Can you help with this session?

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 07:42 PM

...that is certainly clear enough Shambles. I appreciate the expression and analysis and have a lot of sympathy for the 'accomidations' you request....and yes, I suspect catspaw can contemplate and respond to the issues himself if he cares to.

We sure are diverse bunch, aren't we?

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 08:21 PM

Whether Shambles is being allegorical or not, my answer stays the same.

I go to sessions to have a good time. I don't get into fights because I can't be bothered with them. I'm usually too busy playing music, listening to music, laughing at jokes/stories or learning about who people are.

I don't take sides, and I won't vote shambles or catspaw when the election comes, because, as much as shambles ego would have us believe that we are blindly being driven, like sheep, by his and catspaws guiding influence, I am in fact an irrepressible individual.

Now will you please sit down or else go and order a pint, because it has come to my attention that I haven't laughed in almost 3 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!

(And while you're at it, ask the band why they've stopped playing ... oh, they didn't? ... well, it can't have been very important then.)

Somebody take the lead please.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 08:43 PM

Shambles, I am glad you finally said it. For whatever that's worth, at least you brought out your opinions in a straightforward fashion. I admit to having problems understanding you a lot of the time, either because I don't see your point or I can't find it. That's not an insult......I just have a difficult time with your style sometimes.

As to your points........Well, its fair to say we pretty much disagree. You have suggested this before in PM's and I will say again, that to believe I am somehow the "Leader of the Pack" is to give me credit (or discredit) for more than I am capable of doing. There are far too many intelligent, erudite, and strong willed individuals around here for me to have that kind of influence. To think so would be to have a low opinion of an awful lot of people. I don't think I seak for anyone but myself, but I do sometimes speak for those who have made the same point before as I did above.

A god.....C'mon now. I am as fallible as the next person and I've recanted on postings TODAY! Again, I disagree and I can't believe anyone here tinks that for the same reason as above. As to my opinion of myself, its true that I am aggressive at times, sarcastic, egotistical, opinionated, and a lot of other unpleasant things. Those things are also a part of my 3-D personality. Much of my professional life was spent in a field where I HAD to be memorable. I didn't require love or hate......just that they remembered me. So if I'm grating to you, I understand, but it is the real thing for better of for worse. That's not to say that I also don't have a few redeeming qualities, but the mixture is there.

Your bold points.......Again, we disagree. I do use PM's and e-mail and the 'Cat does have a chat atmosphere and I did not create it. It was here when I came. I do respect the views. Two years ago, I would occasionally make a joke or something in a serious thread or a music thread, but several people pointed this out to me and I stopped. When I involve myself in music discussions, I am on topic and try never to let some obvious "one-liner" rear its head. On the very few occasions that has happened since, I profusely apologized in advance. I will completely stop even those few instances as of this moment. But as far as recognizing the statement and not the person, I do and to think I don't is flatly crap. Its inevitable to some degree not to take the person into account as you have gotten to know something of them, but I have NEVER used any such thing and certainly not to exclude anyone.

And yes, I take you into account also. There is no "Gang of 12" here......Its a gang of 1200 and you are as included as you want to be. You don't want to play, don't play. You want to play over here with this toy? Great. You want to play over there with that toy? Great! How do I stop you from doing this?

We've hashed out the "Complimentary Post" issue on several occasions and I still don't see what it hurts to tell someone I like what they wrote, and to do it in the threads. Its not a seal of approval or anything that silly, just an honest admission on my part that they have said/done/thought something worthwhile. I don't see what is wrong with that.

As to the rest......Let's face it, we have two different views of the 'Cat and they share some similarities and there are some differences. I am NOT trying in any way to exclude you and I'd like to believe you aren't excluding me. I also disagree that I get involved in a lot of name calling, but in this case, I will.......but hopefully in a humorous light.

I ahve no idea whether or not we'd get along in 3-D. We might have some interesting things in common and we might have absolutely nothing. But the one thing I do have is respect for you as a person or I wouldn't bother writing this. The one thing I am sure you have is respect for people. At the moment though, you probably view me as an overbearing, obnoxious, manipulative, smart-ass and I view you as an anal retentive stick in the mud. So what? I recognize you as an individual, so am I. We are both a part of this place and neither your vision nor my lack of it is strong enough to alter the group dynamics here. I can't believe either of us has that power.

I know this will trigger another missive from you, but so be it. I may or may not respond to it. These are not new "issues" and I have answered in a straightforward manner. We disagree. So what? This isn't one of those cowboy flicks where some guy says "This place ain't big enough for the both of us." It is, but the choice is yours and mine to stay.

