for the South. There was also one page where there was dicussion of a multi colored marble memorial to be erected to black, brown, yellow, red and white Confederate soldiers. Did you see something else that I may have overlooked? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 May 02 - 03:56 PM Banjer, my disclaimer was mainly because I have two Union great grandfathers and I get a pro-Union bias from them. I shouldn't have put it in. My wife, from Georgia, saw nothing to object to in the site. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Banjer Date: 04 May 02 - 04:56 PM OK, I understand. You say that 'it is true that the roll of the black Confederate soldier has been ignored and suppressed for too long.' Until the movie Glory came out a lot of people weren't aware of the full role of the Black soldiers on the Union side either. I think, to carry this one step further, the role of many non-caucasian races is overlooked in many fields. Just a few examples that come to mind: the Navajo code talkers that stumped the Japanese intelligence, the Chinese laborers that built many of the railways that connected east and west, the scientific advances developed by Dr. George Washington Carver, the Tuskegee Airmen...the list goes on and on...We owe a great deal to all those that made this country what it is today! |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 May 02 - 05:21 PM And, in my home area of the United States, the Spanish, and Mexican native, pioneers of 1590-1700. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 May 02 - 05:36 PM Well, I haven't seen the film, but I tather Windtalkers is about the Navajo code talkers. Some recognition anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Little Hawk Date: 04 May 02 - 11:03 PM This is not surprising to me. A great many southerners fought for Southern sovereignty and states' rights, and simply to defend their home territory from what they perceived as Northern invasion of an independent country. It was inevitable that a certain number of black men would have served willingly, even enthusiastically, in their ranks. Robert E. Lee was opposed to slavery, but loyal to his home state of Virginia. That's why he fought for the South. There were many others like him. Slavery was not the only issue in that war, which was also a war of longstanding economic issues and political issues quite apart from slavery. Some blacks supported the South, some didn't. It would be quite interesting to see what the actual proportion was of blacks who supported the South, but I don't think we'll ever know. It's not considered politically correct now, so you don't hear about it much. Other examples of this kind of thing abound in history. Many Western Europeans and Russians (particularly from the Ukraine), for example, willingly fought for the Nazis in World War II, for a whole variety of reasons...which seemed like good reasons to them AT THE TIME. They backed the "wrong horse", but they did it for reasons which no doubt seemed entirely sensible and proper to them, given their particular local view of the situation. These things tend to be conveniently forgotten or swept under the rug afterward by the victors. It's not a result of evil, it's a result of the many complexities of human existence. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 May 02 - 12:04 AM Ukranians who fought with the Germans against the Russians are still paying a price. They have been accused, mostly falsely, of Nazi atrocities. The charges have followed them as immigrants here to Canada and elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Hrothgar Date: 05 May 02 - 03:20 AM To say nothing of the POWs from the Russian "republics" who were captured by the Western Allies and who were handed back to the Russians for extermination in 1945-46. Every time the Russians say there were 20 million Russians killed during the Second World War, I keep thinking "Yes, and at least half by other Russians." Whoops, thread's creeping a bit. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: paddymac Date: 05 May 02 - 05:05 AM Here's a good book on Irish immigrants who wore the Gray. "Clear The Confederate Way: The Irish in the Army of Northern Virginia", by Kelly J. O'Grady; 2000, Savas Publishing Co, Macon, IA; ISBN: 1-8828-1042-2. There is much about the "Recent Unpleasantness" that has been supressed and/or is greatly misunderstood. Our current notions of political correctness do nothing but further cloud the complex issues involved. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Celtic Soul Date: 05 May 02 - 09:13 AM McGrath, that's exactly what the trailer I saw last night for "Windtalkers" seemed to suggest. I had no idea there *was* such a use of a Native American language. It's fascinating what gets left behind when the history books are written. I am only glad that someone is bringing these sorts of contributions to light, albeit with the price tag of a movie ticket. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 02 - 09:48 AM Then there were the many Americans who were on the other side in the war of independence. These things are always more complicated than the way they are presented. