Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:10 AM

@Hootenanny. About Walter's house.

In the OP Pseudonymous referred to it a as a 'farmhouse' and was suggesting that Walter's family was better off than the authors of some accounts sought to present. In a later posts he refers to it looking "Much more like a farmhouse than a mere farm cottage" and says "Time after time I read he live in a farm labourers's cottage".

So I checked what was shown in the film against Google Earth/Streetview. The film opens with and lingers on a larger house that is on the other side of the road. From above (the satellite view) I interpret Walter's house as having been ancilliary to a substantial farm.

My bad for using the term 'farm labourer's cottage'. None of the writers who's words are found on Mustrad call it that. I find it slightly prejudicial. Mike Yates or Rod Strandling say 'farm workers cottage'.

I live in a village for which local historian put together a house-by-house account cross-referenced to census records at a time when living memory went back to 1900. Families were packed incredibly tightly in small houses, children were boarded out with neighbours. An unmarried lady slept for years behind a curtain on a landing (the one I am sitting on at this computer). Farm workers rented houses had pig-sty's and they worked large vegetable gardens and some had a few animals.

So, contrary to the angle presented in the OP, the descriptions of Walter and his family - and what you and Jim say about his house - seem to me very credible for carpenter in a rural village.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:12 AM

"is Walter not part of the body of folk song source singers?"
I suggest you go ask whoever delibeately set up a Walyer Pardon thread to divert discussion on him elsewhere Ray
Not me
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:22 AM

I think that the OP of this thread did that in recognition of the fact that not everyone who is interested in the current state of the UK folk scene wanted to read or scroll past long heated discussions about WP but would rather actually discuss the folk scene as it is now.

For someone who says he doesn't want to start an argument Jim you seem to be over antagonistic at times.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:25 AM

Whoa was the original thread not about Walter Pardon?

What was RE: Review about ~ seems the baby may have gone out the plug 'ole

This thread is too long and seems to have lost its way

Ray

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:26 AM

Sorry no it's not too long just got muddled as to it's purpose or aim if there really is a clear one

Ray

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:39 AM

Sorry Lads
If you want to continue this kindly do so on your own thread
We can't discuss Walter and his fellow source singers there, why do you want to bring your stuff here ?
I have always believed that the major problem with today's scene is its abandoning of the music that it was set up to sing and enjoy in the first place
It has been torn up from its roots to make room for an unidentifiable something else
That has been confirmed by the fact that Walter has no place in a discussion on today's scene
I don't mind coming over to the 'scene' thread to discuss that, but I'm damned if I'm going to be part of cluttering up this one
This is not unlike the clubs where you are told "if you want folk song you need to look somewhere else - not necessarily just catering for folk song"
Sorry - finished
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:41 AM

Okay Jim,
I am definitely NOT trying to be antagonistic here. I am simply seeking clarity.

You seem to place a lot of weight on Walter's discrimination and compartmentalisation of his repertoire. That is beyond question. You also seem to indicate that this is typical of source singers in England. I presume from that you have studied what is known about other traditional singers like Harry Cox for instance. I have also studied this sort of information and done a lot of recording of source singers in the 60s and 70s. I only know of one other singer, quite celebrated at the time, who was capable of/desirous of compartmentalising his songs in this way, and he was a celebrated entertainer in his own community in West Yorkshire (Arthur Howard). For every singer who is known to have done this I can name at least 30 in England who didn't, even dear old Fred.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM

Ron
You have contributed very little to this thread and yet have decided that it got muddled and lost its way
Isn't that a little ..... what's the word I'm looking for??
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM

Jim,
For God's sake lighten up!!!!!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:45 AM

Of all the many people I have come into contact with you are maddeningly the one with the biggest chip on their shoulder by far. Without this you would undoubtedly be one of the heroes of the folk fraternity.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:01 AM

I think you may be a bit mixed up, Jim. This is the Walter Pardon thread that was started by Psuedonymous because the "current state" thread, started by Joe G, was getting bogged down on one topic. As far as I can see there is no problem discussing source singers on the "current state" thread but for an individual singer to become the focus on there was wrong, hence this one. This thread is to focus on Walter Pardon so back to business...

Questions for the experts.

