English music compared to Celtic music

Subject: English music compared to Celtic music
From: blind will
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 11:03 PM

This is the first topic I have created here.

For starters I am using the term "English Music" in this thread to refer to the traditional music that springs from England and originating with non-Celtic Anglo Saxon people (eg.ballads,jigs), as well as any more contemperary versions that stay true to it's basic structures and sound.I am not refering to just any music in the English language (eg.rock,classical).

Now when it comes to Celtic music most of us have a fairly good idea of what that is and what it sounds like.I realise there have been debates about what is and isn't Celtic (debates of that kind exist for possibly any music category).But most of us know enough about Celtic music to know that U2 is not stylisticly Celtic, even though they come from Ireland.Most people won't even use the term "Irish music" to refer to U2.So I'm not going to bother defining Celtic music for people.

With this introduction out of the way, I would like to get down to what this thread is really about:

It has been my observation that Celtic music is much more well known and emphasised in culture than English music.As a result most people can instantly or quickly recognise the Celtic sound in a matter of seconds, be it traditional stuf by The Chieftons, Celtic-rock of the Pogues, or Celtic tinged new age material by Enya (which leans stronger on the new age/adult contemperary side of things).But how many of us would be able to instantly or quickly recognise the English sound in a matter of seconds, be it traditional, English-rock, or English tinged new age music? I doubt that most of us would recognise it quickly if at all, since most rarely get any exposure to it (including myself).

Another result of the emphasis of Celtic sounds over English tunes in the world today, is the fact that English music is often overlooked in written music history or diminished in it's importance.For example when books or articles write about bluegrass or country music, you often hear about the Scots-Irish roots of this music, but there doesn't seem to be that much mention about the English contribution.The English after all brought over there jigs, fiddle tunes, and ballads to America, just like the Scots and Irish did.The English also imported the Sacred Harp singing style to New England and America (though a Celtic flavour can often be heard in it).

Continued with 5 questions I have on this subject, and related comments.....

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: blind will
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 11:40 PM

Some questions I have concerning English music include the following:

1.What are some examples of traditional English music?
(I have read about The Copper Family and have heard some examples of others, but my knowledge and exposure is very limited).

2.Is there any examples of bands or singers mixing up traditional English with rock (similar to what the Pogues did with Celtic-Irish)? And is there any other examples of contemperary hybrids of the English sound or tinge?

3.What is the basic difference between Celtic and English music (eg.scales,song structures,singing style,etc), especialy since both England and the Celtic lands have shared some of the same genres such as ballads, jigs and lining out of psalms? I am aware of certain things they have in common, and have a tiny bit of an idea where they differ (by ear) but want to understand it better.

4.How much did Celtic music influence English music, and visa versa? The fact that both the Celtic people (eg.Irish) and the English have a very similar accent suggests a cultural exchange of some kind.Obviously they are both geographicly close to one another, which often results in mutual borrowing.From what I've read, the lined out Psalm singing began in England and spread to Scotland, so that would be one example of an English element crossing into Celtic territoty.But what about jigs for example? Who had the jig first, the Celtics or the English? I've read that jig music may have originaly been of Italien origin, but not shure about that.And what about the British narrative ballad, which more times than not has been sung in the English language, be it England or Scotland?

5.In the Classic Christmas Carol movie (featuring Alistair Sim as Ebenezer Scrooge) we see the familiar holiday tale that takes place in London England.In one part of the movie Scrooge dances away to some happy piano music.Is this a good example of traditional English music? (Some people might laugh at this question, but I say bah humbug to you!)

Well those are all my questions (for now anyway).I don't expect everyone to answer all 5 questions.But I do hope that different people can pick a question or comment on other aspects of this subject.Thanks for all the replys in advance!

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:26 AM

Blind Will, are you in North America? (It might help those answering your questions to know what your background of understanding might be.)

Here are a few comments:

1. What are some examples of traditional English music?
Hitting the big names-- As recorded in the past: Sam Larner, Walter Pardon, Bob Hart, Harry Cox are all classic names. Currently performing doing primarily traditional English music are Waterson:Carthy, (and its components, Eliza Carthy, Martin Carthy, and Norma Waterson, individually and with others) Spiers & Boden, Alistair Anderson, John Kirkpatrick among others.

2. The classic example of folk rock based in English trad (at its peak in the 70s) is Steeleye Span. I don't know if there's a modern equivalent involving songs. There are some bands that specialize in dance tunes that push the envelope, such as Whapweasel, but I don't follow that as closely. (And some debate how English their music is: see this thread. ;-)

#3 & 4 -- I'm afraid that my difficulty with responding to this (other than knowing that there are others here who can speak more knowledgeably on the topic!) is that the term "celtic" is such a lumping term, meaning, it lumps together Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and often more, including Breton and other music. My personal opinion is that there's as much difference among those musical cultures as there is between any of them and English music.

