Tech: about Microsoft, IE, Outlook

Subject: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:42 PM

I know that Microsoft bashing is a favorite sport, and many people just shrug because they have always used MS stuff and "nothing has happen to ME yet".

I also know that it takes work (that is, looking, asking and installing) to get a PC or a browser, or an email program or a word processor that are something other than Internet Explorer, Outlook Express, MS Word..etc... "it came with my machine, and I'm used to it...why change?"

Why indeed?....well, if you will take the time to peruse a couple of sites, you 'might' see "*WHY*.....

see the article on hidden files, especially do not fret if there is technical stuff that you don't get the details of...just read the lines which make points.

some of the stuff MS & company do to ensure that the world runs THEIR way

I understand...it is LOTS of trouble in this world to totally get away from Microsoft influence and their security holes, snooping, pressure...etc., but it IS possible to avoid much of the worst abuses with a few changes. Your decision....but THESE ARE REAL PROBLEMS, even if not all of them affect YOU directly...yet!

I will not get involved in long debates, as I am not the expert....but a bit of reading convinces me that some of the information in the sites I have posted is research BY experts...see what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:56 PM

Thanks, Bill. Looks like this is going to take a bit of study.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: GUEST,Mark Clark (via public proxy)
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM

Great sites, Bill. Thanks.

I confess that I don't get so excited about quality problems and market domination by Microsoft. I see them as just another company trying, like all companies, to dominate their markets. This tendance is in the nature of the system. I'd like to help improve the system but it's hard to single out a single company for doing a better job of playing by “the rules.” Note that &ldauo;rules” in this case aren't necessarily the same thing as laws.

Microsoft makes a lot of great software. I can't see any reason to avoid it out of spite. I do however avoid or suplement Microsoft products whenever their product is inadequate, seriously flawed or dangerous to use. I take the same view toward the products of any other supplier as well.

Now if there were no alternatives to Microsoft products from which to choose, that would be a bad thing.

Americans tend to pick a company and doggedly stay with their products no matter what. Some people buy only GM autos, some only Ford—even though both companies have made seriously flawed products. Some people buy only Microsoft... it's a funny world.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:24 PM

Many Thanks Bill

Even my somewhat cynical brain read your clickies with some amazement.

Cheers Geordie John

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:49 PM

yep...lots to ponder there. IF it is as they say, MS goes far beyond simple hardball marketing, and even beyond the kind of stuff which brought a court action by several states. It 'feels' to me like it would to discover that there was a tap on my telephone....just in case someone needed to check up on me in the future.

To me, re-writing Java and browser specs, even if they are 'fast', just to be sure THEY control the standard ...is like Ford or GM managing to have street lights designed so that their cars would get more green lights....but sending back info on which gas you buy and where you had driven.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:12 PM

While I can (somewhat)sympathize with the sentiment, I'm a little doubtful about the neutrality of anything found on a website called fuckmicrosoft.com. That being said, I do use Netscape out of preference, and it's free....I recommend you avoid v. 6.0, however.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:29 PM

I'm using the open source Mozilla .97 which is the basis for netscape. I have to say I've been really impressed with the performance.

Netscape 6.2 is MUCH better than 6.0 was and it deserves a good look by everybody.

The biggest hassle with non microsoft browsers is all the "enhancemants" that Microsoft has put into its Java Machine that occaisonally give you bad windows on a web site. (Never a prob on this site by the way)

Its part of the chicken and egg problem, those people panderred to by Microsoft dont recognize their own loss of options unless they explore alternatives. So people who only want to look as far as Internet Explorer never see whats being done. :(

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:12 PM

Art...I'm not sure neutrality is the issue here....truth is a bit more important than their taste in naming the site...(and the article on hidden files was written by someone else).

I do suspect that if the charges are true, then some of the young techies who spend most of their time dealing with this stuff simply don't CARE about site names...(or, they actually hope that the name will attract attention!)

The article is very precise, detailed and clear....I simply CANNOT see why MS has set things up so that when you 'think' you are deleting files, emails, and histories, you really are NOT.....unless it is for MS benefit...or someone they might work with/for...

I, personally, have used IE and Outlook Express very little, out of preference....but I shudder at what the implications are for those who have used nothing else.