Wiki has Walters mother as Edith but official sources have her as Emily. Anyone know which is right or was she born Emily and known as Edith?

The same Wiki article has Roger Dixon as Walter's nephew but I can see no record of Walter having any siblings. Did he have siblings or was Roger not his nephew?

The owners of the farm that the cottage was attached to were the Dixon family. Is Roger related to them or is that just coincidence?

More to come I'm sure :-)


DtG

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:25 AM

Think you might be mistaking me for Somerset House Dave

Steve - I said nothing out of order there - please don't start a fight - I'm having enough problems swatting flies
I said exactly what I inted=nd to do and why
Where else can peope go - to the EFDSS site to listen to indifferent singer-songwriters ?
To clubs who have admitted that they no longer know what folk song is but don't want to discuss it ?
To researchers who have now thrown early pop songs and music hall songs into the folk melting pot ?
No thanks very much

I answered you very civilly and set out what I was intending to doo without criticising anybody
Sorry - this thread is becoming very cluttered
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:35 AM

I see,
So you don't really want to discuss other traditional singers in comparison with Walter. We can't force you!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:39 AM

JIm
You obviously haven't spotted all of the material on the EFDSS site that was collected by Sharp, the Hammonds, Gardiner, Lucy Broadwood, Kidson, Carey, Butterworth, Carpenter, Baring Gould etc., along with all the Roud Indexes. Could somebody provide a blue clicky please?

Or is it just that you are dismissing all of this?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:40 AM

Er I thought we were discussing Walter anyway. Are YOU getting your threads mixed up again? The title is just above the posting box.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:46 AM

I think Dave's questions were aimed at Sue.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:54 AM

Who is Ron by the way?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:08 AM

Question about Walter's categorisation of the tunes. Jim quotes him as follows:

"Nine times out of ten, I can get an old fashioned ten keyed accordion, German tuned, you can nearly tell what is an old song. Of course, that doesn’t matter what modern songs there is, the bellows always close when that finish, like that. And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth [century], they finish this way, pulled out, look."

Box players - what is that telling us about the tunes?

I was once told by a D/G box player, when being encouraged to pick up tunes by ear in a session, that finishing with the bellows extended was a strong pointer to E minor (that included E Dorian). Was Walter suggesting something like that?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM

THis is intolerable
None of you have taken a part in these discussion =s
You come here and claim that this thread ahs lost its way or gone on to long
You flood the thread about one of England's most important singers with family incidentals with
Now I am being told I am wasting my time in trying to share our archive with singers (many of whom are now using it)
You won't allow discussion to take place on the other thread and now you seem set fair to wreck this one
Is this really what today's revival has come to ?
I started none of this but I have little doubt I will be blamed for it
Enough is enough eh fellers !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM

"I was once told by a D/G box player, when being encouraged to pick up tunes by ear in a session, that finishing with the bellows extended was a strong pointer to E minor (that included E Dorian). Was Walter suggesting something like that?"

I'm sure he was, Jag, and I went into this on an old Mudcat thread to which Jim had posted that piece of information. I also mentioned it above but didn't explain the detail.

Whether that's a reliable marker of antiquity is dubious, since plenty of old songs are in the major, but it's certainly true that Music Hall songs are (to the best of my knowledge) never in the Dorian.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM

Personally i think harry cox was a better singer than Sam larner and abetter singer than Walter, but a subjective opinion only. Iprefer Walters singing to Sam Larner, they are all good, and their charcters are reflected in their singing to some extent

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 09:03 AM

Can I just say that we made it quite clear in our article that Walter used the melodion as a guide for himself to judge the age of tunes - whether it was accurate or not is immaterial - it worked for him and in our experience, his judgement of tune ages was pretty fair
We recorded him elsewhere on this subject and he said that the only tune he can remember ever being thrown on was 'Black-Eyed Susan' (he discussed this with Mike Yates who wrote an article on his tunes, I think)
I'm no musician, so I can't say whether his method was right or wrong, and to be frank, if I could, I wouldn't try to prove him wrong - if it worked for him, it worked for him - end of story
Walter wasn't a good musician - he never claimed to be and I never saw him play his melodeon or his fiddle in public
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 09:05 AM

I'm not suggesting that you are trying to prove him wrong Jag, Jag but others have before now
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:06 AM