And on #4, it's clear that lots of songs and tunes have wandered north and south and back and forth around the isles. I don't have a prime example on the tip of my tongue (tips of my fingers, in this case??) this very moment, but I have no doubt of it.

As a US fan of English trad, the underdog trad -- woo-hoo! -- I'm happy to have you make the inquiries, since it sounds like you're a newbie to the topic. Do some listening and have a good time at it!



~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 09:24 AM

I think the question is essentially a bit meaningless. For example, your staement that Celtic music is instantly recognisable as such only refers to a very recently created modern sound(eg Pogues, Enya, Chieftains) which is basically an Irish/Scottish modern sound, heavily influenced by the bRitish folk revival of the 60's (which, in your terms, would be Celtic and Anglo-Saxon since).
   Now, what I am saying is, I dont think you would find actual Celtic traditional music so instantly recognisable. If you find the oldest possible traditional recordings of music from say Ireland, scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Britenny and Galicia, and have a listen. you would not find this common "Celtic spund" so easy to spot. You might find a blindfold test quite difficult to pass, if a bit of music was thrown in to fool you from places not cenventionally thought of as "Celtic".
   And anyway, it is just plain bad history to refer to the inhabitants of Ireeland and Scotland as "Celtic", and the inhabitants of England as "Anglo-Saxon".
    So personally, I wouldnt like to dig into to any argument on the"Celtic sound" in music, as in the last analysis I dont think there's really any such thing.
    But the differences, and similarities, of music in the various regions of the British Isles(and northwestern Europe in general) is a topic I'd happily get into.
    As regrads the sounds of English music, there is a considerable variety from region to region(or was). As in Ireland, some of these regional differences are being smeared out fast by the structure of the folk scene, population movement etc.
To start with what I know about: my own band's new CD "A Trip to the Lakes" by the Boat Band, is devoted to NW English musicwhich borders on Scotland and Ireland(via the Iriah Sea). A quick look on google will find tracks you can download (some for free)to get a flavour. You can also find, on the internet, my aricle about William irwin, the Cumbrian fiddler, which I hope you find interesting as background.
   And William Irwin provides a fine example of why I find the initial Celtic/Anglo-Saxon structure of your approach so unproductive and confusing. William Irwin was an English fiddler, so in the "Anglo-Saxon" camp in your theoretical world. But Cumbria, the part of England where he lived, means "Land of the Welsh" or "Land of the Celts". And his surname, Irwin, might suggest a possible Scottish family connection. But the majority of placenames where he lived were Scandinavian (predominantly Norwegian). Reality is often much more complicated, and much more interesting, than simplified modern theories.
   Have a listen to a couple of tracks, and tell me. Do they sound "Celtic"? or "Anglo-Saxon"? Or something else? And if so, what?
Thanks for raising a very interesting topic.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM

Blind Will: are you named for Johnson, Walker or Purvis? Or someone else?

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 11:18 AM

You mean instantly recognisable Celtic music like the Pogues classic "Dirty Old Town"? Written by Ewan MacColl from Salford, England? Or instantly recognisable Celtic music like "Silent Night" (German) on the "Celtic Christmas" album I have? Or maybe like the many Ralph McTell songs included in the books of Celtic Balads you see?

Need I go on?

We could make similar comparisons with American and Celtic and/or English music. Little Musgrave / Matty Groves etc. but what is the point. Who can 'lay claim' to any style or genre of music. It's all the same. Some we like, some we don't. Aside from a futile excercise it is also divisive - It hasn't happened yet but it won't be long before some pratt comes on to say how good Celtic music is compared to English crap or vice-versca.

I guess you are talking about Irish or Scottish music as Celtic as well. What about Welsh? Or Cornish? Or Breton?

Sorry but it is all much to complex for any sensible answers. Just relax and enjoy it is my recommendation:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From:
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 11:33 AM

I agree. "Instantly recognizable" is a misnomer as the people above have related. The scales and such that you mention in the original message can be found to be different in Scottish and probably Irish Gaelic songs which are known to be from earlier than the 18th century. Pentatonic scales and other scales of that sort were common in Gaelic songs and tunes.

If you break down "Celtic" into Gaelic and non-Gaelic, you might have something "recognizable" or close to it. At least there, you would probably only be dealing with Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Man, and parts of Galacia, all of which are known to be "Celtic" countries.

Perhaps!

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From:
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 11:34 AM

Just as a thought, are we contributing to a college paper, Will?

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Red
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 11:57 AM

Big generalisation I know, but here goes.

Scottish and Irish music has balls, oomf and yeehah. English music is twiddley dee and morris prancing.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:15 PM

You mean English is grey twoddle?

Irish is bright and gay?

McColl English when you fancy, Scotch when not.

