Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 08:28 PM

I like Jim, whether he likes me liking him or not..

But as much as I'd benefit from knowing him in real life,
I suspect he could be a bit of a high maintenance friend to be around socially...???
Would I be constantly on egg shells thinking any innocent thing I say could be taken the wrong way,
and he'd be off on one...

I had enough of mates like that when I was younger and more patient...
Even worse when you're gigging in the same band..
one of 'em was a right sulker...

However, if I was active in organizing a social history project,
[something I've done in the past..]
recording the memories of very elderly folks,
some with confusion and more aggressive symptoms of dementia,
tolerance and empathy would be essential skills...

It's too easy for us to fall out with each other over petty matters blown up out of proportion
in the hothouse of mudcat,
but we need to remember we are an aging membership.
Some of us are simply getting crankier - nature is unkind like that.

So full respect to song collectors carefully persuading old singers
to trust them recording their memories..

One older lady I was sent to record,
[a retired shop keeper, very Conservative..]
was so vain, mean spirited, and vindictive,
I've avoided being involved in such history projects ever since...
Especially after I had to spend hours afterwards in sound editing, listening to her voice on repeat...

So I definitely appreciate the hard work of our folk song collectors...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 08:34 PM

Ah, butter on the brown bread - and the piles!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 10:12 PM

Howard

You appear to be challenging what we mean by "tradition" and "traditional singer". Nothing wrong with that, but please explain what you understand them to mean, or at least what is wrong with the current understanding of them.

Reasonable question. Ever encountered Wittgenstein on the meanings of words?

1 As I tried to explain, I'm interested in how different definitions have influenced the way Pardon has been written about and described and presented.

2 I am more interested in what happens, which may or may not then end up having a more or less useful label attached to it than in setting out with some definition (derived from 'faith' or Marxist base-superstructure thinking, or whatever) and seeing the world through that particular lens.

To try to make this point: how would you define a martian wattquaxl bird? How can we discuss it unless we define it. A poor parody but maybe it makes a point??

3 So I don't think I have any particular preference among the options.

4 I'd even be happy with 'something with an unknown composer' if that made enough people happy, but it won't of course.

5 It's looking as if there are no new references for Pardon, though having read Ord's work on the Revival I have thought that the covers of the CDs etc are part of the message that was put out about him. Ord is fascinating if you like a long read and don't mind the odd bit of theory.

Sorry not to be more helpful, not being evasive, just pretty open minded about the topic (when not thinking of language games) today. Might get all evangelical on a particular defn another day, but mayby not.

It is beginning to look like I'm not going to get any more material on Pardon. I cannot find that thesis that was mentioned. There are a couple of articles mentioned on Mustrad but I think these may be ones already on that site.

Thanks again to everybody who has sustained what has been an interesting and actually quite civilised discussion punctuation by the odd bit of bonkers humour. Pity we cannot manage this more often.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:06 AM

By the way I found David Hillery's thesis: it was as I suspected Newcastle University not Durham. Excited to read it: it isn't about Pardon but about vernacular song from a North Yorkshire Hill Farm. I'll be interested to see how he goes about collecting and analysing his data.

By the way, on one of the Roy Palmer tapes, Pardon explains that the farms including his had been smallholdings, and that they shared the barn. This may explain how his ancestor had the 'property' qualification to get on the electoral register pre the universal franchise, if indeed it is as I suspect the same ancestor. This fits with the fact that Billy was in a union for farm labourers and small holders. It may be that Billy came in the latter category.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:31 AM

Take it all back, it features some analysis of Pardon's singing, comparison sections. Interesting to read. Makes point I did that there are some conflicting views …

Also provides a couple of further references

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:09 AM

on the subject of Bananas, Billy Cooper the hammered dulcimer from hingham norfolk, who taught billy bennington, was a greengrocer and was known as banana cooper, because he used to sell dodgy overripe bananas.
Before anyone accuses me of being disrespectful, i had relatives who lived in the village of hingham who remembered billy practising his dulcimer on summer evenings and telling me what a delight it was to listen to him.
Jim some of us had connections with east anglia long before you came on the scene, and all we are doing iis telling it how it was. I only hope Walter purchasesd quality bananas for his lunch, and never had the nisfortune to encounter one of billys bananas

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:44 AM

The Angel fisheries in Whitby has sugar on the counter along with salt and vinegar. Of course the inevitable happened to someone I was with and they put sugar on their chips. The girl behind the counter commented that was always happening. Wouldn't you think that they would make a slight change to the arrangement?

