Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 05:15 AM

Didgeridoo? Now there I'm with Duffy...

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:09 AM

I once had a pint with a guy who had for years played baritone sax in a céilí band!

The point, of course, is that the "tradition" makes up its own mind, in the long run. Some of us make it more difficult by playing/singing in ways that seem to grate at the edges of what is currently recognised as part of the tradition while others instinctively stretch the boundaries into new and rewarding musical areas.

A few years ago I was driving along the main Dublin to Galway road near Ballinasloe when I was flagged down by one of two men who were stopping all traffic. Turned out a duck was leading her family of very tiny ducklings across the road (there was a little stream with good cover on that side!). There were a good dozen ducklings and , all huddled together, they looked like one weird organism flowing across the road. Some would shoot ahead, others drop behind, some shoot off to one side etc. - but they all got across the road eventually. A "tradition" is a bit like that!

Regards

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Pied Piper
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:15 AM

There was and probably still is a Irish (as in born there) Guy here in Manchester that plays Trad tunes on a C Melody Sax, though I can't remember his name.
The Uillean Pipes Evolved from an instrument called the Pastoral Pipes invented around about 1700.
They only reached their present form in American vaudeville in the late 19th century.
None of this matters a jot; the music is always now and always ancient in that it lives, and occasionally takes us with it back to the dreamtime.
The worst thing you can do to any piece of music is, not play it.
TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:37 AM

And music is entirely subjective. Just because I like something doesn't make it good - it just makes it enjoyable to me.

What should be important is that those people who perform music should at least know a bit about it's history - not to be hide bound by it, but to be able to understand somewhat of where it's been and maybe a bit aabout where it's going.

One thing that is never good is ignorance.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: weerover
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 09:37 AM

The instrument is surely not as important as what is done with it. I may have mentioned this here before, but I am reminded of the response by Chinua Achebe when criticised for writing in English rather than one of the many languages of his native Nigeria. He pointed to the fact that African slaves and their descendants in America took Western instruments and created a new musical form, i.e. jazz.

wr.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 10:26 AM

Martin Ryan, as usual, is spot on. Would that folks with his kind of wisdom were in charge.

Depending on the times one is living in, many instruments are used to play "traditional" music. For years it was played by show bands, years before that it was played by fiddlers, or pipers. Most of the time it was solo. In fact, that is part of the problem today, trying to play the Uilleann Pipes ensemble. They were not developed to be an ensemble instrument. Tuning was important only insomuch as they were in tune relative to themselves. But having said that, there are not many out there who wouldn't appreciate what the UP's have added to many styles of music, and to the scores of countless movies.

The only two "traditional" instruments in our music that I know of are the harp and the bodhran. In both cases there is discussion about origin, but no dispute that they have the longest history in the stories of our people. But the real question is, "At what point in the history do we put up the fence that divides traditional from non traditional?". My opinion is that one of the things that is traditional in the music of my folks is that it will change, it will borrow from other cultures, and it will continue to evolve in fantastic ways. And in the stew of our music, it will always be uniquely Irish.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 04:49 PM

Me again.

I'm glad I kicked this off because I've read a lot of common sense in it. Not that I expected anything else, but it's nice to be reassured. Slightly disappointed that Mooman didn't mention that wonderful guitarist from Whitton he used to play with at the Red Cow but I guess that's old age for you.

I think our friend Duffy tells us more about himself and about Comhaltas than he tells us about music. The Comhaltas Congress is on in Dublin over the May bank holiday. As a branch secretary and a guitarist I'm tempted to pop over and table a motion asking for him to be kicked out for bringing the organisation into disrepute (you can do that apparently) but quite honestly I can't be arsed.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 05:47 PM

"The only two "traditional" instruments in our music that I know of are the harp and the bodhran. In both cases there is discussion about origin, but no dispute that they have the longest history in the stories of our people.

I think you'd find a fair bit of dispute about the bodhran, and it'll probably show up in this thread. The idea of stretching a bit of hide across a frame and hitting it is old enough - I suspect it goes back to Cro-Magnon times or before. (Maybe they picked it up from the Neanderthalers...)