"Personally i think harry cox was a better singer than Sam larner and abetter singer than Walter, "
It is subjective Dick and I don't think it helpful to put our old singers into a pissing competition - five over a pint or a meal but not on a public forum where some of Walter's old friends might be looking in
Personally, I found all the old singers I listened to brought something to our folksongs that was largely lacking in revival singers - I always regarded it as a third dimension - a depth of feeling for and understanding of the subject matter
Far too many singers nowadays attempt to sell the song rather than 'tell it'
The old Irish singers used to say, 'tell me a song' - that works for me
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:36 AM

Jag,

Re Walter's home. Jim describes it thus:

Walter's home was originally a single storey labourers cottage standing on its own small piece if land - it was 'modernised' in the 1950s)

To clarify "modernised", in the photographs to which I refer It is a two story house of quite reasonable size but there is a pretty clear distinction on the end wall showing the outline of a smaller single storey building.

So it seems to be correct that Walter did live in a small cottage until the 1950s. Jim's phrase "modernised" appears to mean doubled in height.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:57 AM

"appears to mean doubled in height."
It was altered significantly inside, but I'm not sure how
I've n idea where the old bedroom was - I should imagine that it followed the Irish layout of a large all-purpose room which you entered at the centre and two small bedrooms at either end - some Irish cottages have an additional tiny loft room reached by a ladder
'Modernisation changed it to a small lobby in the centre with a flight of stairs facing the front door, a living room on the left and a kitchen/scullery on the right
Upstairs two bedrooms and a bathroom
At the far end from the road there was a coal bunker

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM

Steve Gardham wrote:-
You seem to place a lot of weight on Walter's discrimination and compartmentalisation of his repertoire. That is beyond question. You also seem to indicate that this is typical of source singers in England. I presume from that you have studied what is known about other traditional singers like Harry Cox for instance. I have also studied this sort of information and done a lot of recording of source singers in the 60s and 70s. I only know of one other singer, quite celebrated at the time, who was capable of/desirous of compartmentalising his songs in this way.

I find this very interesting and would like to extend it to the influence of their contact with the folk revival had on the source singers, their singing and their repertoire. Initially, I would like to stick to my own experience of what I remember of these singers and folk clubs in Sussex from the 1960s and 1970s onwards.
I have only realised in retrospect that the contact between the clubs and the old singers in Sussex was closer and more symbiotic than in other parts of the country - not all the clubs, of course, but certainly our club in Lewes along with the clubs in Horsham and Chichester. Other clubs saw that, for example, an evening with The Copper Family or Gordon Hall ensured a good crowd and (I suspect) booked them for that reason. Some comments on individuals: -

The Copper Family never, to my knowledge added to or augmented or changed their songs through their extensive contact with the folk clubs, though I know that the way that they sung them was discussed. I remember Bob telling me - in the presence of his son, John, that he had said when running through the songs, 'Hang on, boy, slow down a bit.... We're the Coppers; we're not The Young Tradition." Peter Bellamy was a huge fan of the Coppers but in his turn, John Copper was a huge fan of Peter. However, if you compare the speed of the early family recordings. Bob & Ron with their fathers, Jim & John with the current speed of songs in a live family performance then those early recordings you will find that generally, the old boys sang faster. Any singer will tell you that when you are in front of an enthusiastic audience that knows and loves the choruses that the pace of the song will be slowed.

George Belton lived near the Chichester club and was there every Friday and would turn up at our Saturday club pretty frequently whenever he could get a lift (usually Bob Lewis or Mary Aitchison). He and Johnny Doughty were the only ones who ever, as far as I remember, ever learned modern songs that he had heard in clubs. His way with Sydney Carter's Mixed Up Old Man became one of his party pieces, but the clubs also had another effect on his repertoire. Sometimes a younger singer would be singing a traditional song and his bright old eyes would light up and at the end of the song he would go into a huddle with his wife. A few weeks later he would turn up with a different version of that song. I am convinced that contact with folk clubs and festivals had a positive effect on his 'dormant' repertoire from his younger days.