Anyway. They don't sell mice. With or without vinegar.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:51 AM

So we have established that Walter's eating habits were nothing special and he may have eaten an odd banana

So what else might we look at? Yes I found his singing style and pronunciation easy to follow, indeed some of the record sleeves carry the words ~ quite a boon really

Ray

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:54 AM

You are for it now, Ray. Claiming that the bananas that Walter ate were odd...

:D

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

"I like Jim, whether he likes me liking him or not.."
I don't care one way or the other PFR - I've never been here to be liked or otherwise; my sole interest is to promote the music I have invested my life in, to pass on what I believe I've learned and to learn more from people I belived (and no longer do) shared my interest

I find your comment about my social like both arrogant and unfair - - you want to get to know me socially, ask someone who has been in contact with me personally
My PMs now number 582, overwhelmingly messages sharing ideas outside the nastiness of some of these discussions, or giving access to our archive, or arranging to add to it with those far more interested in folk song than those who take part in these appalling brawls
You want too know me in a relaxed mood - there's enough of that for me on the jokes thread

I came here for serious discussions on folk song - I've been pretty depressed at what I found
The ones I immediately too to have either passed on or moved on - Sandy Paton, Mike Grosvenor Myer, Malcolm Douglas..... the few others hardly ever post nowadays - wonder why !!
I've long become used to tthe fact that an intelligent discussion on the groundbreaking work done by MacColl, Seeger, Parker and The Critics... is a waste of time - too many small minds with big chips on their shoulders
Pity

The latest disgusting kicking of our friend of two decades, Walter Pardon, has finished it for me
First he was kicked off a thread because his singing was no longer relevant to today's revival - I'd long suspected that anyway
Then, this wonderfully intelligent , knowledgeable and generous old man who won over everyone he came into contact with was, was too stupid to work out for himself that the songs he referred to (and listed iin his notebooks) as 'folk' were unique, because he sang 'other songs'   
He was apparently gullible enough to be influenced and naive enough to be led away by ruthless "middle-class" researchers and collectors
The final straw was this disguising presentation of an ignorant peasant who ate anything he could lay his hands on
Walter would rather have cut his tongue our with a bread-knife rather than give offence to anybody - would that some of those better-educated, 'more enlightened' inheritors of his generosity treated him to the same respect he treated everybody he met.
If you believe continuing shit like "Ah, butter on the brown bread - and the piles!" to be 'petty', god help the recipients of your knowledge on social history'

I don't know whether I'll post again - I shall avoid some of those who I have met on these discussions like the plague - I find them insulting, every bit as inflexible as they accuse me of being, and largely lacking in knowlege and interest in the music I believe to be folk
Life's too short to bother with people who behave like this

I've spent the last week or so re-arranging my PCloud in order to make it an access facility for singers, manly because my trip to Belfast made it plain there are those out there promoting folk song, running classes, helping new young people become singers.... everything needed for a healthy future for folk songs
Maybe we can persuade some of them to send missionaries to England to promote an interest in their wonderful traditional songs and singers beyond what someone 'Chinese whispered' they used to have for breakfast when they were still around and being generous in giving us the songs they loved.
I thought I knew the Godbolds - if they are the source of that appalling rumour, they must be different ones who doted oo Walter and would never have spread such nasty and represented rumours about that wonderful generous old man - they'd have been as ashamed to have been linked to such a story as those still reveling in it here patently are not

Some here (far too few) have hooked up to our on-live PCloud Song facility -, which is now being re-organsised, extended and made more user friendly
When it is completed, I will re-post a new link - those who have my e-mail address can re-apply
I've realised it's an execise in pissing against the wind to as some people to take a serious and responsible attitude to 'The People's Art'

I'll leave you to your corpse-kicking
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

"You are for it now, Ray. Claiming that the bananas that Walter ate were odd..."
See what I mean
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

"You are for it now, Ray. Claiming that the bananas that Walter ate were odd..."
See what I mean
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:33 AM

jim for fuck sake you are being ridiculous, no one is kicking Walter.Jim you are being so silly the best thing you can do is look at the link and the people recalling walters memory fondly.[ including pauline godbold talk about tilting at windmills. you have not looked at the film and yet you continue to make ill informed comments about it, and the people who recall Walter with fondness, stop wasting everyones time, go and look at the link

