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King Arthur needs your help
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Subject: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,lox Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:06 AM Hello folks, I haven't been around for some time, but a situation has arisen and I was compelled to come down the pub to ask the experts about it. I anticipate your usual (unusual?) enthusiasm and look forward to reaping the benefits of your collective extensive knowledge. I have been asked to help with the recording of a soundrack for an attraction at a theme park. The music must be representative of the era in which King Arthur is meant to have reigned. I am aware that opinions differ on this subject, but all comments will be considered valuable. I need to know specifically about what instruments were used and what modern instruments might act as substitutes. I would also appreciate information about any contemporary "Arthurian" performers you may be aware of, whether intentionally "Arthurian" or simply expert in the musical style of the era (I'm guessing 5th to 8th century AD) Anything else relevant that you might have to offer will be recieved gratefully. Cheers darlings, I know youwon't let me down. lox |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:13 AM "Top Pop Picts" should be the title of the album. Everything you choose will be fake. I suggest that you try and talk them into "World Music" of the period, which will allow you to smuggle in some Arab sounds (very politically correct this week), Gregorian Chant (all reconstructed and suspect), etc. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,Scabby Doug Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:26 AM Anyone professing to be an "expert" in the music of an "Arthurian era" is liar and a fraud OR hopelessly deluded. Our best guess would be as to the types of instruments they might have used. Anything else would be pure speculation.
Cheers
Steven |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:28 AM What they said... |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Jacob B Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:36 AM So now that we've admitted that we don't know anything for sure, what are the best guesses about what instruments would have been played, and what kind of music would have been played on them? |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:46 AM Well, whistles has been found in Neanderthal occupation layers, so whistles would be a safe bet. Drums go way back. The drum we call a dumbek has been found in the Czech Republic c. 1600 BC and in Iraq 2600 BC or thereabouts. I saw an ancient Greek soldier on a frieze holding a shield which bore a striking resemblance to a bodhran, so why not use a bodhran? Harps go way, way back. I just saw a sculture from the Fertile Crescent (court of Nebuchadnezzer or some such) showing a harper at work. Europe is only about 700 miles from one end to the other, so we can safely assume that all these had spread to Arthur's realm by the early middle ages. You might see what instruments the great museums such as the British Library, the National Museum of Ireland and the Victoria and Albert have in their collections.(These museum names are only approximate.) The others are right that almost nothing is known of the secular music (as opposed to the instruments) of Arthur's day. If I were you, I would listen to Celtic music for a while. Then I would play tunes entirely on the black keys of a piano for a while. Stir well, then notate the music that flows into your mind. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,maryrrf Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:03 AM You don't say where you are, but I know a group that would be perfect for what you want. They are based in Scotland but are currently touring in the US. They are almost exclusively percussion based, they are called "Clann an Drumma" which means "Children of the Drum". They generate an unbelievable energy when they perform. Check out their website at click here . You can pm me if you're interested because I'll be seeing them in a couple of weeks. I also have a friend who has written some excellent songs with Arthurian based subject matter. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peg Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:19 AM maybe get the music from Excalibur? At least recognizable? Carmina Burana, etc. also Renaissance dances from France ec. sound nicely authentic... |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:20 AM The only thing that's a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINTY is that the folks would HATE anything that DID resemble the primitive music of that time. I'd suggest you follow Hollywood's example and go for lutes, trumpet fanfares, gorgeous dark-haired actresses with finger cymbals (for that exotic 600 years before Saladin, Arab feel) Oops, and don't forget all the Roman names (remember Britain was 'occupied' for a long time) Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,lox Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:23 AM Tell me more about rennaissance dances from france Peg (the rest of you keep working)!!! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Willie-O Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:40 AM Maybe they didn't bother with music at all. Maybe Arthur had any upstart musicians put to death as unwholesome foreign influences on his attempts to unify Britain. Maybe Merlin invented the synthesizer and the electric guitar. Maybe Lancelot was a hell of a drummer. Who the hell knows! yeah, fake it. Don't get too Hollywood orchestral. But anything goes, really.