George Spicer was the one who was most wary of folk clubs and was full of incisive questions about them - (Why do a lot of your singers sing with their eyes closed?) - but he must have got enough out of them to come back time and again. He was always the 'go to' person for an entertaining song after a darts match, a produce show or a cricket match - he was an umpire in village cricket for over 40 years. The skills that he had gained in singing in those circumstances proved to be very useful in folk clubs. His son, Ron, on the other hand loved folk clubs right from his first visit. He and Doris were our most regular supporters for over a decade. He started off with his dad's song but then he learned all sorts of others at a phenomenal rate, mainly traditional but country comedy and modern as well. I could point you to some of his modern songs that have been given a Roud Index number.
Johnny Doughty was certainly what you would call a character. He was another who could command an audience and had no trouble putting himself over in front of an audience. I had helped Jim Lloyd construct the line-up a concert at the Gardner Centre at the U. of Sussex and Johnny was amongst them. The concert was to be recorded and broadcast. Johnny kept stepping to the side of them and he sang directly to the audience. After his first song, Jim, as compere, came on and Johnny was asked to come backstage to be told - by me - to sing into the microphones. "Those bloody things are a nuisance. I can't see people's faces." I don't think his songs were broadcast. At one of the National Folk Festivals, Eddie Upton was his minder. Johnny had been asked to open a concert there for The Spinners and he was very worried about this. What would he suitable to sing in that situation? His wife made a suggestion. "Don't be daft, Meg! I learned that one off one of their records!"

Gordon Hall is a unique case amongst these singers. He actively sought out songs, versions, different tunes and I was one of the people that Gordon had long telephone conversations about where, for example, could he find more versions of Hind Horn. He wrote hilarious parodies of traditional songs, set his own tunes to broadsides like The Chichester Merchant (Roud 29941 ). His interest went far beyond the English tradition. His elder brother Albert moved to France after the 2nd World War and Gordon learned French songs from his brother. I had conversations with Gordon about which Portuguese Fado singers we liked just as I had chats with Bob Copper about early country blues.
Bob Blake was lovely as a singer and as a person. He had mixed for years with his contemporaries from the pre-folk revival singers in Sussex. To me he was one of them. Tony Wales. Nick Dow, John Howson, Mike Yates all collected songs from him but on investigation Mike found that Bob had not learned the songs from his community and therefore he was not a traditional singer. Quite a difficult decision and at one time, Mike waqs berating himself over this. My own view on this in that if a bird sings like a cuckoo, flies like a cuckoo and is a nest parasite, then it is probably a cuckoo. Bob Blake's recordings can be found in the Roud Index.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM

In a thread about Walter Pardon I see nothing wrong in trying to find out as much as possible. What is wrong with trying to get a feel for "family incidentals"? It may even enable researchers to get a better feel for the man himself. Looking at census records, for instance, lets us know who was living in the cottage while Walter grew up and tells us that during WW2, while Walter was away, an airmen from the nearby airfield lodged there.

While there is no doubt that Walter was a fine singer and generous man, important to the folk revival, he was also a man with many other facets. Things like his family relationships, his other interests and, yes, even what he ate all go to painting the full picture. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities yet again, Jim.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM

I think the fact that he was 'well-read' is important. The information that his grandfather played clarinet in the church band presumably came from Walter. How much of what Walter knew about a church band came from the family and how much did he get the same way as a lot of us - via Thomas Hardy.

His observation about the meleodeon bellows pull "And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth [century], they finish this way, pulled out, look." begs the question - how did he know those tunes went back that far. What else had he read?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:21 PM

"What is wrong with trying to get a feel for "family incidentals"?"
Why the grin of you were serious Dave - you have shown no interest in Walter or his singing, why on earth would you want to know about mother's names or cousins
I'd have thought that Walter's importance as as singer would have kept a serious folkie occupied for years ?

Walter said he 'felt' they were old to him and by and large he was right, according to musician friends anyway - I'm no authority
He seemed to approach folk songs with the attitude "I know one when I hear one" - I never knew him to be wrong about that

Can we clear up this thing about his reading
Walter read because he loved good storytelling - I would suggest he was no different than those Londoners who queued up fot the next instrumental of Nicholas Nickleby - a well-told story was a good book to him, be it Dickens, A G Henty, Frank Richards or Zane Grey
He approached literature in the same way as the Travellers we found approached the big ballads
He had a phenomenal memory for the plots and characters in his books - and elsewhere
We watched once watched Malcolm Taylor's jaw fall open once as he reeled off the top of his head the names of the players in about five-years worth of English Test matches
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM

Installment of Nicholas Nickleby - of course
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:36 PM

I've been away from this thread over 24 hours
and come back to catch up,
only to find the same old same old petty squabbling
bloating, distracting, and ruining what should be an ideal focused opportunity
to learn more about Walter Pardon...

