BS: Farewell To Mudcat II

Subject: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:30 AM

This is the second time I've posted one of these but this time it is in acrimonious circumstances although it may be greeted with cheers from many departments... I've been told to (quote) "fuck off" by Max who will never speak to me again (not that he ever did :-) ) so that is the end.

Where does that leave me and the Annexe, etc.?

Max seems to hate the Annexe (he said he will never support it although he of course did use it to post info when he had problems during his move) but Pip loves it and feels that she has made many friends there. To that end, I am transferring ownership and control of the Annexe to Pip (she is only my mother and doesn't neccessarily agree with any of my thoughts and should not be dragged into any of my own issues) although obviously I am going to have to help her with the technical side. Other than that, it is entirely hers, her choice who she wants to open it to, what purposes she wants it for, etc. and she has to see where it goes.

As for me, I intend starting another folk forum which I hope to have running within 2 weeks but it could be a little longer as I need a new domain, probably swap domain names as I think it would be easier for Pip if she wasn't jonbanjo.com and have a bit of programming to do...

The site will be member only and although there will be a small community element, it will aim to focus on Music and not get overloaded or obscured by "shatner threads", etc. It will also contain a database for traditional songs to be built from scratch by interested parties. The aim here will be to provide accuracy, quality, detailed notes on the songs if possible and to provide tunes in ABC format. I'm hoping that I will also be able to generate Midi and Gif formats from the ABC.

I am open to any suggestions and if anyone feels they have anything to offer in terms of suggestions or maybe later development, or moderating or admin and are willing to work as a team, perhaps even leading a team within the forum structure, please feel free to contact me at [e-mail].

Whether the site takes off or not remains to be seen but I feel it is worth a try and I am optimistic, and I feel that I will be able to offer facilities that Mudcat doesn't or can (or will) not. I also dont have the worries of 1Gb of database space, 1/2 of which is dross or of wasted bandwidth on "shatner", "NYTTCS", etc. to consider so I should be able to operate on a very low budget.

Max seems to have thought my motives were transparent, and I'm now ending up trying to do what I suspect many thought I wanted here, when in fact I'm doing something I never wanted... rather, that I feel my hand has been forced and I've nowhere else to go...

If my new site does gain some support, in a perverse sort of way, I hope Max does respond to the "fight" (something Max suggested in a PM without any suggestion of me starting up something new) and he develops new features at Mudcat to counter any development efforts I make and he adopts more of a team work approach, etc. I may not be welcome here but people here would still gain and my criticisms of Mudcat, of course, would then have been vindicated as Max will have proved that he could (and should) have done more all along the line.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 10:08 AM

Much as I don't like to see ugly conflict between two people I like and respect, I'm glad you're taking your feelings and energy in a generally positive direction, Jon.

Will be interested to see how your new site develops.

Personally I gotta admit, I'm looking forward to a time when the name "Shatner" is not even a memory...

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: AliUK
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 11:08 AM

Farewell Jon and good luck with the new site. Hope to visit it someday. As an accomplice with the Shatner thread thing...it´s a bit of fun in a forum of friends who have a common interest. I don´t know what your beef with Max is and it´s none of my business, but yes I do join in the ´fun´stuff as well as using the database here and contributing where I feel I have something to contribute in the music threads. I thought that was what an internet community was about. Good luck with a MEMBERS only forum...sounds a bit elitist to me...but then again what would a no-brain idiot like me know?

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:14 PM

Yep - good luck, Jon. Sorry to see you go and hope you will still attend the gatherings.

When can we expect the first 'JonCat'(tm) gathering? The more events the merrier as far as I am concerned. :-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:26 PM

Joe...

Keep up the good work mate! I like what you did with the Annex quite a bit, even though I only went there when The Cat was down...

Keep me in the loop when ya get yer new place hoppin eh!

I'm always keen to find another good Message Board...

P.S... EVERY Message Board on the net worth it's salt, requires or at least encourages membership, and reserves the right to delete spam, flames and off topic garbage...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: annamill
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:28 PM

You know Jon, just thought I'd mention something. This thread wouldn't be allowed on your site. It's not really music related is it?

Good luck! Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:38 PM

Huh?

Last time I checked the Annex Forum, there was NO music forum there at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: AliUK
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:38 PM

well pointed out anna.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:43 PM

Being as none of you know anything about the shape and form Jon's new site might take, don't you think starting to criticise it already is a little premature?