Celtic = Pure of race and heart
English = bastardised mixture, evil heart.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: jonm
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:21 PM

If you were to go back 500 years or so, I don't think there would be much to distinguish the origin of most British Isles (or Northern Eurpoean) music apart from the language of the lyrics. Certain instruments give regional clues, too, although thses would occur later on.

Since then, the English set about empire building and much value was placed on having travelled and seen the world, so a lot of foreign music and cultural references were added to the popular canon. Meanwhile, the Irish and the Scots continued to be persecuted by the English and invested much more of their national identity into their music, which has, as a consequence, remained much less altered over the intervening period. The vestiges of English music remained mostly in martial music and, as John Kirkpatrick says, you can recognise English tunes because you can march to them.

The modern Celtic sound is a generalisation based on instrumentation and ornamentation style which needs care if you then refer to all the tunes as Celtic. There are a number of tunes of English origin recorded by Celtic groups which have been "Celticised" and you wouldn't know their true origin. Those would be the ones with balls and oomph, Red.

English traditional music has been withering on the vine since we stopped valuing our cultural heritage as a nation. When you compare Morris with the vapid and uninteresting circle dances which are revered in many European countries as their traditions, we should be proud to have something with some vigour and violence in our culture, apart of course from football hooliganism.

I suppose the English left their country to conquer and bring back other cultures, the Scots and Irish left to escape poverty and took their culture with them. Certainly, the Irish tradition is far stronger abroad than in its home country, where Nashville holds sway almost everywhere.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Lester
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM

Guest DB
Another fine, considered, inteligent contribution, just like your addition to the "english concetrina and irish music" thread. :-(

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM

All a bit daft if you ask me.

the guy asks about English music and you tell him about english Song.

the fact is if there was an English music - it was aprobably Celtic in origin. By the time anybody started looking it was certainly fragmentary. the Lincolnshire bagpipes that were still around up the 19th century point to that. And some people claim they can hear modal inflections in the recordings of songs by Joseph Taylor - also of Linconshire.

The Watersons and Carthy are an imaginative attempt by nice eductaed middle class folk revivalists at recreating an English style - but they are about as valid as grammar school boys like Paul Weller singing punk music wiv cockney accents, and much less influential.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

The overwhelming influence on English music for over a hundred and thirty years have been American performers with their attractive and eclectic style.

In England the consciously educated middle classes try to come up with a formula that predates the American invasion. Some of us feel uncomfortable with a style of music that rejects and alienates the music sensibilities of our parents and grandparents and great grandparents.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM

i'm english and prefere east european folk music and klezmer..

beautiful haunting melodies..

always affects depths of my emotions in ways brit & celtic folk
just fails to reach..


but on t'other hand..


1970's anglo folk rock with loud electric guitars and drums..

is *%$*in' exciting and almost unbeatable !!!

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 05:00 PM

Probably the one kind of 'English music' that is nearest to what you call 'Celtic Music' is Northumbrian music. The people of the North-East of England didn't throw their music away in the same way as many of the other parts of the country. You could start with than fine piper, fiddler and composer Kathryn Tickell.

weelittledrummer thinks that English music was imported from Ireland and Scotland - there's no evidence for this, more of a shared culture that the English disregard more than did their neighbours. But then he thinks the Watersons are middle-class! Check out their (non-middleclass) work as Waterson:Carthy and particularly the work of Eliza Carthy who has done more than most to re-introduce English instrumental music. And its not twiddley-dee and morris prancing as GUEST,Red thinks (I always value an opinion based on widespread knowledge and pure science). Jigs have been around England Ireland and Scotland for a long time, and it would not be possible to say who got them first.

John Kirkpatrick has been a strong supporter of English music for many years - check out the many things he's been involved in. And if he can march to anything he plays he's even cleverer than I thought he was and I'm going to count his legs again next time I see him.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 05:24 PM

Which part of our country didn't the celts ivade? why would it be anything else? And I don't think they came from Ireland and scotland. they probably came here first before they went there - who knows? and frankly who bloody cares. There is celtic influence in half teh place names of england and in a lot of the church architecture.

And yes I do think the waterson/carthy approach is based loosely on the atavistic drive deep within the breast of all nice Englishmen to say I am a librarian/ teacher/social worker/etc and I want to meet others of my type rather bay City Rollers fans.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: treewind
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM

There's also a lot of Anglo Saxon, French and other European influence on place names and architecture. But to call that Celtic (even though the Celts may have come from Europe many centuries back) isn't useful to someone who's trying to distinguish modern "Celtic" music (much of which is as artificial as the Waterson/Carthy stuff you keep on about, by the way) from "English" folk music.

What about the rigid stylised requirements of the Welsh eisteddfodau? or the equally rigorous formalities and rules of the Royal Scottish Country Dancing Society? Is that celtic? it certainly isn't English. Does it count? who gets to choose? It's dangerous to generalise.

