Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

A very accomplished version

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:36 PM

Snuffy, thank you. Thank God for the kindness of strangers, and the elasticity of the English language.

John McCain, he bought a house,
His wife bought seven more,
Wouldn't if be lovely,
If he gave one to the poor

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: topical tom
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

Here are a few other verses:

                He set that old clucking hen
                Couple of weeks ago.
                He set her on three buzzard eggs
                And she hatched out one old crow.

                Old Joe had a muley cow;
                She was muley when she was born.
                It took a jaybird forty years
                To fly from horn to horn.

                Old Joe had an old gray mule,
                Lord but she could travel;
                Every step that she did take
                Was up to her knees in gravel.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 01:12 AM

In keeping with the rural nature of many of the verses for Old Joe Clark, how about this one:

John McCain, he bought a pig,
Cause he loved to hear her squeal,
He paraded her around the town
In lipstick and high heels.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:36 AM

As a very keen ceilidh dancer I can tell you it is not only popular with ceilidh bands but they all do it well - if it is simple then they have found ways of embellishing it. And it is very danceable. Add to that the Appalacian display teams that use it.

Having said that, I don't recall hearing it as a song.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM

There may be no way of ever confirming this, but I wonder if a verse of "Old Joe Clark" was the source for a contemporary British playground rhyme?

Here's the verse from "Old Joe Clark":

Old Joe Clark, the preacher's son,
Preached all over the plain,
The only text he ever knew
Was "high low jack and the game".

-snip-

Here's a post from another Mudcat thread about a version of the British children's handclap rhyme:

Subject: RE: Gigalo & other children's rhymes &cheers
From: Jeanie - PM
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM

Very interesting how these rhymes etc. are spread across continents.

Version of the above, called "Jackalo", as a handclapping song, played by middle-class white British girls in private school, Essex, just outside Greater London, end 20th/beginning 21st century:

My name is [each partner holds hands together, palm to palm, as if "praying", then each pair of hands brushes the other]

Hands now parted. Partners face each other.
[Whilst the rest of the song is sung, left hand is held straight out, as if waiting to shake hands. Right hands meet, high and low, to match the rhythm of the song]:

Hi, low, Jackalo, Jackalo, Jackalo,
Hi, low, Jackalo, Jackalo and HIGH !

- jeanie
thread.cfm?threadid=100807&messages=28

**

My theory is that the American children's handclap rhyme or children's foot stomping cheer "Gigalo" {"Jigalo"} might have come from that British {and other countries'?} children's handclap rhyme.

A verse from that "Gigalo" {"Jigalo"} rhyme/cheer is

My hands up high
My feet down low
And this is the way
I gig a lo

{see the link above for the complete rhyme/cheer}

**

So, according to my theory, both of these children's playground rhymes would have their source in a line which refers to a card game.

I know very little about cards. Can anyone tell me which game or games of cards "high low jack" or "high low jack and the game" refer to? .

I'd love to have feedback on this theory that a line from "Old Joe Clark" might have been a source of these children's rhymes.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:43 PM

Btw, GUEST,Jim, kudos on your updated verses for this song as found in your 24 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM and your 17 Oct 08 - 01:12 AM post!

I'm guessing that the "pig" in your last post comes from the state of Alaska {and I'm praying that she goes back there soon}.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: NormanD
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM

I saw a reference above to "Sex & Drugs & Rock 'n' Roll" and how they are melodically similar.

The story is that Ian Dury took the tune from "Old Joe Clark" after haring Charlie Haden's bass solo on Ornette Coleman's "Ramblin" - he breaks into OJC.

Now that's what I call living tradition - a folk song becomes a jazz solo becomes a rock anthem and a verbal quotation.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:56 AM

Verses in Randolph-Legman, heard in MO, c. 1895:

I went up on the mountain top
To give my horn a toot,
Thought I heard Lucindy say
Come on with your jackass root!

Old Joe Clark growed lots of corn,
An' he et so much of it,
Corn bread, ash cake, hominy too,
Tumblebugs had to shuck his shit.