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:41 AM

Come on then Jim, how is discussing a very innocent comment made by a good friend of Walter's in any way "corpse kicking" or nasty? She said what he liked for his tea and what she always used to give him. I, nor anyone on this thread as far as I can see, can see anything wrong with it. I am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you convince us that discussing what a man ate is denigrating and abusing him.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:43 AM

listen jim, we all like walters singing, we all have the greatest respect for his preserving of the repertoire, we all think it good that bellamy and others looked after Walter, now go and listen to the link and if after doing so you still continue this tom foolery. i suugest you desist

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:53 AM

Walter only ate even bananas, he would never have eaten an odd banana.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:08 AM

Egg, brown bread and Vinegar! No bigger than the average pub starter. Does that mean Walter lived in a 'World without Courses'
Sorry I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:18 AM

Sorry I'll get me coat.
Very wise Nick, this thread has become a musical 'Lord of the Flies' with the head of England's finest traditional singer on the top of the 'pig-pole', thanks too you

"listen jim, we all like walters singing,"]
Patronising shire Dick - you're enjoying kicking this dead old man as much as the rest of them - Dave too
What the he'll's the matter with you all - it's not full moon again is it !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM

39 Recordings on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRxZAeyLrf0&list=PLakEhBfePSAwqFw3TmOZ5DS2tN3uvfXt3
1The Pretty Ploughboy2A British Man'o'war3The Deserter4Two Jolly Butchers5The Handsome Cabin Boy6The Bold Fisherman7The Loss of the Ramillies8The Rambling Blade9Raggle Taggle Gypsies10Lord Lovell11Bold Princess Royal12The Rakish Young Fellow13The Banks of Sweet Dundee14 I Wish, I Wish15The Trees They Do Grow High16Uncle Walter's Tune17The Lawyer (Or Mowing the Barley)18One Cold Morning in December19Talk About Ownership of Songs20The Cunning Cobbler21The Maid of Australia22The Jolly Waggoner23Jack Hall24Peggy Bawn25Let the Wind Blow High or Low26Broomfield Hill27A Country Life28The Dandy Man29The Hungry Army30The Devil and the Farmer's Wife31The Bush of Australia32Cupid the Ploughboy33The Female Drummer 34 An Old Man's Advice 35 The Dark Eyed Sailor 36 The Poachers' Fate 37 Jack Tar Ashore38 A Ship to Old England Came39Van Dieman's Land

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

Yesterday Pseudonymous asked the question, 'Did anybody ever say to Pardon, I've been a card carrying communist'. This reminded me of something that happened to me in America in 1979. I was at the home of the Appalachian singer Dan Tate and I noticed a rifle behind Dan's front door. Dan was blind and so I asked him why he had the gun. Dan replied, 'Well Mike, I've heard of the Red Menace and if they come over my mountain I'll be ready for them.' The day before, Dan had been telling me about the famous people who, over the years, had called to see him, including 'Alan' and 'Pete', two people that he really liked. 'Alan' was Alan Lomax and 'Pete' was Pete Seeger. I didn't have the heart to tell Dan that, so far as many Americans were concerned, Lomax and Seeger were the 'Red Menace'.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:54 AM

Pseudonymous, "early twentieth century" is an entirely random cut-off point (and in fact we do have those recordings of C19th singers, albeit they were made in the early years of the C20th). It is true that Sharp and the other collectors at that time thought they were capturing the dying embers of a tradition just before it died out completely, but the sort of community song culture I described in my earlier post continued into the C20th and even up to the present day, if only in a few places.

Are you suggesting that "tradition" does not in fact exist? Are you suggesting that the idea of "tradition" is simply a left wing, even Marxist, concept?