I, and other seekers of information/education, would hope to gain better than this
from his old friends, and serious folk experts...

Newcomers to the subject of revered old source singeres
are entitled to ask reasonable questions about their lives and personalities;
and the social context they existed within.
That is what late 20th, and 21st century education trains enquiring younger folks to do.
To aquire the skills of critical analysis..
Not to soak up scraps of recieved biased 'wisdom'...

Curt grudging dismissive replies do not help anyone...

Imho.. None of the questions I've read here so far are that outrageouly prurient, or offensive
to Walter Pardon's memory...


So then, did Walter prefer Y fronts, jockey shorts, long Johns, or go commando...???

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:06 PM

Yes.. see wot i did there...?????

That is an example of a truly crass trivialising stupid question..
just so's folks can keep things in perspective...

Though to an underwear social historian it is probably a very profound question
relating to research conducted on post war working class traditions...???

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM

Why the grin of you were serious Dave

There was no grin, Jim. It is a question mark.

you have shown no interest in Walter or his singing

I have been interested in Walter's singing since I first heard it at least 30 years ago. I am also interested in him as a man. Hence the questions. What I am getting less and less interested in is the Jim Carroll show and your increasingly irrational rants.

If you cannot answer my questions, that's fine. No problem. But that is no reason to have a go at me for asking.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:46 PM

"If you cannot answer my questions, that's fine."
Please don't do this Dave - I'm gettng a litle tird of your passing the buck
Yiou may have been interested in Walter as long as you say but that has not mainifested itself here in any way shapoe or fiorm and they ' unimportant family details
How about the couple of hundred songs walter put back into the repertoire - not interested in them

"only to find the same old same old petty squabbling"
Squabbling suggest a two-way street - I have just tried to pass on information about Walter and wan't doing too bad until we were invaded by people who hadn't put in much of an appearance beforehand telling us we'd gone on too long and the subject was meandering nd then trying to drift the thread onto exactly the subject that Walter had been barred from   

"So then, did Walter prefer Y fronts, jockey shorts, long Johns, or go commando...???"
Yeah - that's about their level - I really don't need judgement from someone who mars threads with something like that
I'll try again tomorrow
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:29 PM

not interested in them

Of course I am. I am also interested in the man and his family. These things are not mutually exclusive you know.

As I said, there is no problem if you cannot answer my questions or find them trite. Other people may like to know though so, if you are not interested, please do not interfere.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:35 PM

I can see how people who knew Walter may uneasy about the personal details. I find tabloid-like interest in details living people only known from a public presence distastful.

However, Walter is gone and if he is to be held up as the end of a thread of traditional song then some domestic and socio-economic details help us bridge the ensuing gap*. He left texts that hang together well without unintelligible bits from miss-hearing. It sounds like he had the ability and opportunity to do any polishing needed to make the stories work.

For whatever reason we appreciate the "our side of the baulk" stories. Does it help us imagine we were there receiving some of the transmission?

* folklorist would probably disagree but it sounds to me as if the gap is fairly well bridged by people who knew and heard him and some of the other later source musicians. I asked earlier - how does a 21st century pub song and tunes session compare with what went on in the 'singing room' at the Mitre Tavern?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:42 PM

No tabloid type interest at all, Jag. Just a genuine interest to know more.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:55 PM

I understand that Walters house was sold after his death, does anyone know who sold it and who bought it.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 04:07 PM

vic smith said
The Copper Family never, to my knowledge added to or augmented or changed their songs through their extensive contact with the folk clubs, though I know that the way that they sung them was discussed
i disagree and would draw your attention to the old dun cow caught fire,as sung by harry champion
there was Brown, upside down
Mopping up the whisky on the floor
"Booze, booze, booze" the firemen cried
As they come a knockin' at the door
"Don't let em in till it's all mopped up"
Someone said to MacIntyre.
And we all got blue blind paralytic drunk
When the Old Dun Cow caught fire