(Also...though Netscape 6..etc..may be 'better', it IS owned by AOL now, and I'm not sure I care for THAT situation either *grin*...I am having VERY good luck with Opera and K-Meleon as backups for Netscape 4.7, so I'll just wait and see)...have not tried Mozilla yet, but perhaps soon.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:00 PM

As someone who went back to school, in part, to learn to get away from MS products, I feel compelled to add my two cents. To the best of my knowlege, everything in those two articles is true. One of the things that often alienates engineers at Microsoft is the fact that the marketing and legal departments often have more control over the product specs than they do. Read the company histories and the biographies, it's a common if sometimes faint thread. If they have a corporate saint, it's Vince Lombardi. The policy has always been "Push things past the limit, then back off only as much as you're forced to".

There are many excellent cheap and free products out there to replace MS with. 602 Pro, for example, is a very good FREE office suite.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: GUEST,flora
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:46 PM

I use an AppleMac and the stuff that I can get for that, much of which completely bypasses Bill Gates - and nobody can ever be bothered to write viruses for Macs either, not that I feel smug at all.....

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 09:48 PM

yep...I often wish MAC had been smarter early on....they might have gotten ahead of Bill & company and we'd ALL have better, safer, more reliable machines.....too bad so much of our lives is tied to the least dependable appliance in the house....

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 11:10 PM

thanks, i erased all the nasty files per directons on the site

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:04 AM

good..glad it helped someone...(gonna try using something that doesn't PUT them there, now?)

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:58 PM

Sort of a thread creep - if a website is being Blue Clickied would you mind telling us if it has obscene words in the addy. I'm on a govt computer and will need to fill out some info for the folks that track our usage. They don't mind us surfing on our lumch and stuff - but websites with the F word in their URL can, and do, get picked up and questioned -

Thanks very much for the info though - I'll look much more closely when I get home.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 05:42 PM

ahhh...fair enough Norton...I forget that people do their surfing from work. (I almost never post anything like that, and I seriously wish that folks could insult Microsoft with less 'colorful' language)....now, go explain this to 'spaw...*grin*)

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 06:06 PM

I'll let you "Explain" it to Spaw (he said chuckling to himself) - Thanks though - seriously - for the info
Steve

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Grab
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:48 AM

How are the alternatives to IE then? Netscape 4 was outstandingly flaky (crash city!), and Netscape 6.0 absolutely redefined "slow" - I'm on an 800MHz Duron with 128Meg, so we're not talking a real low-end machine here! Opera costs money, and Lynx doesn't do any of the fancier websites.

For email, I use Pegasus Mail, and I would recommend this to anyone. It doesn't look as slick as Outlook, but it's got _so_ much more in the way of features.

Office suites - again, how are the options? I've read reviews of KOffice and StarOffice which basically say that neither of them have the features to replace MS Office for relatively serious users.

As some others have said, it's better to approach it from a point-of-view of "how good is this program?" rather than "is it MS?". By all means avoid NT for your servers due to its flakiness, but don't avoid it bcos of the "Bill Gates = Satan" dogma.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:14 PM

The Irish Potato Famine comes to my mind.
Why?
classic case of monoculture.......... did I hear "VIRUS"?
lack of species diversity
The reason we don't learn anything from history is because those that can make the connection have a hard time explaining it to the analogously challenged. Some of us can remember when IBM was 75 or 90% of the computer industry. Until they lost the plot. Trouble is uncle Bill was the guy who hid it! Not until he finally steps down will we see MS go soft enough to belly-up. Unless there is a PC blight (like a virus but we won't be prepared for this twist!)
I predict both but I can't give a timescale, if I could I wouldn't be telling everyone - I would be laying the bets now.
the problem with monoculture is that so much of the world is geared-up to it. If you are looking for my kinda work you dun gotta be Office literate. "Can learn" equates to the "NO pile".

just a thought but MS & ME are both pretty debilitating ilnesses.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:31 PM

well, I have only an occasional crash with Netscape 4.75...and I understand that 4.78 & 4.79 are even better, but it may be in how YOU configure them....I LOVE Opera, and it can be free with a little ad stuck in the corner...for totally free, but not as configurable, try K-Meleon ...and ongoing project...it is small & fast, and will handle 'most' things.