Are you suggesting that Walter Pardon and all the singers recorded for VoTP and the other recordings I mentioned are not "traditional" and should be considered simply on their ability as singers and not as representatives of a tradition or examples of a traditional style?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:57 AM

I hve no idea if Walter ever met a communist of an type, but you can bet he'd have greeted them with the same warmth and humanity he did everybody (including Peter Bellamy, whose father was a Blackshirt)
Nice story with a strong message Mike and very apt, given the way McCarthyism has shown it's face on this forum thanks to the behaviour of an anonymous troll

THanks for that list Geoff - a much-needed blast of fresh air
I'm at present working on putting an extensive selection of Walter's songs and talk in order to make it available on PCloud
Pity some of those in this ritual degradation-dance aren't going to make use of it
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:57 AM

jim, listen to the clip and stop being silly, nobody is denigrating walter.why dont you go away with this squit you havent even listened to the clip,everybody in that clip praises walterincluding pauline godbold,for gad sake cop on you are just making yoursef lok foolish, listen to the bloody clip

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:05 AM

No explanation of how mentioning what Walter ate is denigrating or nasty then.

I'm glad really. If you could have justified it I would have had to give myself a dressing down for talking about the unusual things my Dad ate.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:07 AM

Dick's had a go at being reasonable with Jim, so has Dave, so has Punkfolkrocker and so have various other people. I'm afraid I have to agree that he is behaving like an idiot deliberately. He just seems to want to place himself and his views at the head of the queue, and we must all form a respectful line behind him. If we refuse he will demand that which he believes is his rightful place at great length, and with vitriolic turn of phrase.
I think the only answer is to ignore him if we possibly can. I know we all get that sinking feeling of 'Oh God here he is again that's the end of a pleasant thread' however if we try not to rise to it, which is quite difficult I know, (especially for me after what he has just written above) he might get the message (or not). So onward and upward.

Mike Yates story was fascinating.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wtc jim fucking well listen to this before you make any more comments

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:39 AM

" jim fucking well listen to this before you make any more comments"
Not interested Dick - Walter's eating habits were his own business and should never be discussed publicly - they have become part of a hate-fest here
Pauline spoke of Walter as a friend and an inspiration - here he has been presented as an anachronistic freak who has no place on a thread on today folk scene
I-m finished with this disgusting shit - I expected more from you with your reliance on good traditional songs

As the political Elepant has been raised (by someone with a thing about 'Pikeys')
I never heard Walter openly express a political opinion - he was, as Pat and I are, humanists with a small h.
One time when we were discussing Thatcher's brutalising of the miners, Walter said, "My Uncle Billy would have loved to have met you two" - I treasure that as the most complimentary thing ever said to Pat and I

Walter's family were very much a part of George Edwards's re-establishment of Joseph Arch's Agricultural Workers Union and weer proud card-carrying members of that admirable organisation
Even though you have no respect for Walter as a singer (or a human being, it sometimes seems) I strongly recommend you read Mike Yates's superb article on the period on the internet magazine, Musical Traditions
Be very careful though, you might learn something if you drop your guard and open your minds
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:45 AM

Did anybody else see Walter Pardon live at Dingles Folk Club? It's such a long time ago I could do with my memory refreshing.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Neutral Observer
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:05 AM

Well, this thread - Review: Walter Pardon; Research - should really have been named - Project: Trolling Jim Carroll. Well done pseud, you got 'im good 'n' proper. You knew one of his emotive spots and you set up a trap. I'd hoped Jim'd have seen through the obvious facade, but there you have it. Not sure what you're wanting to achieve, other than winding up an old man, but I hope you're happy, at least.

I find this dismantling of great singers to their bare bones most tiresome. I always wonder of the dismantlers - and what exactly is it that YOU'VE done in your life? It seems to me it's the people who have done the least, contribute the most to petty minded vulturing like this.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:37 AM

Thanks Obbo - much appreciated
I was aware I was being wound up - I really am not that think, but was happy to pull the rats out of the wainscoting - all in a good cause and second to actually gettin people to take folk song seriously, which I have come to realise is out of the question
I may be getting on in years, but I'm now achieving more than I have ever done - go examine tha Clare County website or dip into the PCloud site when it's up - we made sicx radio programmes over the last few years and a local flm coming up
My Irish Child Ballad project is probably the most ambitious but will be the most important
Who said growing old was depressing - just visiting this site is nowadays
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:42 AM

Maybe we may get a straight answer out of you then, (not so) neutral observer. Do you view any mention of what Walter ate a "hate fest" or denigrating or nasty in any way? If so, why? Do you think that anyone has tried to demonize Walter or portray him as a freak? If so, where?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM

As I was saying. Anybody else witness Walters magnificent performance at Dingles.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:56 AM

Hello Howard

Thank you for your input. No, I am not suggesting that 'tradition' is a Marxist concept. What I am pointing out, accurately, I think, is that some people have used it in a Marxist sense, including, obviously, Marxists like Ewan McColl and Bert Lloyd.