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 May 02 - 12:17 PM From the Navajo Nation website: Codetalkers For other items, click on Table of Contents at bottom of page ("Home" doesn't work- being revised). |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 May 02 - 12:23 PM Also approved by the Navajo Nation: Code |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: DD Date: 05 May 02 - 03:53 PM Interesting........I rememeber being taught in school how they used Native Americans (Navajo) for speaking on the radio during world war II. As was a language and not a code it couldnt be "broken". In fact all of the codes WHERE broken...so this was the perfect solution..and entire language not spoken outside of the United States and spoken and understood only by a fairly small number of loyal citizens. Perfect solution to a communication problem at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 May 02 - 04:56 PM A brief explanation of the code and how it was applied is on the second website that I gave. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Big Mick Date: 05 May 02 - 07:52 PM Jed Marum's CD has several songs on it about Irish Immigrant soldiers fighting for the Confederate Army including one of my favorite songs, Fighting Tigers of Ireland. Prayer from Little Round Top is another. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: toadfrog Date: 05 May 02 - 08:16 PM People all the time fight in wars without having the slightest idea what the war is about. Read, some time, Tim O'Brien's explanation of why he fought in Vietnam. In The Things They Carry. On the radio, immediately after 9/11, there was an interview with a Native American who was rushing out to join up. When asked what he thought about the war, he said he thought it was B... S..., but that he was a warrior. Or Steven Vincent Benet's book on the Civil War, where an Appalachian settler was rushing off to join the Confederate Army. Someone asked who was the enemy, and he answered "I don't know. They call them 'Yankees,' but they aren't Indians." |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 02 - 08:21 PM Following on what Big Mick wrote there, on my shelves is a book "Poems of Father Ryan" (Abram T Ryan)published in 1888. I bought it in a jumble sale for a few pence. (Well, the priest who married us was called Father Ryan - and it turned out they had something in common, since he'd been an army chaplain for years, and so had this Father Ryan, but in the Confederate Army.
On one page there's a poem "Erin's Flag" which starts:
Unroll Erin's flag! Fling its folds to the breeze!
And on the next page there's a song for Robert Lee.
The Sword of Robert Lee
Forth from its scabbard, pure and bright,
Out of its scabbard, where, full long,
Forth from its scabbard, high in air
Out of its scabbard! Never hand
Forth from its scabbard! How we prayed
Forth from its scabbard all in vain
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Bobert Date: 05 May 02 - 08:39 PM Having spent a good portion of my life living in Richmond, Va., the Capitol of the Confederacy, I can't help but agree with Toadfrog. In the South there are a lot of Black folks who think of themselves as Negros. No Balck, no African American. Negros. These folks and their parents before them have never lived anywhere but the South. These folks relate to Southern people, the Southern way of life, the courtesies and games that Southerners play with each other. These folks are most usually rural folks. If another War for Indepenence were to be contimpalalted (which of course we know would never happen under todays realities) these folk would side with the South, even thought many are no better off than their great, great great grandfolks who were slaves. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: PeteBoom Date: 06 May 02 - 09:03 AM I can think of no person who has studied the American Civil War seriously who would argue that there were blacks in uniform for both sides. Of that, there is no question. Most of the debate I've seen has centered on to question of "support" troops and combat troops and the ratios between them. The reference to 3000 Negro soldiers with Jackson in Frederick, MD, seems a bit high to me if they were combat soldiers. Its possible, of course, as I've not paid much attention to that campaign before South Mountain and Sharpsburg/Antietam. Regarding the Irish, I remember reading of a Confederate Irish regiment returning the colours of a Federal Irish regiment after the heroic defense of them that the Federal colour-guard made. Fredricksburg if I remember right - possibly they 69th New York was the Federal regiment. Ah well - I'm off, but Mick knows that. Pete |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: GUEST,Joe in the 'pool Date: 06 May 02 - 04:18 PM I live in Liverpool and there are many, many Black marchers are in the Orange Lodge parades, they only have to check out Burnley to see what that means today, but there again, I used to do it myself as a kid! You are what you are and only time changes history... phew!! bit deep there Joe..