In Ireland it was used on particular occasions in particular places, notably as part of the "hunting the wren" tradition. But as an instrument played together with other instruments to provide the percusssion, as I understand it, that's no more than 40 years old, and was a Sean O Riada innovation.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:08 PM

I would love to hear more on this, Kevin. To say that it is only about 40 years old as a form of accompaniment surprises me. Are you sure that it wasn't used in some earlier time, fell out of usage, and then was re-introduced by the venerated Mr. O'Riada?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:42 PM

That might be so - I'm sure one way and another people have always played frame drums, and probably re-invented them any time they felt a need to make a bit of noise. I suspect that if you hunt around you'd found pictures in mediaeval manuscripts that look like bodhrans. But I think you'd be pretty hard put to find any evidence of them being used in ensemble music before the '60s.

And from the way Duffy lumps "guitars, bodhrans and basoukis" together I'd imagine he's seeing them all the same way, as innovations from around that time.

Myself I see them as good innovations, and part of a developing tradition - as a percussion instrument when you need one, a bodhran is a great thing to have available, and far better than the snare drum which tended to be used previously.

I have a suspicion that the way the bodhran is played - which is where it differs from the way frame drums are used in, for example North Africa or (native) North America, owes a lot to the influence of the way guitarists strum their instruments.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:48 PM

Why would people have instruments lying around and NOT use them to play music with? That doesn't sound quite right. Irish music is quite rhythmic - even the old stuff, I can't imagine that people wouldn't use a drum if they had one.

Also - what about the whistle and flute? As earlier stated, they are really old instruments. Actually, they are probably the first "noted" instruments created by mandkind.

Also - violins/fiddles have been around for over 300 years - I realize the poor didn't have much access to them, but not all "folk" music is music of the poor.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM

"..Actually, they are probably the first "noted" instruments created by mankind."

NEANDERTHAL FLUTE - Oldest Musical Instrument's 4 Notes Matches 4 of Do, Re, Mi Scale at least 42,000, using the bone of a Cave Bear. (But the contemporary Bodhran has not survived...)

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:22 PM

Howevever the basic percussion is body percussion, notably clapping and stamping. That goes back to pre-human times, I imagine. After all, gorillas still go in for chest beating.

I'm sure Seamus Duffy would class that as part of the tradition, anyway.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 11:29 PM

And what about spoons and the earlier bones - they must have been part of Neanderthal skiffle groups.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Joe Mullarkey
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 04:00 PM

Sax player in Manchester is Tony Howley

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 04:32 PM

According to my favourite English-Irish dictionary, O'Neill Lane, a bodhrán is a dildurn, an agricultural implement used for winnowing grain. (In other words, you put a load of grain into it and shake it up and down in a wind, and the chaff blows away, while the heavier grain drops back into the bowl of the dildurn.)

As I understand it, Seán Ó Riada revived the use of the bodhran, traditionally used as an ad hoc drum in the southwest of Ireland, and brought it into the music he performed and wrote.

As for the guitar, it was a Spanish instrument when I was a sprog, and then became popular in folk music of all nationalities. That's how music changes and grows.

Dunno about the uileán pipes; I'd distrust all authorities who claim it's not an ancient instrument - it seems such a likely invention for any shepherd with a shepherd's pipe, the belly of a sheep and an hour or two to kill!

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: mooman
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 05:48 PM

OK, OK mea maxima culpa....

Our man Duffy has clearly not heard Arty McGlynn, Chris Newman, Tony McManus, Ed BoydChis B****d (Born Again Scouser) (who owes me a pint of Ordinary by the way), John Joe Kelly and others...

Apologies for any offence inadvertantly caused!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 06:59 PM

Humph - this thread just evaporated off the screen - playing SB's.

well I just found that I have been using something with a name to clean the chaff from the bird seed ( my family have kept psittacine birds since before I was born).