Pegasus Mail is great, although I have been using Eudora for years...(I may yet switch)

as was noted above, 602 PRO is a free office suite that is good, and there is "Open Office" which is the open source for StarOffice....unless one is a MAJOR user of MS Word (I am not), I suspect any of those would do what you need.

I use several free wordprocessors and text editors that do almost anything I want, CryptEdit, TextShield Fusion....a couple of quick, smaller ones, too.....

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:56 AM

Thanks for this - it at least answers the amazing disappearing drive space problem, which I was going to solve by using the return to factory setting option some time soon - now it's sooner. Don't know what I'm going to do at work, though.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 03:58 PM

Netscape 6.1 is signicantly better than Netscape 6.0 - confusingly the icon still calls it 6.

Opera's ads are pretty inconspicuous, and it's got some very handy features.

Mind the way things are going we'll probably find they are both really owned by Gates, along with most of the rest of the "free market".

The thing is, if you're a mouse it doesn't really matter who owns the building. What matters is, who is the caretaker (janitor). Most of us are mice, except when w are cockroaches.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 07:10 PM

when elephants battle, mice are trampled..(cockroaches hide better, and have SO many kids , they don't care if a few are trampled)

As long as the trend towards a few big boys owning all the important parts, (including the phone lines), end user satisfaction will be low on the list of priorities. (remember Ma Bell?).... so far, Opera, K-Meleon, Mozilla, Linux, etc....are projects to keep MS and AOL from controlling it all...will they endure? Netscape didn't, so I won't hold my breath...but they all learned a bit from Netscape.

So unless MS manages to corrupt ALL the standards, until only their browsers will run on their systems, according to their protocols, some, like me, will keep using whatever alternatives there are.

There are some fairly smart folks who do NOT appreciate M$.....perhaps they will at least salvage something.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 07:35 PM

G'day Bill D,

Hey, you're saying terrible things about Bill G ... I close off and go away - but latelty, when I do that ... MS IE demands to 'phone home with a 'Failure Report" ... Then it takes about 5 minutes get out of the bloody program!

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 08:24 PM

why, Bob...you should feel honored that MS IE cares SO much about you, and wants to be sure all is well! ;>))

(just wait till MSIE 12.4, when YOU won't even have to decide where to go, or when to turn it on!...It will just surf FOR you in the middle of the night and tell you anything of importance it finds!)

(so far the worst it has done to me is to partially reset my .ini file in my Agent newsreader, forcing me to go in and edit it...(MSIE tries to be my default newsreader, but Agent has some defense up)...MSIE has just set quietly in the corner since then, as I have NOT opened it.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: toadfrog
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:51 PM

Just into the bargain, Bill, I suggest anyone who is an individual working with a word processor (not necessarily businesses working with suites) try Word Pefect in liu of Word. So far as I can see, it does a better job on just about everything, and does not try to force you to write letters, pleadings etc. the Gates way.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:53 PM

...and NO little paper clip!...*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 02:16 AM

we can't even really support netscape...only ie....we can't even really support anything but a windows machine....we can do a little on macs....but that is only to get their connection up....and a little for their email....other than that...(but then there is less that can go wrong on a mac...at least where we are concerned)

we cannot support any of the other alternative systems....not even their connections...if a customer uses one of those he is screwed....

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 11:10 AM

Well I read the guff on those files. Some of it was new to me but the html files in history have always been visible to me and I have been deleting in explorer happily every so often for the space (not that it is an issue for me but... MS ain't gonna see my pecadillo's - no siree) What I do is save html files in my own directory. I read a lot (particularly long threads) off-line so it helps. Sure I could look for the history files but there is a lot of crap I didn't ask for and what day was it? I save only the ones that appeal, but it does mean my posts may be more delayed and what I pontificate on is already old-pontifs but - hey it saves pennies and I get to wipe the history without thinking. Shame about the Mudcat cookie but I have a plan for that - just too lazy to bother.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Homeless
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 09:54 AM

Here's another interesting perspective on MS's new security initiative... clicky

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: hesperis
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 12:59 PM

Is there a good alternative to M$ word? Like, an actual GOOD one? That just comes with a word processor, not 30-300 more megs of stuff I don't need... never liked WordPerfect (bad memories of high school!), though the Hawk uses it. Word is the only M$Office thing I use - tried Access for a while, but will probably put the stuff online with mysql and php instead. That'll be more convenient for me *and* for my team.