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: pattyClink Date: 06 May 02 - 05:34 PM DD, just to clarify, it wasn't just that they spoke the Navajo language, it was that they then also made up a word code WITHIN that language. That's why it was impenetrable. I wish the kids got history in little interesting pieces like that rather than from drab textbooks. Did you know Finns were the ones who made it possible to clear much of our eastern timberlands for farming? Did you know 1/3 of the Continental Army was of Irish descent? Lots of stuff like that about the different contributions of different groups and individuals, that doesn't make it into the mainstream of knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Lonesome EJ Date: 06 May 02 - 05:46 PM This is interesting. I thought that the use of black troops by the Confederacy was a controversial concept that was never carried forward until early 1865, primarily because it involved breaking the age-old taboo of placing firearms into the hands of slaves. It was only when the outlook was bleakest for Davis and the South that the idea was given approval. Is it possible that those referred to as "black confederate troops" who served earlier in the war were in actuality cooks, manservants, family retainers, etc? Because of a wrong date setting on a Mudcat server, this message appears out of order. It was actually posted on 6-May, not 5-May. --JoeClone, 7-May-02. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: JedMarum Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM I met a guy at a show I did in Monroe LA. He was black and wearing a ball cap with the Confederate Flag on the front. He and I were comfortably chatting about this and that - so I suggested it was a bit rare to see a black man wearing the confederate flag. He quickly responded that he wore it with pride; it was his heritage. He had ancestors, black and white who fought for the Confederacy. I didn't doubt it. He'd done his family history homework, and had the tales to back it up! |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: MARINER Date: 02 Apr 05 - 05:05 PM Jed, could the Irish Confederate regiment PeteBoom mentions in his post be the 6th Louisian that you wrote about in "Fighting Tigers of Ireland" (Streets of Fall River,is a great album by the way.) |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Greg F. Date: 02 Apr 05 - 07:10 PM Its not only possible, EJ, its certain. Been documented many times. The big fact that everyone seems to be overlooking here in the rush to eulogize the "Lost Cause" is that in the south at the time, Blacks were not persons, but property. They had no rights. They had no option of independent action. The laborers, the cooks, the "body servants", the very few that actually bore arms, etc,- any and all Blacks serving the Confederacy in any way whatsoever did so as objects, not human beings. They did so under duress, and the options they had to not so serving were punishment and/or death. The pre-eminent "States Right" southerners fought for was the right to own property in slaves. They admitted it routinely at the time and were proud of it. Its only after the fact that the southern apologists have come out of the woodwork to re-write history in their own image. Plenty of scholarly works out there if anyone is truly interested in the facts of the matter. I've posted some bibliographic info previously. The Neo-Confederate movement is no less pernicious, dishonest and deceptive than the Neo-Conservative one and uses the same tactics. Watch out for 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: GUEST,drunk factory boy Date: 02 Apr 05 - 08:48 PM same old historical story.. international working class being coherced by their capitalist masters into being enslaved class traitors |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Azizi Date: 03 Apr 05 - 09:43 AM As a result of reading this thread, the first link that was provided, and others I found through search engines, it wouldn't surprise me if the contributions of Black men in the Confederate side of the Civil War were systematically downplayed. After all, the side that wins the war writes the history. I visited the link that was provided in 2002 and would summarize the reasons given for Black men to fight on the side of the Confederacy as promises of freedom and money for their services. Here are some excepts from the fact lists provided by that site: 3. Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white confederate privates. This was not the case in the Union army where blacks did not receive equal pay. At the Confederate Buffalo Forge in Rockbridge County, Virginia, skilled black workers "earned on average three times the wages of white Confederate soldiers and more than most Confederate army officers ($350- $600 a year). 9. Recently the National Park Service, with a recent discovery, recognized that blacks were asked to help defend the city of Petersburg, Virginia and were offered their freedom if they did so. Regardless of their official classification, black Americans performed support functions that in today's army many would be classified as official military service. The successes of white Confederate troops in battle, could only have been achieved with the support these loyal black Southerners 11. In March 1865, Judah P. Benjamin, Confederate Secretary Of State, promised freedom for blacks who served from the State of Virginia. Authority for this was finally received from the State of Virginia and on April 1st 1865, $100 bounties were offered to black soldiers. Benjamin exclaimed, "Let us say to every Negro who wants to go into the ranks, go and fight, and you are free Fight for your masters and you shall have your freedom." Confederate Officers were ordered to treat them humanely and protect them from "injustice and oppression." 