Vol. 1, p. 428.
Many more in that vein.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

Well, I've just come across this thread and looked at the original question and thought NO.

I've been going to folk clubs and festivals since 1972 (loads of them in England and Wales) and I've never heard any of the word sets mentioned above. In fact I've never heard any words set to the tune and I've only heard the tune in the last 10 years.

Perhaps it is an example of a tune/song that is well known to a subset of folkies but it is certainly not universal.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

Unless one is a square dancer or fiddler, or interested in old American folk or popular music, guest bbcw is probably correct.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 11:16 AM

I picked up a copy of Mother Goose Rhymes, and there were the same words used in Old Joe Clark, Little Liza Jane, Whoa, Mule, Whoa, etc.. Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 06:19 PM

The earliest reference I've seen to the tune/song is from the "Asheville [N.C.] Daily Citizen" of July 8, 1892:

“At night, the banjos were brought out, and to the strains of ‘Old Joe Clarke’ and ‘Pretty Little Liza Jane’ and ‘I’m gwine down to town,’ the puncheons resounded to the tread of the ‘dancers dancing in tune.’”

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST,Marcia Palmater
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 10:34 PM

This thread wouldn't be complete without a mention of the musical coop house that existed for many years in Cambridge, Mass. Old Joe Clark was a 3-story Victorian; you had to be a musician to live there. Traveling musicians would crash there and many musicians, including Pete Seeger, owned shares in the house. Many times when the phone rang it would be answered by someone grabbing the nearest instrument and playing a few bars of the tune.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 06:04 PM

Marcia: I used to go the lively monthly sings organized by Don Duncan. Sandy Sheehan of Sandy's Music lived there. It was done in by real estate in 2000 (I think).f

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 03:23 AM

Guest: “Which came first? Chicken or the egg?”

Rooster.


Eliza Jane; Lucy Long; Old Joe and Pomp (Pompey) were all stock minstrel characters pretty much from the start (c.1840.)

“Many are the verses and variations to Liza Jane, but "Old Joe Clark" is the banner song for length. "There are one hundred and forty-four verses to 'Old Joe Clark,' though I don't know all of them," modestly affirmed a popular "caller" in Nolan County.”

46. OLD JOE CLARK.
Old Joe Clark is dead and gone,
I hope he's doin well(1)
He made me wear the ball and chain
Till it made my ankles swell.

Chorus—

Round and round, old Joe Clark,
Round and round, I say;
Round and round, old Joe Clark,
I ain't got long to stay.

Eighteen pounds of meat a week,
Bacon (candy) here to sell,
How can a young man stay at home,
When the gals all look so well.

Old Joe Clark had a big white house,
Sixteen stories high,
And every room in that old house
Was filled with chicken pie.

Old Joe Clark is mad at me,
I'll tell you the reason why,
I went down to old Joe's house
And ate all his chicken pie.

Old Joe Clark had a possum dog
So blind he couldn't see;
He treed a chigger on a log,
And thought it was a flea.

(1) In more boisterous gatherings a more profane wish is expressed in this
line.

[Thompson, Stith, ed., Some Texas Party-Play Songs, Publications of the Folk-Lore Society of Texas, No.1, (Austin, 1916, p.32)]

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 03:32 AM

Lyr Add: Miss Lucy Long (minstrel)

Lyr Req: Rock the Cradle Joe

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 07:00 PM

People who should know better (including the editors of the Ballad Index) take at face value the claim that "Old Joe Clark" "dates from" 1842.

The sole reference given (perhaps taken from Cox's "Folk Songs of the South, 1925) is to Halliwell-Phillips's "The Nursery Rhymes of England "(London, 1842).

But here's the entire nursery rhyme on p.135 (with no suggestion that it was ever sung):

WHEN I was a little boy my mammy kept me in,
But now I am a great boy I’m fit to serve the king;
I can hand a musket, and I can smoke a pipe,
And I can kiss a pretty girl at twelve o'clock at night.

Not exactly "Old Joe Clark," is it?