Anahata

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:53 PM

Where I live, in Middlesbrough, the place names are Scandanavian in Origin. This is true down much of Eastern England.

Elswhere in England place names are Anglo Saxon in origin. There are in fact very few place names in England which are Celtic in origin. The main one are river names and a few prominent landscape features.

I believe that the British Isles has a shared heritage of traditional music with local variations. Tunes, both song and dance, have found their way all over both the UK and Ireland so that it is difficult to say where many of them originated. They way the tunes are played varies from place to place, however.

An interesting example I came across last week when a tune I learnt a few years ago as a morris dance tune turned up as the tune to a Scottish song which I learnt at Folkworks summer school recently.

I think the term "Celtic Music" smacks of marketing dept. speak and as such is meaningless. Add to that it is all too often used, incorrectly in many cases, as a synonym for "Irish Music". I once saw a review of a Kathryn Tickell CD refer to her music as "Celtic music" which it most definitely is not. That was the point when I fully realised what a meaningless term "celtic music" was.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Murray on Salt Spring
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 12:43 AM

'Celtic' will include some Scottish music, e.g., but the purist will add "from the Celtic areas", i.e. Gaelic-speaking. Originally, that is. The rest is from the Lowlands, which (speech-wise) is on the same continuum as Northumbrian, shall we say. As said above, the music of the North of England is on a par with "Celtic", and is actually a very good example to pick. Your Southern music, from the home counties, Zummerzet etc., may be typified by morris stuff, which may be wimpy compared to loud pseudoAmerican rock, but is for me typical English [non-Celtic] music. If Celtic is what Enya et al. sing, then English is what Maddy Prior sings.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: blind will
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 01:00 AM

Thanks for all your answers, opinions and suggestions.

Let me first begin with Becky's comments...

**Blind Will, are you in North America? (It might help those answering your questions to know what your background of understanding might be).**

Yes, I'm Canadian.But the racial roots of my ancesters are a mix of English,Scottish,Irish,Norwegian,German and maybe some dutch.Musically I'm admitadely more from a rock and modern background than folk (which can easily make me feel like an outsider or odball misfit on mudcat).

Presently the Celtic or Celtic flavoured material of my own music selection is mostly limited to Enya, Loreena McKennitt and Kemper Crabb, along with a bit from others such as The Revolutionary Army Of The Infant Jesus.(The last group is a group from England that is one of my favourites, who sometimes display a Celtic tinge).But I have also listened to other Celtic related sounds from either the radio or internet, including Gaelic Psalm singing and tunes that are said to be Celtic music from Spain and Scandanavia (including songs that are suppost to be traditional or reflecting a medieval type sound).I'm hoping to add some Gaelic Psalm singing to my selection, since I enjoy it's ethereal and middle eastern like qualitys.

I listened to your examples of traditional English music.The first four singers you mentioned were obviously unaccompanied solo singers (reflective of the ballad tradition).What I heard didn't sound particularily Celtic sounding to me, though I could hear something of a slightly Celtic quality at times.They have more of a raw way of singing.(It would be interesting to hear some classic unaccompanied solo singers of the Irish and Scottish tradition for a comparison).What I heard from the Waterson Carthy group often has more of what I recognise as that Celtic sound or influence, but not in a full blown way.They also varied in style.For instance their track "Let the Belgine Run" has a lead vocal sound that is very much like the traditional English ballad singer, while it's Celticish vocal harmonies remind me a bit of sacred harp singing (but more polished and probably influenced by popular music to a certain extent).Others like "Captain Kidd" or "Bright Phoebus" clearly draw upon "urban folk" and American influence.Thanks for helping to give me a better idea of this music.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: blind will
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 01:15 AM

It's getting late but I'll try to add a couple more comments.

Greg Stephen's asked:

**Blind Will:are you named for Johnson,Walker or Purvis? Or someone else?**

I'm named after Blind Willie Johnson, but in real life I go by the first name of Will (a shortened version of my official birth name that I don't like).I'll get to some of your other comments later.

George Seto:

**Just a thought, are we contributig to a college paper, Will?**

No, I only went up to grade 12.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:29 AM

I'm sure Martin and Norma would be very pleased to hear that they do Celtic harmonies and draw on the American urban influence;-)

Celtic music has balls while English music is twidlle dee morris dancing? Hmmm. Firstly - I told you it would happen. Secondly the comment obviously comes from someone who has never heard Steeleye Span or seen the Witchmen.

Out of interest did you know that 'raddle drum', Ie drum made from a hide stretched over an agricultural sieve, is in evidence in English music far earlier than the Bodhran in Irish music? As usual we have kept the good bits and let the Irish have our cast offs:-)

If you want to hear more English music have a listen to the Albion Band, Brass Monkey and John Kirkpatrick as well as those mentioned before.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Marje
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:11 AM

Will, someone commented on the fact that you'd asked about music but got replies about song; this is probably because your original post mentioned the Copper family, who are purely vocal, so I'm referring to both music and song in this reply.