Will check out K-Meleon. Netscape 4.x is not good for iframes and a lot of web developers use them. The thing is, the bells and whistles that M$ puts into IE make IE really attractive for the developers to develop FOR... and a lot of people use it. If there really was a good free browser that could do wonderful java and dhtml and advanced html tricks, that would be great.

I haven't found one yet. :(

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 01:22 PM

take a look here http://www.textshield.com/

there are many varied needs in the wordprocessor realm....I don't need a fancy one, but some get used to tricks that ONLY come with MS Word, so it's hard to offer them anything else...but TextShield does a lot...as does CryptEdit ..they are 'different' , but have real advantages...

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 01:31 PM

so far, Opera is the ONLY alternative browser to IE & Netscape that is attempting to do it all ...I am no expert on whether it does what YOU want, but there are LONG, detailed discussion forums about it, and someone there could no doubt answer your questions.

As to 'free'...it can be free, if you can tolerate a pretty small ad in one corner....otherwise, it is not expensive to eliminate that ad..(and of course, some even manage to get around that expense)

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 01:38 PM

There is a SUN Star Office for Linux. I have the PC dielect but never loaded it, you need a release code from a magazine that seems to have folded.
I am stuck with Word & Excel for the VBA capability.
Sold my soul to MS afraid. But I use Netscape a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: hesperis
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 04:24 PM

StarOffice is a complete office environment, with an integrated desktop on top of the normal windows desktop. I think it also browses html documents. This means, to read one quick document from a friend, you have to wait ten minutes for the whole shebang to load, and then wait another five for it to convert the thing to it's own format. No thanks.

Thanks for the links Bill. I'm just looking for a good Word clone aside from WordPerfect, but pretty much in that class. TextShield doesn't look too bad. *g*

K-meleon looks pretty good from the faq and the forums. There are workarounds for the worst problems, and if you manage your bookmarks with an outside program, that completely removes the worst problem for me. K-meleon only takes 512??? I have over 2180 bookmarks. It was 2184 earlier today, and has probably gone up to 2190 by now. *bg*

Anyway, if it isn't good now, it's one to watch for in future releases.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM

indeed....the bookmark limit in K_Meleon is the bugaboo...I simply use it for zipping around, or for loading when I am wary that Netscape is bogged down...

(my bookmark file is 1.2 million bytes...6 years old...yes, I know I should copy it and do a serious scouring of it...but, but...they're old FRIENDS...maybe they'll work again sometime!)

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: hesperis
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 07:37 PM

Exactly! Mine are only two years old. I zip up the whole directory once a year, too, to make sure they get saved properly!

Apparently you can use GUL as a bookmark manager, and then just put KM as the default browser so that if you click on a link in GUL it'll load KM. I will definitely try that.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 08:08 PM

sure...there are many 'bookmark managers'....and Netscape's is just an HTML file...you can save bookmarks in ANY program that will allow you to click....(I have saved copies several times)

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 12:13 AM

Yeah, bookmark managers are sooo cool! I kept on seeing people's bookmarks on the net, and wondered how they'd compiled them all! But with GUL, I can import the IE crapola, and export it as a netscape html file and publish it! LOL, I sorted through over 2000 bookmarks and grabbed 180-ish of them as the best of those. One's broken though. :(

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 10:25 AM

yup...you find places like this where someone posts their collection...evidently there is a BM manager called "Compass", cause I got several batches like this....always something neat to look at!

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 09:02 PM

Yep.

And what's even cooler, is a php bookmark manager with a mysql backend!

LOL, I'm turning into a geek... I've completely fallen in love with php/mysql.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:43 AM

I don't have any serious problems with using Internet Explorer and Outlook Express, although you do need to stay in touch with Mickey$oft with respect to upgrades.

Unfortunately, my systems have just been TRASHED (excuse my shouting) by our innocent purchase of TurboTax, so that the S.O. could get some 1099s printed to send out.