MacIntyre was presumably nearest the door. This is roughly the same as Harry Champion version and makes more sense than the version bob copper possibly altered

And there was Brown upside down
Lappin' up the whiskey on the floor.
"Booze, booze!" The firemen cried
As they came knockin' on the door (clap clap)
Oh don't let 'em in till it's all drunk up
And somebody shouted MacIntyre! MACINTYRE!
And we all got blue-blind paralytic drunk
When the Old Dun Cow caught fire.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 04:32 PM

It is subjective Dick and I don't think it helpful to put our old singers into a pissing competition.
no pissing competition just my subjective opinion, it is hepful to newcomers to tdytional song to be made aware of other singers, joseph taylor phil tanner,harry cox, three outstanding singers.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM

Hi jag,
There is a wonderful film of a session in the Blaxhall Ship in the 50s with lots of old source singers performing. I have a vague recollection it is online somewhere, but if not the film along with several others of British traditions is available from EFDSS on a DVD. I have recorded some sessions in the 60s and remember some pub sessions from about 1962.
There was very little of what we would call 'folk song' being performed, Still I Love Him, Old Johnny Booker maybe and lots of wartime songs and sod's opera pieces from WWII, rugby songs. Of course some would say that what was being sung was all folksong because the 'folk' were singing em. A common one was My Brother Sylvest from about 1906. My uncles picked up songs just after the war in the forces and some of them were folk songs still being sung.

Not sure what you mean by a 21st century pub song and tunes session. I don't think a tunes session if such existed before WWII would have been anything like those of today. What went on in the Blaxhall Ship is not the same as a modern day singaround in that they didn't go round the room in a particular direction and being very much a local event they knew each other's repertoire, but the strict rule was 'one singer one song' and nobody would dare encroach on anyone else's repertoire until the singer had passed on.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 05:17 PM

I can recommend Ginette Dunn's 'The Fellowship of Song' as a detailed study of pub sings and repertoires in East Suffolk which includes the Blaxhall Ship.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:54 PM

Back from singing and just catching up.
Before I left Jim, you made a very interesting observation that I would like you to say a few more words about if you will.
You referred to Telling a song rather than Selling a song, which I think is an excellent turn of phrase.
The selling a song aspect of performance would refer to 'Showman Singers' (that's how I understood it). Walter Pardon was certainly Telling a song, however his contemporaries Johnny Doughty, and Sam Larner (to a lesser extent) were showman singers.
My question is, do you believe that the showman singer is a more modern style of performance, influenced by the Music Hall for example, or have they always been with us? (As far as you know-I know you're not the oracle or have a crystal ball) Secondly I have not come across an overtly song selling performance in the Irish tradition, or have I not looked hard enough. It also occurs to me that singers may have separate repertoires for pub and home. I understand that this is getting into the discipline of context.

Finally I would like to continue picking your brains about John Reilly, however I am aware this might need to be a separate thread. Let me know if you don't mind.
My question is actually about five questions really, so thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:00 PM

Dick me old mate MACINTYRE is rhyming slang for fire!!! Wot abaart all those bloomin' days we spent in the smoke? Dint cha' learn nuffin??
Gawd 'n Bennett

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:39 PM

"I can see how people who knew Walter may uneasy about the personal details."
I have no problems with the personal details Jag - I might have if Walter had not been the wonderful, friendly and intelligent man that he was, but that wasn't the case
What has appalled me here is the insulting and trivialising on one of three of England's most important singers
First, after us being told on the other thread that he was a poor singer whose position in the oral tradition was 'dubious' - we were told he had no place on a discussion about today's revival - somebody actually showed him the door by pushing him onto another thread
I was peeved at this and decided not to take part until the discussion degenerated into a snide discussion about what he had for breakfast
That went on for a little while until Nick and I struck up a discussion beween us
This morning (sorry yesterday morning) a handful of heroes turned up - someone who had participated in the breakfast bit told us that the thread had run its course and had lost direction, someone else told be I was wasting my time trying to give our recordings of Walter and others away and went ballistic when I explained why thought it was important, accusing me of having a chip on my shoulder - then back to the trivialising by replacing discussions on his Walter's singing with unimportant questions about obscure relatives by someone who had shown no interest in Walter as a singer - not a sign of Walter as an important singer on the horizon
Sorry folks - I really don't believe that is the way to honour one of England's great folk singers