I think you need to get away from identifying music you listen to as sounding "celtic" or "non-celtic" or "celticish". There may be a sound you're looking out for but it's really not got much to do with the Celts, who ceased to be an identifiable race and culture many centuries ago. "Celtic music" is a marketing term, applied mostly to the modern style of Irish folk music (featuring vocals accompanied by bands, octave mandolas, etc).

Here are a few (very generalised) observations for you to think about:

Vocal harmonies are much more a feature of traditional English song than of Irish or Scots song. Traditional Irish song relies more on ornamentation. Irish music has its own distinctive sound; Scottish music has (to my ear) as much in common with English as with Irish. Highland Scots are (if you want to be racist about it) the celtic part of Scotland, and the music there is different from the mainstream, lowland Scottish music. English music, too, varies very much across the different parts of the country. Anglo-Saxon isn't necessarily the dominant feature - the Normans and the Vikings/Scandinavians have had a fair bit of input into English culture in some areas. And of course there is lots of overlap between English/Irish/Scots/Welsh music and song.

Just forget the misleading and unhelpful "celtic" label and try listening to a wide range of music from these islands, both the older traditional stuff and the more modern "revival" music and song. Although we're a very mixed race now, you'll soon begin to identify distinct regional or national differences in the sounds you hear, and I'm sure you'll find much to enjoy.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Stu
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 09:00 AM

Excellent post Marje.

I agree with the poster above who said the musical culture of these Islands is a shared one. None of the traditions anywhere in the Isles developed in isolation, and it's this diversity that is our strength (I'm sure some of the more cynical would disagree with that comment), if only we could all play to it - pun intended. A look at many folk CD's who-plays-what will show how great the crossover is between the four countries.

But to go with modern national boundaries, for English music try listening to Bellowhead and any Spiers and Boden, Kathryn Tickell etc for some fine rollicking music.

Folk -nfluenced rock groups who have taken some inspiration from traditional English music include Led Zepplien, Jethro Tull, The Levellers and Chumbawumba.

"English music is twiddley dee and morris prancing. Obviously.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 09:07 AM

I defy anyone to show more exciting harmony than the sadly missed Young Tradition.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,vielleuse
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 10:58 AM

"I think the term "Celtic Music" smacks of marketing dept. speak and as such is meaningless."

Absolutely. I recently saw an American webpage which referred to Blowzabella as celtic music, which is ridiculous. It strikes me as being a marketing ploy aimed at Americans of Irish and Scottish ancestry.

I play hurdy-gurdy and often get asked "Is it celtic?" to which I reply firmly "no". I think because Irish folk music never died out and continues to flourish in England often more strongly than English folk music, non-folkies are often not really aware of any other folk tradition than the Irish one, and are unaware that drone-based music is common all over Europe and far beyond. They hear a drone and think "celtic".

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: JohnB
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 12:26 PM

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mlcr/mlcr01.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/home/thefaery5/
I only briefly scanned the above sites, but what do these "celts" have to do with the "diddley diddley" played way too fast music that gets called celtic today. What happened to the melody of the tunes?
I find I can still hear the melody in so called "english" music, as in general it is played at a speed you can still hear the tune and not just the twiddley ornamentation.
JohnB

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

What's your evidence that Sacred Harp style was imported by the English to the US.? My understanding is that Sacred Harp in the US started with William Billings, Daniel Read etc. in the 18th century, and many others in the 19th century. There is certainly a link with West Gallery--but the chronology appears to be such that there was cross-pollination--very hard to say who 'imported" what in what direction. William Billings, Daniel Read, etc did their work in the US--even partly before its formation. Billings' Chester--written during the Revolution--was in the running to be the national anthem--though it's quite likely that the line "New England's God forever reigns" did not help its chances.

It's certainly true that in the Sacred Harp book there are many tunes and lyrics from Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley etc. But the fasola style at least in its Sacred Harp pentatonic approach, as far as I know, originated in the US--it was in fact the first means of teaching music here--and many "singing schools" did just that---before the traditional (European) means of reading music triumphed.

Do you have evidence that pentatonic fasola singing in England predated the American Revolution?

I don't claim to be the ultimate authority--and I'd be genuinely interested if you have evidence of this.

In fact I would actually say that the rough--and pentatonic--style of Sacred Harp is more "Celtic" than English-- and there are lots of 4ths and open 5ths. And I'm saying that as a confirmed Anglophile.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Blowzabella
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM

Now see what you started, Blind Will.....