18. Nearly 180,000 Black Southerners, from Virginia alone, provided logistical support for the Confederate military. Many were highly skilled workers. These included a wide range of jobs: nurses, military engineers, teamsters, ordnance department workers, brakemen, firemen, harness makers, blacksmiths, wagonmakers, boatmen, mechanics, wheelwrights, etc. In the 1920'S Confederate pensions were finally allowed to some of those workers that were still living. Many thousands more served in other Confederate States. from http://www.37thtexas.org/html/BlkHist.html [the link provided in the first posts] It also occurs to me to wonder where did the Black laborers go when a battle began. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that there was some safe zone where the non-fighting Black laborers could stay while a battle was going on. It seems more likely to me that these Black laborers would be up in the middle of any battle that would occur. It also seems likely to me that in the heat of battle they would be forced to take up arms that they might retrieve from fallen soldiers to protect themselves if for no other reasons. Also I don't discount the fact that some Black slaves, freed Blacks, and free Blacks fought for the Confederacty because of loyalty to kind masters; because of loyalty to unkind masters {what I would call the house n---g status, snitch, and general craziness syndrome}; because of blood ties to masters; because of genuine friendship with their masters, and/or to defend their own homes and families... All of this to say that people do things that may or may not be in their long term best interest for a number of usually compliated reasons that may or may not be reasonable in hindsight-whether that hindsight be immediate or historical.. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 03 Apr 05 - 11:29 AM "History is written by the winners." That's certainly true for the USSR and similar victorious, absolutist regimes. Of course, in North Korea history is written by the losers. Real history (not the grade-school kind) is written by professionals with varied biases and points of view.They generally agree about what happened, but not always about why. If history were written cynically "by the winners" in the Western democracies, there'd be no mention of the Indian Wars, slavery, racism, antisemitism, colonialism, imperialism, Nazism, Marxism, you name it. In fact, if it were true, few of the "discoveries" people use to "prove" the saying would ever have come to light. I think the popularity of the "written by the winners" view comes from the unfortunate fact that most people's historical knowledge begins and ends with what they picked up in high school and from Hollywood, which is even worse. A relevant example is black troops in the Civil War. Historians and people who read about history have always known about black troops on both sides (and Indian and Irish and German, etc.). The Navaho codetalkers haven't been a secret since the project was declassified decades ago. Yet most people woulkd never have heard of them if not for "Glory" and "Windtalkers." There are plenty of people whose knowledge of the JFK assassination comes mainly from "JFK." That's history written personally by Oliver Stone, who says he's not really interested in what happened. Anybody who doubts that professional historians don't usually follow a party line should visit the history section of any university library. What, there's none near you? Your local library mainly stocks bestsellers and kids' books? Your local high school library has nothing "controversial"? Well, that *is* a real problem, but don't blame the historians. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: GUEST Date: 03 Apr 05 - 11:44 AM What motivated African-American slaves to believe that they would be given anything by fighting on the side of the suppressors, given the history of lies and deception to which they had been subjected? |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 05 - 11:54 AM It depends on what you mean by "history". When historians try to set the record straight about issues that still carry some political significance, and where the popularly accepted picture isn't quite in line with the facts, that tends to get denounced as "revisionist history", with the implication it's a kind of lie. (And they get confused with other people who are in fact lying, such as holocaust deniers, and they both get given the same label as "revisionists") Someone once commented of that that you never hear people denouncing "revisionist dentistry". It takes an awful long time sometimes for the actual facts to get through into the popularly accepted version. By which time there may actually no longer be any popularly accepted version, because virtually the only people who still care are professional historians and hobbyists. ...................... Who was it said "the winners may write the history books, but the losers write the songs?" Which is oversimplifying things too, but there's a truth in it, often enough. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Greg F. Date: 03 Apr 05 - 11:55 AM A further observation: This is tantamount to a thread trumpeting: "Jewish Soldiers of the Third Reich" maintaining that those forced into the camps & gangs and worked and starved to death "supported" and chose to serve the Nazi Wehrmacht. It is offensive, misleading, and anti-historical. Also: "Free" Blacks in the south also had no rights at law and could not by state statute reside within the borders of most southern states. So upon being manumitted for "service to the Confederacy", they would have had to immediately emigrate or by law face re-enslavement or imprisonment. Such a deal! RE: factoid #3, above, yes, true as far as it goes. Question: HOW MANY free Blacks were involved? If you check with the NPS and/or other responsible (non-Internet) sources, I think you'll find that the Texas Neo-Confederate site referenced has pretty much mangled err slanted err adjusted the facts and quoted bits and pieces quite selectively to suit their particular agenda. It seems more likely to me that these Black laborers would be up in the middle of any battle that would occur. Not so. They were ordinarily kept well away from the actual fighting, for example: (1)they were worth a great deal of money for one thing and represented a financial investment their owners were loathe to lose and the Confederate Government was unable to pay the compensation for lost or damaged property that slaveholders demanded. Remember also: the OWNERS of these Blacks were PAID for the service their property provided to The Cause. (2) Blacks allowed too close to the front lines had an unfortunate propensity to decamp en masse to the Union Lines & freedom- by the thousands upon thousands. (3) the spectre of "servile insurrection" had the Confederacy in a constant state of paranoia throught the war and Blacks were kept as far away from weapons as was possible. They might pick them up and turn them on their owners. (4) etc. RE: the April 1 1865 Hail Mary Pass by Judah Benjamin, et. al. its well to remember that Lee surrendered on 9 April this empty gesture completely nugatory. Once again for emphasis: Blacks were not "asked" to help the Confederacy at Petersburg or anywhere else: at best they were presented with Hobson's Choice; at worst they were compelled at gunpoint. Numbers were shot for refusing. Blacks who picked up arms within Confederate lines were shot. The Confederate Army would not take Black prisoners; Black Union soldiers captured were summarily executed. There's a lot more more to this situation than the simplistic version presented on Neo-Confederate, Sons of the Confederacy- type websites. For a start, give the first several chapters of Leon Litwack's Been In The Storm So Long a read- or better yet, the whole book. Then check the bibliography for more info. The real story is so much more interesting & engaging than the BS! Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Azizi Date: 03 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM Greg & others, thanks for the feedback. I know next to nothing about the subject of Blacks in the Confederacy... I still can't belief that Black slaves were always [or even usually] protected from battle. I mean, I find it hard to believe that Civil War battles weren't announced beforehand were they? So how would Confederate soldiers have time to remove their 'servants'-excuse me-their property away for safekeeping? I can agree with many of the points you made Greg in your last post. But I still think that there were probably some African Americans who were in favor of the Confederacy for any number of reasons... Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Azizi Date: 03 Apr 05 - 12:56 PM Correction I meant to say that I find it hard to believe that Confederate battles WERE announced ahead of time. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Greg F. Date: 03 Apr 05 - 01:16 PM Hi Azizi- ..I still think that there were probably some African Americans who were in favor of the Confederacy for any number of reasons... I didn't mean to dispute that- there were, certainly, tho I've never seen any reliable documentation that they numbered more than a very few. Some free Blacks- notably in the New Orleans area- also owned slaves, but they were the exception rather than the rule. 300 years of being terrorized, exploited, brutalized, denied any sort of educational opportunity, & etc., etc. can put some strange notions of what's in ones' own best interests in a person's head. There have been any number of historical treatments that touch on this aspect of the Slave experience in the Americas. I could suggest Eugene D. Genovese's Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made Pantheon 1972/1974; Herbert G. Gutman's The Black Family in Slavery and FreedonPantheon 1976, and Ira Berlin's Many Thousands Gone: The First Two Centuries of Slavery in North America" Harvard U. Press 1998 among many others. Also various psychological studies re: "Stockholm Syndrome" & etc. I suspect, also, that most that did so lived to deeply regret it thru their experiences with the post-War "Black Codes", the abandonment of Reconstruction and Black civil rights, Southern "Redemption", Jim Crow the Klan & etc. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Azizi Date: 03 Apr 05 - 01:31 PM I appreciate the list Greg. I have Genovese's book though I haven't read it for some time. I'll have to make time to read that and the others you suggested, if possible. Thanks again, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 03 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM Simply to help fill out the picture suggested above, some slaves favored the Confederacy simply because it was the only life they knew, their masters were not stereotypically cruel, and they hated the idea of an army of white "foreigners" (probably no better than the white slaveholders they knew) destroying their "homeland." They favored the devil they knew. People a hundred and fifty years ago were just as varied in their sometimes ill-advised and unexpected beliefs as they are today. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Azizi Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM Here are three excerpts from the book "Speak Out In Thunder Tones, Letters and Other Writings by Black Northerners", Dorothy Sterling,editor, {Doubleday Co, 1973}. I believe that these excerpts are more representative of Black Southern reaction to the Confederacy than Black men fighting alongside of their masters: "There were more than fout million slaves in the South, working on plantations and on Rebel fortifications. Lincoln, trying to appease the slave states tha had remained loyal to the Union, was afraid to call on slaves to leave their masters. They did no wait for his invitation. As one slave said, "When my master and somebody else quarrel, I'm on somebody else's side". [p. 311] -snip- "After a Northern fleet captured the Sea Islands of South Carolina in November 1961, the whites fled. Before long, the eight thousand slaves they had left behind were raising food and cotton for the Union. Charlotte Forten [a well to do free African American from the North]who went to teach in a newly opened school, repeated [their] reactions...'Shortly afterwards [the Whites had fled] a few of them had the temerity to return and try to induce the Negroes to go off with them. Harry [one of the Sea Island Black residents] says that his master told them that the Yankees would certainly shoot every one of them. "Very well, massa", said he. "If I go with you, I be as good as deas. So if I got to be dead, I believe I'll stay and wait for the Yankees." He said he knew all the while theree was no truth in what his master said. Nevertheless, the master..cooly order them to remove all furniture from the house to an island opposite them and then go thither themselves...The people instead of obeying their master, secreted themselves so that when he and his friends returned, not a single one of the Negroes could be found to accompany them into slavery." [pp. 311-313] from 'The Liberator' [newspaper] December 19, 1862 -snip- 'An ex-slave told what happened when Union gunboots steamed up a river in South Carolina: " The people were all a-hoeing. They was a-hoeing in the rice field when the gunboats come. Then every man drop them hoe and left the rice. The master he satnas and call, "Run to the woods and hide, Yankee come, sell you to Cuba! Run for hide! Every man he run, and my God! run all the other way! Master stand in the wood. He say, "Run to the wood!' and every man run by him, straight to the boat. [p.313, from Thomas W, Higginson, 'Up the Edisto', "Atlantic Monthly, August 1867]. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 05 - 07:18 PM If I imagine myself back in that situation, and as a black man, I think I wouldn't have trusted either lot, and I'd have been trying to do whatever might get me and anyone depending on me through without getting killed. If that meant shooting people in uniforms, I imagine I'd have done that, and the colour of the uniforms wouldn't have been too significant. As for the stuff about having to fight, because otherwise you'd get shot as traitors or deserters, that's true enough. Of course that would have applied if you were white too and didn't feel inclined to join in the killing. The same kind of situation arose earlier in the War of Independence, where there were lots of black soldiers, who've been largely airbrushed from history, I believe. More especially those on the losing side. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Azizi Date: 03 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM Correction again..This sentence should read "The master he stand and call, "Run to the woods and hide,metc.." And McGrath of Harlow, I like the phrase "airbrushed from history".. While I basically agree with your points, though had I lived in those days I think that I would have been much more in favor of the uniform that I associated with freedom from slavery-the Union army. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 05 - 08:08 PM I'd agree there Azizi - but I think for many slaves, especially field-hands, it must have been virtually impossible to have any clear picture of what was going on, with all kinds of confused rumours and lies going around. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Apr 05 - 08:15 PM Why is this above the line? |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Greg F. Date: 03 Apr 05 - 08:46 PM Its original posting predates the mandated bifurcation. Hardly a mortal sin. ------- As for the stuff about having to fight, because otherwise you'd get shot as traitors or deserters...Of course that would have applied if you were white too Not exactly, McGrath. They were summarily executed, by whim, as disobedient property. Even deserters and traitors have basic rights. Blacks - as property- had none. Check the books I've mentioned - you might be surprised how well informed many of the slaves- even field hands- were about the issues of the day. I, too, like the "airbrished from history" phrase- but keep in mind most of this airbrushing was accomplished in the first three decades of the 20th Century. Blacks served with distinction in all the North American wars from Seven Years War ("French and Indian War") up through the War of 1812 and the Mexican War in both land and naval forces and on all sides.In fact, a large contingent of Blacks left Virginia with the British Army after Yorktown to gain their freedom- pissed the Slaveocracy off no end. In the Civil War, over 186,000 Blacks men - most of them from the slave states- served in the Union Army. This was ten per cent of the total enrollment. Almost as many again- men and women- were employed as teamsters, laundresses, cooks, nurses, artisans of various types, etc. etc. Pretty obvious demonstration of where their sympathies and allegiances lay. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Apr 05 - 09:05 PM Belongs above the line as folklore. Also we have a significant amount of Civil War music posted around here, and spirituals of course. The culture they came from is relevant as well. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: JedMarum Date: 04 Apr 05 - 10:48 AM The Ballad of Thomas Higgins is based upon a true story. This black did not fight, but somehow it seems to me, a bit of thread creep is OK, right about now! sung to the melody of the Patriot Game: Life on the Bark boys Is better then hell The Charles W Morgan I remember her well So fill up my glass boys I'll tell you my tale How I came to New Bedford To hunt for the whale I'm called Thomas Higgins My journey's been long On a Georgia plantation In slavery was born My mother dark and My father was pale So I came to New Bedford To hunt for the whale Now I was but twenty When I made my mark On the log of the Morgan A fine whaling bark Her Captain a friend to The Underground Rail When I came to New Bedford To hunt for the whale Now the Boatsteerer kills boys And the runaway steals But the African slave's born To work and die in the fields For my sins I just ran boys With no bill-of-sale 'til I came to New Bedford to hunt for the whale Our first voyage took three years When we finally reached shore The nation was torn by A great Civil War But a proclamation And the Union prevailed Still I stayed in New Bedford To hunt for the whale Now the whaling life's hard boys But it's the best that I've known For a man's just a man boys And at sea life's his own For forty three years now Through the calm and gale I stayed in New Bedford To hunt for the whale Lyrics (c) Jed Marum 2004 |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: JedMarum Date: 04 Apr 05 - 11:17 AM ... as to the hows and whys of people's beliefs, from the era - in my reading, especially in the memoirs and diaries I've read - the black/white relations were mostly talked about in the first person. They were not concerned about the black questions at large, as much as how these issues affected the important relationships they had with the individual blacks they knew, and often cared for as family (in fact, they sometimes were family). This makes it much easier to understand why slaves were not always and to-a-man in favor of emancipation. I remember one tale retold in the memoirs of an Irish immigrant from the 116th Penn. He said that he had a series of discussions with a slave in VA, a woman who cared for the kitchen in the home he was guarding. After some days of getting to know one another, in a mix of company - he was dumbfounded when the women was truly horrified to discover the Yankees were here to free the slaves! She loved her master and his family - what would become of her and the life she loved? The young Irish soldier had never thought anyone would feel that way. Of course blacks who were happy with their white familes, even as slaves - would have mixed feelings. And there were whole segements of the white population who took seriously their role as caretaker, and 'family' to their slaves. So were there slaves who'd willingly pick up a rifle and actully fight against the Union? Sure - probably not in great numbers though. And I doubt very seriously that there many who felt as strongly as did the kitchen servent in the story above - at least not beyond a passing thought. The fact that were 'family' like relations, in many cases, albeit through slavery - does not change the fact that were certainly many horrendous and abusive relationships too. It must be remembered there were many kinds of relationships between blacks in whites throughout the history of slavery in America. As far as great numbers of real black soldiers, I have to remember the facts we know about Patrick Cleburn - a highly successful and in fact great military leader for the South. After he received from Jeff Davis and his government a serious hearing of his proposal to emancipate the slaves, as part of the stratgey to win secession and end the war - his proposal was not only loudly turned down, but Cleburn was never again trusted by the Confederacy. His military career was immediately and completely stunted, even though he was known as a brave and brilliant military leader, and even though the South truly needed his leadership. BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS? The Confederacy would never support such policy for blacks - of course there could be smaller incidents that did not require government approval. |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Azizi Date: 04 Apr 05 - 11:49 AM Jed, Thanks for the song. It reads well. I'm sorry I don't know the tune. We need more songs like this that teach this history while they entertain. Also, I found your comments interesting. This subject is certainly deserving of more study. For instance, I had never heard of Patrick Cleburn and the effort of others to interest the South in having Black Confederate troops. But since I'm a product of USA public schools in the 1950s and the 1960s, this is probably not surprising. Buy I dare say, very little time is given to the study of the Civil War in public [and private?} nowadays. Unfortunately, thanks to USA federal policies, teachers in my city anyway have to spend so much time teaching for the test, that there is little time for in depth discussions about history and current events. [this information comes from the number of teachers I know in Pittsburgh, PA] Again, thank you, Jed for your sharing your creativity with us. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BLACK CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS From: Greg F. Date: 04 Apr 05 - 01:18 PM It must be remembered there were many kinds of relationships between blacks in whites throughout the history of slavery in America. I take your point, Jed, and agree with it- to a point. But it should also be remembered that the fundamental relationship that formed the basis for any and all other relationships was one of Owner to Property- issues of "kind" masters- or rather owners- or feelings of "family" notwithstanding. PS: I find it hard to get my head around the concept that an article of property- like a hog or a hammer or a Hummer or an IPod- can seriously be regarded as "family". But maybe that's only me- Best, Greg |
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