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:46 AM Arthur himself (if he existed) was sort of a relict of the Romans when they left. So you are really looking for late Roman popular music. I have to agree with a couple comments above, that the authentic popular music, if you could reproduce it for your purpose, would not be popular with theme-park customers. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:52 AM a quick look around says there could have been: single drone bagpipes (multiple drones evidently didn't get added until the 13 or 1400's) panflutes bladder-pipes rebecs transverse flutes recorders shawms harps psalterys
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:53 AM Late Roman Music! How about "XVI Candles?"; "XVI Tons?", "III Coins in the Fountain?"? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Pied Piper Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:11 AM MMario the instruments you suggest are too late for Arthur's period(450/550 ish)but would sound great together. I think the problem is that the Arthurian legend/myth contains elements from different periods; Celtic mythology, Christian Grail quest, medieval chivalric code, and various English monarchs political machinations. I'd go for a sort of Sparticus with a dollop of Celtic twilit. All the best PP |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:13 AM No evidence of reed or bowed instruments in Britain at that time, so far as I know. Doesn't necessarily mean there weren't any, but a lot of what you'll read out there is pure speculation (and sometimes pure fantasy!) Probably simple flutes, and small harps or lyres. Percussion of some kind. Maybe (and maybe not) some kind of horn. As several people have already said, it's pretty much impossible to reconstruct anything remotely authentic for that period in Britain; we just don't have the information. There's no evidence, incidentally, that the music of the time will even remotely have resembled what is thought of as "Celtic" nowadays, nor that it would mean much to the modern ear. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM well - according to the various websites I read all of them date back to at least the 500's - some back to the bc's; since the original poster stated 5th to 8th century... I'm not saying they were common - just that they could have existed. (though most of the pages I just scanned referred to rome and greece.)
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:35 AM Message for Peter T. VERRRRY funny! Just wanted you to know. Now back to those Arthurian instruments. I think MMario has made the best suggestion....THE BLADDER PIPE. It falls into the same category as THE NOSE FLUTE, so hunt down those 'period pipes', stick 'em into your bladders, and make some music. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:58 AM I know what's gonna happen -- we're gonna end up with a recording of Richard Burton singinig "Here in Caaaaa-meeeeee-LOT!!". Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Nerd Date: 06 Sep 02 - 12:06 PM Renaissance music would be a complete cop-out. Remember, the renaissance is considerably closer in time to today than to Arthur's era. Even Gregorian chant is way too recent for Arthur! I'd agree that we know nothing about what this music might sound like, but harps, pipes, whistles, horns and drums would be your best bet. Noseflutes, too, and, as a close perusal of Monty Python and the Holy Grail would tell you, butt-trumpets!
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: smallpiper Date: 06 Sep 02 - 12:16 PM Bagpipes were around in roman times - some have even accused the romans of introducing them to britain so single drone pipes would have been around at that time. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peg Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:12 PM I know the Renaissance was later than this period, but it is very nice music and it is quite frequently the sort of music used "authentically" in films depicting the era (as in Excalibur). Look for Renaissance dances from France or Brittany. John Renbourne has several albums which contain lovely arrangements of this stuff (like The Lady and the Unicorn). There are a couple of obscure bands whose tapes I can recommend: Mince Pye, and Dragons Fly. Also there is a group called Gothic Voices that did an album called The Service of Venus and Mars; mostly Gregorian style vocals but with women and men. Also I have a CD called "Istanpitta" which says it is medieval dances from New York's ensemble for early music...contains 13th century French and English tunes. Very nice stuff. My own former band Urban Myth does some of this music, too, on shawm, flute, recoder, oboe, guitar and harp. Maybe the Baltimore Consort, too, Anonymous Four, or The Tallis Scholars; but this is mostly vocal music. Good luck!
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peg Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:17 PM I know the Renaissance was later than this period, but it is very nice music and it is quite frequently the sort of music used "authentically" in films depicting the era (as in Excalibur). Look for Renaissance dances from France or Brittany. John Renbourne has several albums which contain lovely arrangements of this stuff (like The Lady and the Unicorn). There are a couple of obscure bands whose tapes I can recommend: Mince Pye, and Dragons Fly. Also there is a group called Gothic Voices that did an album called The Service of Venus and Mars; mostly Gregorian style vocals but with women and men. Also I have a CD called "Istanpitta" which says it is medieval dances from New York's ensemble for early music...contains 13th century French and English tunes. Very nice stuff. My own former band Urban Myth does some of this music, too, on shawm, flute, recoder, oboe, guitar and harp. Maybe the Baltimore Consort, too, Anonymous Four, or The Tallis Scholars; but this is mostly vocal music. Good luck!