At the risk of repeating myself, what interests me is the way in which Pardon has been presented and analysed through various theoretical lenses, and Marxist has been it seems to me dominant. Mike Yates, as I said, was perfectly open about his Marxist approach, which seems to me to be good practice in terms of critical analysis: it is the done thing in some circles to make one's theoretical framework clear: it is seen as part of the intellectual challenge of drawing up and presenting the analysis.

I do not think that pointing out that a person is or was Marxist equates to carrying out a witch hunt. It is striking when one encounters works such as that of A L Lloyd as I did, from the perspective of one coming to it much later in time, a later generation, how much it reflects the left in post war Britain.

On one level, and putting this simplistically, it comes across as dated, and I don't think I am alone in this.

For example, Matthew Ord writes in his piece how 'gendered' be finds the work of that group, and in this I think he is correct. It stands out like a sort thumb to those of us who have moved on from the old post-war orthodoxies which, it seems to me, people like Lloyd and MacColl in their different ways, represent. Ord cites Althuzzer at one point: I think he is seeking to move beyond the 'vulgar' Marxism of some of Lloyd's early work (eg the first history of folk lore, the one based on AL Morton's history of England, which I do possess a copy of).

Similarly, David Hellier is quite at home with the idea that there is a 'tradition' but he does not frame it within the Marxist propaganda of McColl and Lloyd (and nobody with an open mind it seems to me can deny that this was their project, specifically a Moscow supporting type of Marxism, I have met Maoists in my time!) Hellier, it seems to me, is possibly writing in some sense 'against' the Marxism as if I remember correctly he described Billy and Pardon as small businessmen.

It seems obvious to me that as time passes, their work and those of their contemporaries within that group will inevitably be considered by more and more people who see it as something in the past, which it is, reflecting the - sorry to use the words again - ideologies of post war Britain.

What have I done with my life? What I could. Including making music, some of it, on the simple definition offered by Nick Dow, definitely folk music and already collected to boot.

My information on the union which Billy was a member of comes from a piece by Mike Yates on the Mustrad web site. Yates seems to have taken a particular interest in this, as evidenced by the piece. Were I to write up my draft, I would cite Yates as a reference on the topic. As I have said, he is one of the writers whose work on Pardon I have enjoyed.

Sandman, I forgot to acknowledge your G Lewis comment.

I forgot to thank the 'guest' who provided me with the Hillery information: it turned out to be Newcastle (which I guessed at because I knew the Vic Gammon link, I might have tried Sheffield next?). So thank you.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:01 AM

I was never lucky enough to see Walter live.

The only traditional singer I came across was Fred Jordan when he appeared at Fylde Folk Festival. I found it not my cup of tea at first but the more I heard, the more I enjoyed what he did. Traditional singing is not my favourite facet of folk music and, given the choice, I prefer a good mix of styles and sounds. But I certainly appreciate that traditional singers were the source and inspiration for many of the modern day acts and I definitely enjoy a certain amount of "source singing"

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM

Just out of interest, here is a post made some time ago by Joe Offer

OK, Jim, here's how it is: you seem to have dementia or some sort of psychological problem that does not allow you to participate in a discussion without turning it into combat. You know lots of good stuff about music, and yet you seem to turn every discussion into a discussion of yourself and how you are offended. Most of us here, don't give a rat's ass HOW offended you are and who offended you. We want to talk about music, not about Jim Carroll.
You posted two messages in this so-called ballad thread, and neither one has anything to do with music. That is unacceptable. If you can't carry on a discussion here without getting in a fight, then YOU are unacceptable.
I'm going to close this thread, and I don't want to see any more discussion about thread closure. And particularly from you, Jim, I don't want to see any discussion about anything but the actual topic of the thread.
You are a consistent troublemaker here, and have been for years. We simply cannot allow you to continue doing that, no matter what the source of your problem is. If all you want to do is fight, go somewhere else - but stop clogging Mudcat with your ridiculously petty squabbles. From now on, when you are at Mudcat you are expected to be on what your mother would call "your best behavior." I shouldn't have to treat you like a child; but most often when you're here, you act like a child. Stop it.
Thank you.
Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor

This thread is closed.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM

Sorry, I spelled Althusser incorrectly.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:20 AM

Wow! Joe Offer sounds more exasperated than the rest of us. That says it all.
Fred was a fine man and singer by the way Dave.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:26 AM

And I can see where Joe was coming from.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:36 AM

Didn't get to meet Fred, Nick but I can certainly concur that he was a fine singer. I had not come across such traditional singing before, only second hand via revivalists such as yourself and Peter Bellamy. As I said it took me a good few songs to get into it. Once I did, it was great!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,NO
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:03 AM

Quoting that Joe Offer post, giving you permission to behave like a bully.