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: blind will
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 08:14 PM

**Now see what you started, Blind Will.....

Yes, apparently I brought up one of those "divisive" hot button topics.But I think it's primarily just a sensitive subject in Britian.For me it's just a topic I find interesting and wanted to know more about.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM

The Sacred Harp style derives from one common to the whole of Britain until the 18th century. It subsequently got stamped out by tidy-minded church reformers everywhere except the Outer Hebrides, but by the time that happened, enough English and Scottish settlers had taken it to the US to keep it viable there.

Pentatonism is no mark of anything. The oldest documented Scottish and Irish music is very firmly heptatonic, and pentatonic modes are found all over the world. If anything pentatonism is often a recent innovation in Scotland and Ireland rather than a relic of anything ancient. One place this comes up is in tunes to be played in medleys, as with dances and marches. Tune-medley dances and military pipe marches are both a 19th century innovation. For both, you need to vary the tonality to keep things interesting, and switching between different gapped-scale modes is an effective way to do that (and on the Highland pipes, about the only effective way). So you suddenly see a whole raft of pentatonic pipe marches coming out of the British Army after 1850, and a similar boom for reels and jigs in the folk-revival era when tune medleys became the rule.

Parallel 4ths and 5ths are pretty rare in any kind of Scottish or Irish tradition, though they were once common in popular religious chants all round Christian Europe.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 09:13 PM

..and on the 8th day


God eventually woke up with a diabolical hangover..


popped a glass of alka seltzers..

shouted out at a bunch of irritating fey harp pluckin angels


then banished them to the coldest wettest most dreariest regions of the British isles..

he told 'em to fuck off and find their own snakes and apples..



thats how celtic music and cider got invented..


honest.. swear thats the truth..


its probably in the bible in an appendix somewhere in the back pages..

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 09:45 PM

Blind Will,
I think that the term "Celtic" is often misleading. "Gaelic" music on the other hand is much more defined. Since you live in Canada you are no doubt familiar with the traditional music of Cape Breton Island. While this is broadly defined as "Celtic" it can be much more accurately defined as Gaelic, and Scottish Gaelic at that. However, this playing style has largely been lost in Scotland, and replaced with more "English" styles.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: blind will
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 10:08 PM

Obie,

Yes I've heard Cape Breton music before, though I wouldn't have as much exposure to it as those living in the maritime provinces.Thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 10:25 PM

"Pentatonism is no mark of anything. The oldest documented Scottish and Irish music is very firmly heptatonic, and pentatonic modes are found all over the world. If anything pentatonism is often a recent innovation in Scotland and Ireland rather than a relic of anything ancient."

This is true of composed music, but it probably does not apply to folk melodies. Among British folk music, 5 and 6 note 'gapped' scales are much more common in northern Britain than in southern England. This probably represent more a survival of older approaches to melody than innovations borrowed from modern composers. The gapped scales and circular melodies that fascinated Cecil Sharp in the Southern Appalachians certainly cannot be traced to the innovations of modern composers. While I don't believe scales and melodies of this sort are specifically 'Celtic', they have lingered (like bagpipes and drone notes) in regions that have been labled (however accurately or inaccurately) as Celtic.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: blind will
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 11:56 PM

Ron,

**What's your evidence that Sacred Harp style was imported by the English to the US?**

This understanding I have had is based on articles and possibly some books I have read.My understanding has been that the style of Sacred Harp singing existed before the shape notation was made for it (an American innovation) and that it began initially as an American import from England (via New England).As far as I know the first American practice of Scared Harp singing began in New England and from there spread to other parts of America--such as the Scots-Irish in the Appalachian area and black Americans (each of these groups putting their own flavour and influence on the music).If indeed it did originally come from England it went through some changes and adapted to the repertoire available in America (eg. the use of American campmeeting songs).The Sacred Harp I have heard has varied in style, some of it having the clear quality of that dreaded "Celtic" word and other examples not having it.

Now it's very possible that some of the information I have received is flawed or only gives part of the story.But nethertheless hear is some evidence of this view.

Hear are some excerpts from http://www.texas-ec.org/publications/texascooppower/archive/201harp.aspx :

"...To fully understand Sacred Harp, you must understand it's history.It dates to Elizabethan England and "solimization" the singing of syllables, not words, as part of the musical learning process.Brought to North America in the 17th Century by the Pilgrims, solmization used four old English syllables (fa,sol,la and mi) to denote the tunes of the standard musical scale....In New England, church music teachers took the "fa-sol-la' system a step further.Infused with democratic spirit, they sought to breath renewed fervor into church life by holding singing schools in the tradition of the English parish singing school.But illiteracy, musical and otherwise, held them back.In 1801, two upstate New York music teachers--William Smith and William Little--came up with a new idea.A student could better visualize the tune, they reasoned, if each written note had it's own shape..."