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:23 PM James Merryweather (quite an authority on early music) recently commented: "Bagpipes have contributed to music making for a very long time, possibly (probably?) originating in the countries around the Mediterranean, it can be reasonably estimated, more than two thousand years ago. It has been said that the Romans had a bagpipe, perhaps the instrument played by Nero, who perhaps piped rather than fiddled as Rome burned. That there was an early Italian bagpipe is not unlikely, although little of any worth has ever been published to support the idea. Even so, over-optimistic authors have extrapolated some very flimsy data to support a theory that the Romans ("therefore") introduced the bagpipe into the British Isles...-James Merryweather, Regional Bagpipes: History or Bunk? (EFDSS Members' Newsletter, vol. 64 no. 2, Summer 2002). All we can reasonably say is that it is not impossible that some form of bagpipe was known in Britain in what we take to be the Arthurian period; that doesn't mean that it is likely. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM well - couldn't aurthur have imported some to raise the "tone" of the locals? |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Nerd Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:48 PM I suppose the difference is in what we mean by Arthur's Era. Movies like Excalibur, for example, are based on 13th century French romances and thus the entire technology and culture represented is much later than the late Roman/ 5th Century. If this theme park wants to represent Arthur wearing plate armor and carrying a broadsword, then I would say all of Peg's suggestions are good ones, and this is likely to be what the theme park wants. If, on the other hand, they want to represent Arthur as a Celtic chieftain, then something older would be better. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM if it is a theme park - they probably want to do both - portray Authur as a celto-roman chieftain AND have him in full plate armor! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Sep 02 - 02:06 PM Exactly so. Go for 12th or 13th century stuff; probably Southern French. It won't be authentic, but they will never know the difference; and it will be of the right period for most of the content of the Arthurian romances. And, of course, you get to use shawms, bagpipes and nackers... |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,maryrrf Date: 06 Sep 02 - 02:30 PM Just out of curiosity, what theme park is this? |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: alanabit Date: 06 Sep 02 - 03:54 PM Basically, I would say that the trick is to dress up everyone in the sort of kit which is used in Hollywood films about the Arthurian legends and then get your musicians to make the sort of racket which forms the soundtrack to those sort of films. Trying to replicate a historically accurate court of the fourth, fifth or even tenth century (claimed for Arthur by some) is always going to be a thankless task for uncertain reward. People like to believe it looked and sounded like the Hollywood version - so that's what I'd give them! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:19 PM HI, and welcome to CORT, the voice of Arthur's Court, bringing you music of the highest calibre, not to say Excaliber!!!!! (Sound of medieval bagpipe collapsing). Spinning the Round Discs for all the guys and gauls around the Round Table, Druid to me baby, and we're sending this one out to Sir Galahad's secret dreamboat (get away from the mirror, honey, it's catching), straight up the Appian Way, and into your heart!!!! Yes, it's St. Augustine with that old country fave: "She May Have Been A Christian, But She Had A Lion Heart"!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:31 PM *gurk* |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Sorcha Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:55 PM ssssppppeeeeewwww........That is too funny, Peter. I wish lox would come back and explain a little more about the park--where, when, etc. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:20 PM LOL, PT! The Golden Fingers ride again!! A |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Hippie Chick Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM Recorders would be good. And sure, wouldn't a bard of some sort have been singin' a praise song of the Great Deeds of King Arthur? |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:51 PM That was "V O'Clock World" from Bodacious Boadacia and the Woadettes, our spatterplatter for the week, and for you sports fans here are the latest updates from the Tourney: Angles IV, Saxons IX; Jutes VII, Scots XI; Danes VI, Monks 0 (Hey, don't write in, that's the new Arab slang!, means zippo, nada, null, sure have needed that given the way Lindisfarne has been playing recently!!! Zero, where have you been all our lives? And speaking of Zero, here's our "FAVOUR OF THE WEEK" going out to Modred from the 3rd chick from the left in the Queen's retinue -- it's the latest from Joseph and the Arimatheans, "My Boyfriend's Back from the First Crusade, And Is He Cross!!!" |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:04 PM Cracking up here!! PT is a pure