I have an added problem with this
Pat and I collected for over thirty years - we're still at it spasmodically
We made friends with nearly everybody we recorded - Mikeen McCarthy and Mary Delaney became our closest friends among the Travellers - so when someone writes them off as "Thieves, poachers and scavengers", they are friends he is insulting
Walter's friendship lasted twenty years until his death - we visited him regularly (not just to record) and he stayed with us often - Pat has around forty of the letters he wrote us before we had a phone installed for him
I would have been pissed off at the treatment he has received if he had never known a song
Sorry - needed to get that off my cheat - now perhaps we can move on

Nick - welcome back - hope you had a great day singing
I'll deal with this more fully tomorrow if you're up to it but for now
One of the things we first noticed with some of the older singers is their custom of internalising a song - they didn't try to push it but they appeared to be reliving something and passing on information rather than performing
Blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney would occasionally stop singing and say - "Sorry - it's too heavy"
We thought she was having trouble with the pitch, but in fact she was becoming overwhelmed by what she was singing about - this happened with big ballads and comic songs alike
It took us four goes to get a full recording of 'Well Done Donnelly' (The Tinker) and Kilkenny Louse-House, without her bursting out laughing
West of Ireland singers would grab the hand of one of the listeners and wind it around in a circle while starting straight at their face, "telling their song" one-to-one
Mikeen McCarthy was an intimate singer - I've heard people comment that audience members felt he was singing specifically for them because of his conversational style

I don't think this was just an Irish thing
Harry Cox became so absorbed in his song that he would occasionally spit out a comment on the story - he did this with 'Betsy the Serving Maid' and Van Dieman's Land and I'm sure there were others
I think Sam was different - I never saw him live but I was quite surprised when I was told he was quite physical when he sang (confirmed on the wonderful 'The Singer and the Song' film
He may have gestured, but the timbre of his voice makes him quite an intimate singer
We've already discussed Walter's use of the microphone or "lookinng down his nose" in order to cut out the audience
Sorry - it's a bit late for this - maybe tomorrow
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:26 PM

nobody has insulted Walter.
NICK,The salient point in relation to vic smiths post was the wording somebody SAID TO MCINTYRE. and that bob copper had possibly altered it

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 12:17 AM

Jim - most of what disgruntles you this last week or more,
is down to you persistently misreading and misconstruing the intentions
of other posters..
Then amplifying it out of proportion in your own mind...

That is objective fact, clear for anyone following this thread to see..
Folks participating here [bar one possible exception...???]
do so out of respect for Walter Pardon,
and a desire to learn more about him.
Nobody is here to destroy his reputation.

Only you won't realise this,
or do, but are stubbornly refusing to recognise the positive intentions
of your fellow mudcatters..???

This has been explained to you time and time again,
yet you continue complaining about things you have mistakenly taken the wrong way...

It is so frustrating..
we need you here because of your wealth of knowledge,
and your love of promoting folk music.

But the irrational petty disruptive way you are behaving
is undermining all the positive good you bring to mudcat.

Never the less, I seriously value your input here when you manage to stay on topic..
I will continue sifting out the useful posts and info in this thread,
and bookmark it for reference.
While I listen to his tracks online...

My interest in Walter Pardon renewed as direct result of this thread existing...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 01:07 AM

Jim, we just want to know about Walter Pardon. That's all.

We don't want to fight - we just want to learn about him.

He is one of the most interesting people in folk music.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:38 AM

"We don't want to fight - we just want to learn about him."
Neither do I Joe
I've spent half this thread trying to get past Walter's culinary idiosyncracies when it should have been discussing Walter as a singer
I didn't "misread" that - that's what people chose to do
I have masses of information on Walter if I am allowed to put it up in an atmosphere where it will be treated with sensitivity and intelligence
I'd give my right arm to be allowed to do so
I have no intention of discussing our diffenences - I've said wht I believe nees to be said on that
If people want to go on with Walter I'd be more than happy to
Jim