OK, "When I was a little boy .... But now I am a great boy" is a lot like "When I was a little boy...But now I am a great big boy." All that suggests is that the creator of the corresponding OJC stanza knew this rhyme or something similar. But "OJC" is a whole lot more than those two phrases, and that's not even counting the distinctive tune.

The earliest ref. to OJC I've unearthed is this, from the Asheville [N.C.] Daily Citizen (July 8, 1892), p.1:

“At night, the banjos were brought out, and to the strains of ‘Old Joe Clarke’ and ‘Pretty Little Liza Jane’ and ‘I’m gwine down to town,’ the puncheons resounded to the tread of the ‘dancers dancing in tune.’”

All of the few references to the tune/song before 1910 seem to be from North Carolina papers. No texts or musical transcriptions, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: reggie miles
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 02:20 AM

I worked up a slippery bottleneck slide version of the melody and wrote a song (parody?) loosely using this melody structure called, "I Went To The Country Fair."

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: reggie miles
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 02:42 AM

I Went To The Country Fair (Fare Thee Well Jerry Garcia)
By Reggie Miles ©2012 All rights reserved
(Loosely to the tune of Old Joe Clark)

I went to the Country Fair
That Teddy Bear's picnic treat
Patchouli sweat & tie dye lust
To find some vegan meat
To find some vegan meat
Find some vegan meat to eat
To find some vegan meat

I went to the Country Fair
Hungry for somethin new
But every booth I found there
Sold organic tofu stew
Free range tofu stew
Certified organic through n through
Free trade tofu stew

Fare thee well Jerry Garcia
Fare thee well I say
I'm bound for ol Veneta town
To the Country Fair today

Fare thee well Jerry Garcia
Fare thee well I'm gone
Been walkin 1500 miles
Singin this ol song
Singin this ol song
Singin this song all day long
Singin this ol song

I went to the Country Fair
To laugh n dance n sing
So much music filled the air
My ears began to ring

I went to the Country Fair
Hitched till my feet got sore
Had so much fun while I was there
I'm goin' back for more
I'm goin back for more
I'm goin back for more, for more
I'm goin back for more

Fare thee well Jerry Garcia
Fare thee well I say
I'm bound for ol Veneta town
To the Country Fair today

Fare thee well Jerry Garcia
Fare thee well I'm gone
I walked for 1500 miles
Jus singin this ol song
Singin this ol song
Singin this song all day long
Woncha sing along

Fare thee well Jerry Garcia
Fare thee well my friend
I've sang my ass off all day long
I guess this is the end

Fare thee well Jerry Garcia
Fare thee well I go
I'll sing this line just once mo
Then that's the end of my show
That's the end of my show
It's off to bed I go, I go
Cuz that's the end of my show

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:28 AM

We also use it as a tune for dancing: last tune for our Virginia Reel set. It does somehow drive the dancers wild, especially when I drop an octave in the left hand on keyboard: thunderous finale!

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 05:21 AM

The simple tunes are really good to dance to. Strong structure to get people moving to the music. I often use Winster Gallop for Galopede as a first dance. The 2 bar, 2 bar, 4 bar A makes it easy to go forward and back and cross over.
And yes, it's great as a novice player to play a simple tune at a session and have everyone join in and raise the roof. And maybe the people at the bar even join in and sing Blaydon Races.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 09:12 AM

The Journal of American Folklore offers one stanza and a chorus from Tennessee in 1905 and a different stanza (no chorus) from Mississippi in 1909.

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 01:33 PM

A slightly earlier reference to the tune, again from North Carolina:

Morganton [N.C.] Herald (Feb. 6, 1890):

"John Branch, who escaped from Morganton jail,...was recaptured by jailor Ward last Friday night. Branch, who is an expert fiddler, was playing 'Old Joe Clarke' at a dance at John Piercy's, three miles above Piedmont Springs, and was taken completely by surprise."

Subject: RE: Old Joe Clark. THE folk song/tune?
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 12:50 AM

It's an interesting tune, Dorian mostly. Fun to play, but I wish it weren't so short.