X! A |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: The Walrus Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:06 PM If you don't mind dealing with re-enactors (apparently there are some people who do) and you are based in the UK (or thereabouts) try contacting a group called "Britannia" (I don't know if they have a web presence, but they probably do), they speciallise in late Roman/Romano-Brittish so they may be able to help, failing that "Regia Angolorum" (www.regia.org), they are a little later (9th - 11th Century IIRC), but they may be able to help. Walrus |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Micca Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM There are recordings of David Munrow etc with early renaissance music on them that may be still available, and may be suitable. On the question of When was Arthur, I have heard it suggested that Arthur should be dated to the end of the bronze age as the (so called) "magic" sword Excalibur was simply the arrival of an Iron sword and its strength compared to Bronze would have appeared like Magic, also "the Lady of the lake" is a reference to the "tempering" in the water, and that the True King who could" draw the sword from the stone" was the the person that new the secret of smelting iron!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:40 PM Hey, squires and knaves, Bring Your Car, Your Cash, and Your Cutie, out to the Dragon Race Tonight at Glastonbury Speedway!!!!! First 100 in win a free visor for the guys, and one of those upside down ice cream cone hats for the damsels! And now a big request going out to the Lady in the Lake, clothed in white samite, mystic, wonderful, from Sir Bedivere, with this message: "Was that a sword in your hand, or were you just glad to see me?" And to help them on the way to plighting their troth, or waxing wroth, or giving each other their plight, here's the latest from Chuck Mistletoe and the Vikings: "Cymbeline, Why Can't You Be True?" |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: greg stephens Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:41 PM Well, avoid anything "renaissance" or " Celtic".No Enya. personally my guess is have a listen to Afghan/Iranian/Turkish music( probably not Arab), a bit of Irish sean nos singing, the May Day Padstowe drummers and some Moroccan hardline music, and Balkan bagpipes(in no circumstances try modern Anglo/Scottish/Irish bagpipers). Add a touch of English rural souce singers and fiddlers and youre away. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:49 PM As I trotted my stout steed upon the knowe Espied Cymbeline. and cried, "How now!" "Fair of form and pale of brow, Wouds't thou not my plight bestow?" Cymbeline! How is't with thee? Oh, Cymbeline! How is't with thee? Thy favors give to everyone but me! (Noseflute in savage four-four modal scale fades....) |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:55 PM Another instrument that MIGHT go back far enough: The rumbledrum! Pretty sure it's pre-Renaissance, at least. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:58 PM Peter...I'm afraid you're wasted. And I mean that in the best possible way. Rick |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM Funny, Amos! (Any more verses? "How is't with thee" -- cracks me up) yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:59 PM Thanks, PT -- brightened my day!! I'm afraid the whole thing is much too Elizabethan to qualify as Arthurian, but I think the problem is that most of the history of clan Fingal was only documented in Elizabethan or later periods. I'll see if I can come up with some more tonight!! Warm regards, A |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Art Thieme Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:04 PM I do suspect that any of the songs I put on any of my records would be exactly what you are searching for. All of those are most definitely Arthurian. Go for it !!!!! Arthur David Thieme |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:33 PM You guys are too much! Go on! (she says as she tries to tune in CORT on her radio) |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Nerd Date: 07 Sep 02 - 12:33 AM Well, I'll be...Art's an Arthurian Thieme... |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Bo Vandenberg Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:11 AM Guest, You probably should be clear with us (and your organizers) When this Arthur is supposed to be from. Gildas (an Early Text source) places Arthur 5th Cent. CE Welsh writings seem to indicate closer to 8th century. The Court of high chivaly with, Galahad etc... is entirely a 12 century invention. (Centering in France). Arguably the most famous book "La Mort Arthur" is from the late 15th century. Much of what the public recognises as fashion comes from PreRaphaelite paintings of the late 19th century. All of these have their own popular historical value. Perhaps more useful to you would be some sort of profile of who your audience is and just what sort of message you are trying to convey? If you are asked to represent them all I suggest you be broad in your music selection or seek to reflect the diversity with more than one show. Bo |
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