The basic concept is to collect the scattered seed from the shelves and pots, putting it into a bowl, then take a large wide bowl, put it on the ground and pour the seed into it letting the chaff blow away.

On the subject of playing music -

Whatever instrument is being played in whatever company basically it should not sound like something being tortured or that you have stumbled on an all night session about dawn.

If it is something people will remember with good feelings then it is OK by me (this is not at all the same thing as listening to a recording two weeks later when the atmosphere/alcohol has worn off)

Anne

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Pied Piper
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:13 AM

Thanks for that Joe, is Tony still playing?
TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 06:13 AM

I just got this from Joe Mullarkey (Ta, Joe!). It was written by
Brian Prior, Comhaltas Projects Officer.


Traditional Music Instruments – The Comhaltas Position

The debate about what is and what's not an authentic traditional music instrument is once again in full spate. By the nature of traditional music it's neither possible, nor would it be desirable, for anyone or any organisation to legislate on a matter such as this.

Comhaltas would not normally engage in this type of debate were it not for the fact that the movement is being misrepresented in some of the recent discussion on the merits or otherwise of guitars and bodhráns – the innuendo being that these instruments are not considered to be part of the tradition.

One of the Comhaltas Aims and Objectives is "to promote Irish Traditional Music in all its forms" and this is reflected in its vast programme of musical activities. Hundreds of music classes are held each week by the 400 branches of Comhaltas throughout Ireland and around the world covering all instruments such as uilleann pipes, harp, fiddle, flute, whistle, accordion, concertina, banjo and also including the guitar and bodhrán. Equally there are bodhrán competitions at all Fleadhanna Cheoil and the guitar is included, along with piano, harp and bouzouki in the accompaniment competition.

As can be seen from the recent debate, many traditionalists have their own personal strongly held views on what constitutes an authentic traditional instrument. However, it's very important that where these views are expressed by a Comhaltas member that they're not misconstrued as policy for the movement as a whole. Hopefully this statement will clarify the position and we can all get back to playing the music which it's surely what it's all about!!

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Scott Mckeon
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 02:14 PM

what a plonker this man is
and i would agree saying he is talking out of his arse
bodrhans and guitars are essential in sessions and irish music in general
they are the beat keepers, and they are needed badly alot of the time
looking into it the only instruments that are traditional to irish music are the harp and the ulean pipes
kinda restricted on different sounds with two instruments
this man wants to become more open minded and just shut his mout now and again.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 05:18 PM

"bodrhans and guitars are essential in sessions and irish music in general"

Not true. It's perfectly possible to have great sessions, and great Irish music, without either a bodhtran or a guitar in sight. And of course it's possible to have great music with them.   

But saying they "are essential" is just as much an oversimplification as saying they don't belong. The music is wider than either of those limitations.

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: TS
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 06:41 PM

Maybe Mr.Duffy should fwd this little essay off to the Chieftains and Danu and some of the other top bodhran players of our time and see what they have to say. Then again, a tipper up his arse couldnt hurt matters any, either.....Slainte!

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: GUEST,7x3
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM

"Hi Blackcatter:
This is not from research but from memory. The Uilleann pipes began to evolve into the present state about 300 years ago, becoming the modern instrument in the 18th century. Bellows pumped pipes are common in France and Scotland, the Uilleann pipes being unique by way of the regulators, or keyed pipes for harmony. The bodhran - as a frame drum, is common to most cultures and was made of old grain sieves for years, but in the 1930s I believe it began to be used in Irish Ceili bands."\



Jazus - you cant be serious! The noise them Scotsmen make with the Warpipes is bad enough, pulease don't say they can play the Uilleann as well!

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: Ernest
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:13 AM

ReelBrew:
"A tipper up his arse couldn`t hurt matters any, either"?

Are you going to use that tipper afterwards?

Regar(d)se
Ernest

Subject: RE: Guitars, Bodhrans and Irish Music
From: TS
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:28 PM

Ernest:

Nah..I'll hold off..wouldnt waste a good one...I'll use a "shitty" tipper..no pun intended!.....Slainte!