Ed

(you'll probably point out that I wouldn't be able to post to it, now. Sigh...)

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: annamill
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:43 PM

*******************************************************

As for me, I intend starting another folk forum which I hope to have running within 2 weeks

The site will be member only and although there will be a small community element, it will aim to focus on Music and not get overloaded or obscured by "shatner threads", etc

*********************************************************

I'm sorry. Did I misunderstand? I thought Jon said he was starting a music site, didn't he?

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM

Yes Anna, that's correct.

You don't however know what form the small community element might take, hence your initial post is absurd, not to mention mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM

Ahhh... thought you ment Jons current site Annamill...

read ya 5X5 now...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Watson
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 12:48 PM

Wasn't it stated that music threads started on the Annexe when Mudcat was down would be transferred to Mudcat - that would explain why there are no music threads on the Annexe.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: annamill
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:09 PM

Oh I thought I was being funny. I'm sorry Jon. I didn't mean to be mean. I really meant the good luck.

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:19 PM

Jon - You've been, and will continue to be, a friend to me. You'll do fine and I would hope you'd let me know how things go and when you will be up and running. The Indians have a great saying - "There are no endings - only new beginnings."

Do well -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: annamill
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:24 PM

"You've been, and will continue to be, a friend to me"

Norton1, isn't that what Leonard Nemoy said to William Shatner in one of the Star Trek movies?

**BG** ;-) ---> JOKE

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:27 PM

Yes, annamill

The Star Trek writers made use of an ancient Indian saying...

Jeez, talk about banal comments...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: annamill
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:31 PM

Oh Guest, lighten up willya! Of course it was banal! It was making fun of all the shatner crap going on. Why don't you sign your name! <--- not a question.

PS...is this flaming...?

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:46 PM

Annamill,

Your comments or mine?

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:59 PM

Best Luck, Jon.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 02:04 PM

If it's a member only site, that means only one person can be named GUEST, right? ;-)
Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 02:10 PM

good luck with your new venture jon, see you at gatherings?

Cheers

Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 02:18 PM

Guests appearances not allowed - who would we ignore then?
OK OK I asked for it, no one bother to reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 02:57 PM

Best of luck Jon. Keep us posted about what you are up to.

I can't see myself ceasing to frequent the Mudcat. Naturally.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 03:11 PM

Ta-ra Jon. KBI

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 03:22 PM

to defend Jon...

to claim that this thread would not be allowed on Jon's forum because it is not about music is absurd! It is about music because it is about the establishment of a new internet music forum in response to another music forum's non-musical content. If we were members of Jon's forum and wished to post about another music website/forum/list, that would count as a music thread, I imagine. So even without Jon's "small community element," this thread would be an appropriate one on a music forum.

I point this out only because people seem to be snidely sniping at the very idea of a list that is sharply focused on musical discussions, by trying to show how this one is superior even by Jon's standards. But they're wrong. For people who want to discuss music, Mudcat can be frustrating. I think many of us members who joined in the last couple of years thought Mudcat would be much more about music.

Don't get me wrong, or call me ungrateful, etc. I don't much mind the Shatner crap, the anti-Zionist diatribes, the discussions of Spaw's health, the BS, in short. I understand how it fits with Joe and Max's "no-censorship" philosophy, and even though I may disagree with a lot of it, I just skip it. And i still like the Mudcat, BS and all. But I also understand that another forum, along Jon's lines, could potentially be a great thing.

Let us know when it's running, Jon.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 03:31 PM

This is to Jon, in the open instead of by PM, because I am an open person, and as someone who has been a good friend to him.

Jon, I think you are taking the eaiser way instead of facing some issues you have created and perpetuated, but I wish you all the best regardless. It's my experience that the easy way is a circular one which always leads us right back to another opportunity to choose the harder, more personally-productive way. So I look forward to continuing to being your friend, then, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 04:35 PM

Nothing wrong with a little competition, I say. Jon good luck.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 04:56 PM

All the best to you Jon. I'll continue to frequent both sites even though on a limited basis in the future. We all must move forward regardless of the good times in the past. Here's to the future!

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: mooman
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 05:33 PM

Good luck in your new venture Jon though it's a pity to see you leave this forum. However, I respect your decision.