New versions of TurboTax (Quicken) automatically install Internet Explorer 5.5. They do not ask if you want it, and do not tell you they are doing it until they reach a point in the installation process where you cannot interrupt or abort the installation.

If you use another Internet program, you can "uninstall" their IE5.5 when your done with your taxes. (they say).

If you use another version of IE, as I did, you cannot feasibly uninstall their "add-in" without completely corrupting your system.

It took me two days, and 4 calls to my ISP providers, to get back on line - and the version of IE5.5 installed is not even current with respect to Mickey$oft security releases. Security fixes I had previously applied to my other version of IE were trashed.

Needless to say, I DO NOT RECOMMEND TURBO TAX, and I'll be trying to teach my S.O. to use something other than Quicken for her books as soon as possible.

Anyone for a class action??

John

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:51 PM

John, when we needed some business.tax software last year, I went searching for options, and found several that did pretty well in various ways....I hope you find one that suits....(NOTHING upsets me more than some software that decides FOR you what to do, what to install, and who too inform of what you are doing!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Mark Clark
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:24 PM

I've used TaxAct for a few years now and have had no problems whatever. They even throw in a free electronic filing with the product. The program is very instructive and helpful and can guide anyone through the process easily. Of course it also keeps history so you don't have enter the same constant information each year and you can use previous years' information to help calculate the current year.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:18 PM

Bill & Mark,

I'm not really too concerned about finding new software, although since Intuit claims over 80 percent of the tax prep business, you have to worry about how long the others are going to be around. They even drove Microsoft (Money) out.

My put on it is that installing software extraneous to the purpose for which I purchased their program, without informing me that they would do so and without asking my permission to do so, constitutes a violation of the specifically cited prohibition in 18 U.S.C. § 1030. Fairly recent citation, by the Honorable Robert J. Timlin, Judge of the United States District Court, Central District of California is that
.."A person violates Section 1030(a)(2)(C) where that person "intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access."

Other sections of the statutes deal with unauthorized installation of software not consistent with the owners purposes.

In other words, my feeling is that what Intuit did to me, and will do to anyone who uses their software for this years income tax returns, constitutes a felony.

Unfortunately, I'm not rich; but I intend to be vocal about it.

Step 1, 5 emails to my local newspaper.

Step 2, in preparation - complaint to my state attorney general, Better Business Bureau, & Local police fraud/consumer protection unit.

More to come. But of course I know I'm "fighting feathers."

Incidentally - when I connected to Intuits "web chat" help site, they said "It's Microsoft's problem," and disconnected me without permitting a reply or other question.

John

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: GUEST,wildlone,sans cookie[for now ]
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:22 PM

Bill D,interesting stuff, It could explain some of the problems I keep getting using IE 5.5 with AOL.
I am now using Netscape 6.6, hence no cookie
dave

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:48 PM

For what it's worth, when I went to the "fuckmicrosoft" site that led off this discussion, and read all the scary stuff, I followed the instructions to find my hidden history files--and found the contents just by opening them...they were not "empty" as the site said they would be. Which leads me to question the veracity of everything else on that site. Not that I'm a big fan of microsoft, but saying that the giant is bad (even if it's true) doesn't make everything else you say reliable. (If someone can point out to me where I'm wrong here, I'd be happy to hear it.)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:52 PM

Mark,

I have to agree, I think. I followed several of the "nefarious" leads in the article, and found nothing that didn't relate directly to a known operating function in Windows.

Several of his "plots" appear to revolve around a feature called "aliasing" that can be seen just by looking in your Windows Directory (or WINNT) at the "Fonts" folder. You will see the font names. If you copy the font files to another directory, and look in the new directory, you will see the font file names.

It's a pretty neat trick, and I suppose someone could see a plot there, but it is done for a reason and can be helpful, possibly even to the majority of users.

It can be annoying when Microsoft uses tricks like this coupled with their standard assumption that "all users are idiots," since it may hide things that those of us who are only mildly drain bamaged would really like to know.

The man with a spear is a god to one who never used anything but a rock?

John

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:04 PM

I haven't looked for the hidden archive files yet (I really don't understand DOS) but I mentioned the site to a friend who knows about such things, and who didn't believe me at first: he found an enormous hidden file on his computer which took a surprisingly long time to delete.  They do exist.  Incidentally, it's not just Microsoft that silts our hard drives up with junk; I found two Netscape archive files containing email attachments (graphics files from work) that I had deleted TWICE and had thought gone; they amounted to some 70mb.

