Is there an English singing style?

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: Jon Boden
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:50 PM

The question was 'is' there an English singing style not 'was'. I don't think there is much standardisation on the current English trad song scene (unlike during the 60s revival). Conventional wisdom would have this as a Good Thing - each singer being an 'individual' and not beholden to a particular stylistic school. However I wonder whether the lack of a clear stylistic/techinical model for English traditional singing is part of the reason that there are so few English singers under 50. Does the cult of individualism leave music the preserve of the musical elite? Would more people be interested in learning to sing English traditional song if they could get clear guidance on how and how not to do it? You can always break rules but if there aren't any to start off with then it's a fairly bewildering prospect. Jon

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:07 PM

YAGHN and yahgn AGAIN.

Anyone else picking up sort of a cess-pool smell?

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: Rowan
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:23 PM

Many thanks, Malcolm, for your "See Grainger, 'Collecting with the Phonograph' in Journal of the Folk-Song Society, III (12) 1908, 147-242; in particular some of his detailed notation." I suspect this may be the source reference used in a workshop I attended about 35 years ago (and which I've alluded to elsewhere on Mudcat) where Grainger's use of the instrument demonstrated the existence of complicated decorations (melodic and rhythmic) that sol fa technique couldn't.

Now I need to find the source of an associated proposition, which has bothered me for a similar amount of time, that is also relevant to this discussion.

The proposition, apparently the result of someone's collecting of regional and traditional singing in England's backblocks and putting the recordings of the singers through a frequency analyser, was as follows. The singers apparently were recorded singing solo and unaccompanied but I can't recall the exact details.

Singers who had learned their songs isolated from radio broadcasts, recorded music and tempered instruments played 'classically' had overtones of fourths and sevenths above the fundamental notes they sang, while singers who had learned their songs immersed in the milieu of radio , recordings and performances on instruments played 'classically' had overtones of thirds and fifths above the fundamental notes they sang.

At the time I first heard this the proposition made sense of much that I had learned about traditional and regional styles in Britain and, I confess, most of that was from listening to recordings of the singers Malcolm had listed above. And, if the proposition has been based on proper research, it would seem to still have relevance in this discussion.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: treewind
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:56 PM

Where did this ridiculous idea come from, of some sort of folk-nazi trad police "hi-jacking" folk song and prescribing how it should be sung? There might have been few people like that about in the 1960s, but hello, it's 2007 now!

There's no harm done and a lot to be learned from listening to the old recordings of traditional singers, but nobody said you should sing exactly like they do, and if you really listen to all of them you'll soon hear why that's a laughable thing to ask. They're so different from each other, the only thing you learn is to do what you like. Of course if there's anything you like about what any of them do, why not incorporate that into your singing style?

I'm sure that's what they did when they were learning to sing in 1870 or whenever: listened to others and stole ideas.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:02 PM

Re Malcolm Douglas's post earlier about Joseph Taylor's singing style. I remember reading somewhere that he learnt some of his songs from gypsies as a youth, particularly Brigg Fair, the tune of which is part of The Star of the County Down. It may well be that he picked up elements of the travellers' singing style too.
He had a very open delivery, reminiscent of church choirs. So his singing style may have been an amalgam of many influences and may have evolved over time.
I think that is what happens with most singers - they don't suddenly appear on a stage fully formed. They evolve and change over time, absorbing influences from here , there & everywhere, rejecting many and retaining the ones they feel appropriate.

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: GUEST,vielleuse
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 07:36 PM

"Singers who had learned their songs isolated from radio broadcasts, recorded music and tempered instruments played 'classically' had overtones of fourths and sevenths above the fundamental notes they sang, while singers who had learned their songs immersed in the milieu of radio , recordings and performances on instruments played 'classically' had overtones of thirds and fifths above the fundamental notes they sang."

Rowan, can I ask what you mean by overtones?

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:16 PM

Sure, vielleuse
From the workshop that I attended, again about 35 years ago, I then understood this to mean that the singing voice did not produce a pure (as in sine wave) tone but, like most instruments, produced on that had harmonics or overtones of the fundamental note in the sound.

From other things I've read since I gather the production of overtones in one's singing voice is quite normal and, among other things, gives one's voice its characteristic timbre. What was intriguing to me at the time of the original workshop was the possibility that the context of one's learning had such influence over the content of what was learned.

While it would come as no surprise (to those who know me) that this has been a fundamental (pun intended) of my approach to teaching/learning style and associated activities I was interested to learn of a demonstration of its effect so simply.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: GUEST,vielleuse
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:52 AM

That is really interesting. I wouldn't have thought the singer would have any control over what overtones were produced - you just sing the note and anything else is an accident. How on earth do you do it?

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: treewind
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:59 AM

Sing a long note and change its sound through all the vowels and the difference between the vowels is all in the relative strength of the overtones.

Your vocal chords actually produce a rich set of overtones (harmonics) all the time, but by changing the shape of your mouth you make it resonate with different overtones which emphasises some relative to the others.

Anahata
(I hope that made sense, it's before 9am and I haven't had my first coffee yet)

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: GUEST,A Glasgow Ranger
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:17 AM

I have been hearing it for years, "the referee`s a wanker".

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: fogie
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:30 AM

I find myself copying the singer of the song's style and accent. My own voice is an amalgam of dialect because my mother was scotish and my father yorkshire, and I don't feel I have a local accent. I suppose many of us have mongrel voices, and we copy what we hear and like. However I think that's all for the good although it doesnt lend itself to a defining British accent. All our accents are evolving. Most of us will have been influenced by TV and radio pronunciations, as well as the singers we most like.
ps. I cant sing Geordie, the rest I make an attempt at initially, and it takes some time to find a way of bending it to my own inner voice.

Subject: RE: Is there an English singing style?
From: Marje
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 05:37 AM

This thread has certainly produced some interesting discussion. To get back to the question of whether there is (now) an "English style":

I think there probably is, in the same sense that there is, to my ears, a recognisably American style, Bulgarian style, French style, or Irish style. That's not to say that all American voices (or accents) are the same or that all English voices are the same. But they may have certain features in common that are not so noticeable in other nations' singing styles.

Trying to define it when you hear it all the time is not easy. The original question was comparing English with Irish styles, and that is probably to do with the amount of ornamentation used in singing. What makes English singing sound English may have elements of the language and its regional accents, the church music traditions, and the use (or not) of harmony or accompaniment. People may draw on aspects of the styles of source or revival singers they admire, including the style favoured by travellers. And nowadays, the pervasive influence of pop/R&B etc also contributes to how many people sing (eg the use of sycopation).

All these things and more may affect to the overall sound a singer makes. The singer may say, "I don't think about any of those influences, I'm just me", but their background and preferences will be revealed in their singing nevertheless. It's not something you have to put on, any more than you put on your natural accent when you speak. If you listen to a French or Irish or Italian person singing a song from their own country, there will probably be other influences at work, or at least different balance of influences.

So that's my answer - yes there probably is an English style, but don't ask me to define it!

Marje