This following article suggests that the American shape note tradition originated in part from West Gallery Music in England, but one of the big differences in the West Gallery tradition is it's use of musical instruments.(I didn't know about this last fact till tonight):

Excerpts from http://www.revelsdc.org/revelat/shape.html :

"....The American shape note tradition originated in part from West Gallery Music, a type of singing found in English parish churches and non-conformist chapels between 1750 and 1850.....Singing masters began teaching English congregations three-and four-part harmony.Few members of these congregations could read music, so musical instruments were used to support the parts.Each instrument led a group of singers gathered around it.Popular instruments for this purpose included fiddles,cellos,basoons,oboes,clarinet and flutes.In America, where strictures against bringing secular instruments such as fiddles into churches were more severe, and where finding a bassoon and someone who knew how to play it was often impossible, Yankee ingenuity saved the day with the invention of "a new type of notation", in which the positions of the notes of the scale were signalised by four shapes..."

Lastly another article suggests that the "fa,sol,la" way of singing began in England, but it doesn't say that it came to America exclusively from England.It does say that "This technique was transplanted from Great Britian to Colonial America long before any change occured in the conventional roundhead music notation." This statement can be found at:

http://www.fasola.org/introduction/note_shapes.html

Is there any examples of West Gallery music that still exist in Britian, especially ones I could hear on the net?


PS. To Greg Stephens, I still plan on enventually resonding to your other questions and comments earlier.I've just been sidetracked with other stuf in the mean time.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From:
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:31 AM

Thanks, Will. Curious as to the source of the questioning.

Where in Canada? I'm in the Maritimes that you mentioned. I'm a born-Cape Bretoner! Still live in Nova Scotia.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:17 AM

Celtic is as much a meaningful musical term as World Music.

Many people here in England who are not into folk music think that all folk music is, by definition, Irish. The Irish are Celts. Therefore all folk music is Celtic.

To my ears, the main difference I hear between Irish music and English music is in the playing styles. In the Irish music I hear in England the playing is, usually, technically very good but, to my mind, the main aim of the musicians seem to be speed and ornamentation. Whereas the English tunes generally seem to be played at slower speeds with a much more rythmic feel. I think you can dance more easily to most English tunes than you can Irish.

For some English style dance bands (English Ceilidh) look up:
The Old Swan Band
Burlsdon Village Band
Hekety
Random
Tickled Pink
Peeping Tom
The Committee Band
The Bismarcks
Mawkin
The Gloworms
Florida
All Blacked Up
Dartmoor Pixie Band
Many of these bands play tunes of Irish origin and it's interesting to compare their versions with those from the 'Celtic' versions.

My own hugely sweeping statement with too many exceptions to the rule is that "The Irish style is candy-floss as opposed to the English meat and two veg".

For Singing there are two excellent CDs from Fellside: Voices and Voices in Harmony. Another recommendation for Spiers and Boden, Bellowhead, any Carthies and Kathryn Tickell. But also: Witches of Elswick, Jane and Amanda Threllfall; Crucible.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM

I see the famous "Scots-Irish" arriving in this thread. They appear to be a mythical race that settled in the Appalachian mountains. This enabling proponents of the Celtic uber-music theory to label Appalchian music, and the people, as basically non-specific Celtic(or possibly Gaelic). These "Scots-Irish" may be be found on many websites aa the dominant cultural group in the area, with all sorts of associated theories about the music. Theories of the origin of bluegrass, oldtime, country music etc often draw heavily on these settlers. I can't help feeling, though, that the presence of so many English-type tunes and songs, and English-type place.names, suggests a more powerful non-Gaelic presence in the area than is often acknowleged.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:51 AM

Nothing mythical about Scots-Irish. Protestants from Ulster emigrated to America in large numbers in the 18th century. Here's a BBC article about them.

But I think Dazbo is ight about the sound, at least as interpreted in the last 50 years or so. English dance music? The English must dance with sacks of coal on their backs...

(runs for deep square leg)...

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:54 AM

Speed isn't everything Paul as I am am sure many ladies will tell you...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM

Just a few points:

Welsh music is quite different from Irish or Scottish. One top musician I know explains it by saying that Irish music is about unity, and Welsh about harmony. Another few emphasize that Irish is about ornamentation and Welsh is about variation. They're different, anyway, and all this is part of why I cringe at the 'Celtic' label. Even 'Gaelic'.

Re: Anahata's remark about the Eisteddfod - yeh, it has had a strangle hold but most people admit that Eisteddfod singing is all about aiming for Western Classical style excellence rather than 'folk'. It's encouraging that some of the 'folk' competitions are faltering because (IMO) the practitioners are realizing that competition isn't the be all and end all. There are lots of places where you can hear the living tradition including Plygain carol services at Christmas which brings us to ...