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 01:00 PM

well, it gets curiouser & curiouser... I suspect the REAL truth lies somewhere in the middle. I have seen folks say they CAN view any files they want to, and I have seen reports by pretty competent guys who say that there ARE files that MS tries to keep you from accessing easily and deleting.

In this, as in many other things, it bears an attempt to get the truth, hmmm? And in the meantime, you'll humor me if I err on the side of caution. If MS were so beneign, would all those states have filed lawsuits and would the Justice dept have gotten so deeply involved?

There is a lot at stake...money and power...and as Enron and other debacles show, when money and power are issues, people, acting thru coporate entities just 'may' engage in many practices which assure them of continued dominance......and if being able to 'read' my PC at their leisure someday might give them leverage, why, I have no doubt they would try to design the system to make that possible.

Can they...have they...really tried and managed it? *shrug*...I will never be the expert, but will I continue to read opinions and articles? *grin*..... It would be nice to have it PROVED that there is no danger and no 'plot'....and that one can simple choose the product that works best for them.........lets see what we all think in 3-4 years...

Subject: RE: BS: seriously--about Microsoft, IE, Outlook
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 02:55 PM

This gets longish so -

RIDDLER PART 1

I have run through the complete article on "Microsoft's Really Hidden Files," and frankly I am amazed - that anyone would waste their time publishing this kind of junk.

"The Riddler's" repeated insistence that you need to reboot your machine into "real DOS mode" several times is quaint nonsense. EVERY action that he describes can be carried out in a DOS window.

For those not accustomed to using DOS, unless your setup has been altered, you can click on START, Run up to PROGRAMS and select MS-DOS. If your program list has been altered (some administrators like to remove the DOS shortcut) you can click START, RUN, type COMMAND and hit enter.

An ugly, usually blackish, window will open showing the DOS command prompt:

C:\Windows_

With the "_" flashing to indicate where you will type.

Since you want to look at the whole drive, and not just windows, you need to "change directory" to the C:\ location. Type CD\ and hit enter to get there.

Type DIR *.*/S and hit enter, and you will see a whole bunch of files flash by. These are the files that DOS or Windows Explorer ordinarily will show you.

If you want to actually read them, you can type DIR *.*/S/P where the P stands for page, or for those inclined to elegance, type DIR *.*/S|more, where the "|" is the "pipe" switch, that "pipes" the output of the DIR command through a "filter" named "MORE" to do exactly same thing that /P does. Either of these will show you one screenfull at a time. Hit any key (the spacebar works nicely) and the next screen will appear. Hit the key about 599 more times and you'll get through a typical Windows directory.

Unfortunately, you can't do much else untill you have "paged" through all the screens, unless you know that CONTROL Z will abort the listing (you may need to hit the Ctl-Z a couple of times).

An alternate way to see them all is to type something like:
DIR *.*/S > dirlist.txt

The > is a "redirect" which will send the listing to the file "dirlist.txt" instead of to the screen. (Use your own name for "dirlist" although the .txt is recommended to make it easier to find.) You can open the .txt file in Notepad, Wordpad, or Word, or another text processing program. Be warned - my full directory listing opens as a 331 page document in Word.

On the last screen, or at the end of the .txt listing, you will find the total number of files listed, total of file sizes, number of directories listed, and free space on the disk.

If you now substitute a different DOS command in place of "DIR" you get a different result. Type

ATTRIB *.*/S > attylist.txt

and you will create a text file that lists EVERY file on the drive.

EVERY SECRET HIDDEN NEFARIOUS REALLY HIDDEN SUBVERSIVE NASTY FILE mentioned in "MR RIDDLER's" anonymous revelations is in this list.

"REALLY HIDDEN?" I don't think so. ATTRIB *.*/S is just way too easy.

Since the ATTRIB (ATTRIBUTE) command doesn't list directories (usually) this gives you a somewhat smaller .txt file - only 292 pages for my machine.

Note: When you're done with the DOS window, type EXIT and hit enter. This is somewhat more reliable than using the "X" in the corner of the window to close.

John