You know my contact details so let me know when your new site is up and running and I'll contribute to it while remaining an active member here.

All the very best,

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 06:36 PM

Good luck Jon -I've tried the Annexe a couple of times and it wasn't me and I am happy with Mudcat the way it is -the technocrap doesn't interest me! I wish you well.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 06:56 PM

Reminds me of Cartman, the fat kid on "South Park":

"Screw you guys -- I'm going home."

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:27 PM

WYSIWYG, was that a joke?

Everyone else wished Jon well

You choose to tell us how good a friend YOU are.

Sermon/Mount/Meek come to mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:32 PM

Best of luck to you, and I hope that your site will be as successful as Mudcat has been, and that it will become everything that you want it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:56 PM

Good luck, the more the merrier --- but I find it easier just not to open the Shatner threads.....

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:13 PM

See now, this is the first thing that has made sense to me in all the back and forth criticism of this place.

Good on ye, John, for taking a proactive approach. I only wish it did not have to be accompanied by still more criticism and posting about stuff that really *should* have been left in PM's.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:16 PM

When I first became involved in Mudcat I was looking for information about music. Why I keep coming to and supporting to Mudcat is because along with the music information and general horsing around my needs have been served. And served very well. I'd prefer to see chords accompany lyrics more often tho'.

I expect I'll visit Jon's site about as often as I do the Cat because I am looking for information and here will be another resource. I hope Jon's site has a similar format because the Cat is so easy to use. For me it is the easiest I have found.

One thing I recall early on in my visit to Mudcat was a thread that some members began telling less knowledgable members that to answer their questions was a waste of time and their topics weren't scholarly enough. I hope this will not be the case with Jon's new site.

I look forward to it with great expectation and anticipation of a fine new resource.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST,Going AWOL!!!!
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:17 PM

A capital idea, Jon!!! I'll gladly decamp. No more self-righteous, holier than thou, I know best, patronization, or threats from the people who ruined this site! Yahoo!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:21 PM

I think that what Jon's doing is great!

Too often the response to flamers has been: 'well start your own site'

Well Jon has/will

Good on you Jon!

Look forward to a 'Shatner-less' discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Robin2
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:47 PM

Jon,

Good luck, and how do we find out when your site is running?

I love Mudcat, but there's never too many music forums!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: alison
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:01 PM

sorry to see you go Jon, good luck with the site.... let us know the address when you get it going...

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:11 PM

I will be sorry to see you go Jon, though I do understand your reasons for leaving, good luck with your new website.All the best.john

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:48 PM

Jon,
I wish you the best of luck with your new site. You were the first Mudcatter to make me welcome here. I haven't forgotten. Be well, my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 10:06 PM

Good luck Jon! I will be interested in your new forum/site. As much as I like Mudcat (though I too wish the Bull Shit threads would disappear, but I like the Breeze Shooting ones), I also like alot of variety, and I like your general slant on things.

Peace Brother.

Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 12:59 AM

I don't even know what the Annexe is or how to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 01:08 AM

The Annexe

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 02:08 AM

What an excellent idea Jon - though a lot of work & a bit of a challenge. Fun though - and I know you're more than capable.

So, best of luck with the new site, and I'm sure it will fill the niche for those of us who are more than a little fed up with the BS & in-fighting. And it will take nothing away from the Mudcat, so we should be in that rare situation where everyone is happy!

KRis

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 03:50 AM

Best of luck Jon: I'll try to visit you in your new 'Home'

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:59 AM

The first timwe I got to speak to Martin Carthy I asked a folk music questions and he dutifully answered. One minute later he was deep in engaging conversation about the various merits of shoes and where to buy good value. I ASK YOU. IN A FOLK CLUB.
It is not without a huge measure of relavance to Mudcat.
Its all about ballance and interaction. If Mudcat got it out of kilter I would vote with my fingers.
I am sure a forum with restriction of subjects to music &/or folk has a worthwhile place but it does carry a dryness quotient.
I can be an anorak with the best of them but......
Anyway - good luck and if you want a link on my site - cresby.com get in touch.
FWIW the Shatner threads I avoided, but then I avoided a lot of Lyric Requests if I could not contribute.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell To Mudcat II
From: C-flat
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 11:17 AM

I'll look forward to visiting your site and wish you "Good Luck".