“Quick lads, the big man says we can bully the Carroll man. Get stuck in”

We see similar things across the USA , right now.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

We see similar things across the USA , right now.
Well, firstly can I point out that post comes from the USA because Joe Offer is an American and secondly ask yourself how many years of frustration the volunteer adminstrator of this site suffered and how many hours he has spent dealing with this before this outburst came.
I met Joe Offer once when he was over here at Whitby Folk Festival and had a long conversation with him. He seemed to be a very gentle and even-tempered guy.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM

On a personal note, I (and my family who read this stuff) have been rather concerned about the use of language relating to physical violence in posts addressed to me by Jim Carroll. Twice he has alleged that I have been given a 'kicking' and recently he indulged in some fantasy relating to members of the Carthy family lynching me with a rope. At first I was shocked to think that the Carthy's were such people; but of course this is the imagination of the poster.

The fact that I do not register as a member has been mentioned, often sneeringly. I'll turn this around: in what world would it make sense to register and risk receiving PMs on a site where language like this is used.

I may be back to continue the discussion. I enjoy a discussion and a lively exchange of views. But not this sort of thing. For now I'll be busy elsewhere.

Best wishes
Sue

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:02 AM

Clue: when people stop talking about the subject of a thread in favor of going after other posters, you'll get it closed.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:08 AM

I can't even make a joke about my own haemorrhoids without him having a go!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:09 AM

And before you ask, I use germoloids. It spoils the taste if you use butter.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:11 AM

Pity if it were closed: it would be interesting to hear what people think of Hellier's respectful and interesting comparisons of several 'traditional' (read him yourself to see how he uses the term) singers, including Pardon.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:26 AM

Sorry can't find the link. Would you mind posting it again. Not your fault, my rapidly declining Laptop I suspect.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM

anyone who does not listen to a link but decides on what has or has not been said is prejudging or prejudiced.
nobody has insulted walter, at all two well respected friends and collectors made a casual remark in my presence that they had better get something to eat before they visited walter pardon because his idea of a meal was a banana has been turned [by jim] in to a denigration of walters eating habits,absolute poppy cock

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:54 AM

Pseudonymous, if you wanted to discuss ideological influences on collectors that has been fairly thoroughly discussed both on here and in print. It's usually fairly obvious when a writer is looking at something from a certain perspective, and if you don't share that perspective you can ignore, or challenge, their conclusions.

I'm not sure what difference it makes to the actual subjects. I don't think it has helped this discussion to make it about one particular singer, when it might have been better to have been more focused on writers' interpretations of traditional singing. Bringing WP into it has perhaps been a distraction.

However since he has been brought into it, he is particularly prominent on Mudcat because whenever Jim, who is a very prolific poster, wants an example of a traditional singer he usually goes to WP. At the time WP was not the only traditional singer who performed on the folk circuit. He was highly regarded by most with an interest in traditional singing, but I don't think you can attribute that entirely to ideology - he was a fine singer and a confident if modest performer, with a large repertoire. Whilst this is subjective, he certainly appeared to me to be among the best I heard, but I don't think he was "lionised" much more than the others.

All these traditional singers were valued because of the connection they provided to the tradition. For some there may have been an ideological element, but above all it was about the singing.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:07 AM

For Nick

Hope this works

http://theses.ncl.ac.uk/jspui/handle/10443/158

"Vernacular song from a North Yorkshire hill farm : culture, contexts and comparisons" is the title.

Howard: Thanks again for your contribution. I hear what you are saying, but I still think that the case study approach is an interesting one. It cuts down the variables. We should be able to discuss any singer without being concerned about any particular mudcat member, and I am sure everybody would welcomed and has welcomed any helpful contribution to the discussion.