... Fa so la and ilk. Plygain singing has retained a much older singing style which sounds to my ear quite similar to Fa so la. I read "Sound of the Dove" some time ago and the author writes that the congregations she studied in Appalachia traced themselves back to the Welsh Baptist Churches of Delaware and ... Pennsylvania? ... in 1703 or thereabouts. (William Penn was Welsh, IIRC) I am not trying to make a case for Fa so la being 'Welsh', just trying to reinforce the points above that the style was quite broad-spread. Many English academics, working in a variety of fields, think things are 'English' because they never thought to do any research into areas where the supporting literature isn't IN English. twits.

sian

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Jess A
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:54 AM

Hey Will,

not sure where in Canada you are but Mill Race Festival in Cambridge, Ontario http://www.millracefolksociety.com/ often has English acts booked and might be a good place to witness some of this music live if it's close enough for you to get to. Unfortunately though you've missed it for this year as it takes place at the end of July.

I play & sing with English band Crucible and we've been booked there a couple of times and are hoping to return next summer.

Jess A
http://www.cruciblemusic.co.uk

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:24 AM

As Tootler & Vielliuese alluded above, the term "Celtic" has apparently been seized upon by The Recording Industry as a convenient marketing label, often applied indescriminately to anything that sounds like it might have come from somewhere in Britain and has folk-ish roots.

My personal theory is that for the American market, somebody decided that "English" or even "British" might have negative connotations (didn't we kick them out o'here a few years back?) but "Celtic" invokes assorted romantic images without the negatives and thus is a better advertising tool.

Val

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Michael Morris
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:47 AM

Greg-

No, nothing mythical about the Scots-Irish, and very little Gaelic about them either. They were not a race, either (whatever that means), but a almalgation of lowland Scots, border dwellers, northern English (with midlanders and southern English mixed in as well, though Ulster generally was not a destination of choice for southrons).   No need to rehash too much of their history in the British Isles and North America, but there is plenty of scholarship (not just magazine articles and websites) to keep any interested reader busy for some time.

A few points should be made. Briefly, Scots-Irish and other northern British populations were strongly represented in the populations that settled in the North American backcountry in seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth century. Many settled in Appalachia, others further north, and others went west to Missouri, Arkansas, Texas and beyond. Given that the core of the Scots-Irish population was Anglo-Scot, the lack of Gaelic songs and place names in Appalachia should not be surprising. As far as their influence upon the music and folkways of the upper South and Southwest, it's less important to count raw numbers than to consider where the Scots-Irish went and what they did when they got there. And for what it's worth, contemporary observers, historians, and geographers have long noted the presence of this population in the backcountry (including but certainly not limited to Appalachia)and their influence upon both regional and national culture in the United States.

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: JohnB
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM

Jess A is far too modest, she plays with Hekety as well as Crucible.
We will have you over here in Canada anytime Jess.
She is right about Millrace being a great festival too.
JohnB

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Marje
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:12 PM

Will asks for "examples of West Gallery music that still exist in Britain, especially ones I could hear on the net?"

http://www.wgma.org.uk/ (sorry I can't get the Blue Clicky thing to work) will show you that there's quite a number of active West Gallery choirs (or "quires" as they prefer to spell it) around in England today. That website may lead you to some sound-clips or examples.

Marje

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:35 PM

doesn't Jess A. also dance with Pecsaetan - probably the best women's morris side in Britain at the moment.
See them dance and you'll appreciate how good and powerful morris can be.....

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:46 PM

God!! How I hate the word 'Celtic' as applied to music. A woolly concept dreamed up by romantic nationalists and endorsed by marketing men - what a shitty mess!!!

And before anyone objects I've got nothing against the Scots, the Irish, the Welsh, the Cornish, the Manx, the Bretons, the inhabitants of the Wester Isles or Patagonians for that matter. And I've got nothing against their respective, often brilliant, traditional musics - just don't use the stupid, lazy, ignorant term 'Celtic' - that's all!!!

Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM

As a matter of interest (or not as you wish)

The term "Quire" used by the West Gallery Association very likely came from the morning service or Mattins in the book of common prayer where, at one point there was a statement "In quires and places where they sing, here follows the anthem". i.e. a chance for the choir to show off <g>

Solmisation referred to earlier is very old indeed. About 1000 years in fact. The system was devised by an Italian Monk, Guido d'Arezzo who was born around 995 CE. He used the first syllable of a hymn to St. John where each line started one note higher as an aid for teaching monks to chant the offices.

Something like this

Ut queant laxis
Resonare fibris
Mira gestorum
Famuli tuorum
Solve polluti
Labi reatum
Sante Johannes

Thus we get Ut Re Mi Fa So La

Si was added later from the initials of "Sante Johannes" (Remember in Mediaeval Latin, I and J were the same letter)

In English we have replaced "Ut" with "Do", but the French and Italians still use "Ut"

That we still use these syllables as an aid to singing is a remarkable testament to Guido's original idea.