I'll remember to take your thoughts into account and temper my postings at times, but I doubt I will ever satisfy you totally. We just don't see the world the same way I guess.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Sean Belt
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 10:38 PM

Shambles,

I agree with you that music is what probably drew most of the people who frequent Mudcat here in the first place. And folk music is the overwhelmingly most important pursuit in my life. However, there are other aspects to that life, and if I and other people who feel similarly want to use these electronic premises to express other aspects of my/our/their life, who's to say I/we/they shouldn't? Would you deny yourself the pleasure of, say Rick Fielding's insight into Christianity's influence on folk music because he posts the occasional attaboy for someone's accomplishments?

And even if I did agree with you (at least I think this is what you're looking for) that we should, as much as possible, limit ourselves to discussions of music, who's going to be the arbiter of what is appropriate and what isn't? I found the Music In Your Town thread had some pretty good discussion of music and it's relation to environment. But I'm not sure it would fit anyone else's view of a music thread.

And please be sure that when I use "we" or "ourselves" I'm not referring to any subset of the posters here, but to "we" as in all of those with whom I join in enjoying the Mudcat.

I don't know. Maybe I'm particularly dense, but I just don't have a good grasp on where your ferver for this subject comes from. I'm going to make the assumption that it stems from a desire to see the Mudcat be the best it can. But, I'm also reading some real intolerance that I find disheartening coming from someone who in other instances has so much good to say. Nonetheless...

Best regards,
- Sean

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 10:54 PM

if music is all that really matters to Mudcatters - why did we waste so much time on this thread?

I'm done, back to Shenendoah - I always loved that song!

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:35 AM

Great post, Jed. Shambles, with regard to your smart ass comment above, you should learn that skill. Say no more than necessary, let it stand on its merits, and if you get a lot of negative reaction, or no reaction at all, then so be it. I have said before that this place is better with you than without you. But you belabor your position to a point of distraction. I feel no need to defend Catspaw, he is capable of doing that perfectly well if he feels the need. But your focus on one individual, instead of recognizing that the Mudcat is different things to different people puts you square in the group you complain about. Please, continue to contribute in the way you feel you should. Those for whom that has value will engage with you and enjoy doing so as I have at various times. And those areas that you don't like, please don't go in. It is OK, and it is not exclusionary when you choose not to go there. But as long as I started this with a snippy reply, let me end it the same way. Spare me your little jabs and veiled references. You and I don't need to start tangling again. I very rarely fail to read your posts, and I greatly enjoy your poetry. But the snide comments about me and others you don't approve of are not necessary. I will now go and await GUEST to accuse me of being a bully for responding to the provocation.

Mick

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Callie
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:02 AM

Fionn: I said nothing about banning imagery. My comments about music have been twisted into some analogy for Mudcat, for what has now manifested as a personal attack on one person. i wonder why Shambles doesn't practice what he preaches and send Spaw a personal message. I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 04:33 AM

oh dear!

it's all gone pear shaped...

Ella

Hmmmm now, what were we talking about to begin with?

phew!

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: GUEST,John D.
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:20 AM

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Dani
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 09:13 AM

YEESH!

If anyone's even noticed I'm gone, what with all the brawling and philosophising, they'll find me alone at a back table in the bar DOWN THE STREET, humming a tune. This is all too much for me.

Come on down and pull up a chair!

Dani

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 03:30 PM

I performed at an open mike night in Jackson WY this summer. Some nights people would be quiet and listen to the music, some nights they made alot of noise at the bar. If I wanted to hear the music, I just had to move closer to the musicians. I got up to do my 3 song set one night, did two ballads, and the noise got louder & louder, so I launched into a raunchy version of "Drunken Sailor". It didn't make anyone quiet down, but I felt better.

There's music in every part of life, and when I look for that, I feel better. There also seem to be drunks in most parts of my life, and when I focus on them, I feel worse. I'll keep looking for better places to find music.

Mimosa

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Bert
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 04:35 PM

Well don't feel bad, anyone who missed the allegory.

Mudcat is nothing whatsoever like a session.

To put it in computer terms a session is 'an interactive multitasking environment'. And Mudcat is 'a buffer' (the classical computer definition of a buffer is.. a device for decoupling asynchronous processes).

They are in no way alike. In a session one HAS to listen to the loudest noise and one should not contribute anything that is out of place (or time). At Mudcat one can ignore anything that displeases them, and contribute anything they so desire.

And anyone who says that Catspaw never made a mistake should ask him about a certain courting dulcimer. (gotcha Spaw)

Bert.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 06:15 PM

Callie, you seemed to be objecting to someone putting a message across in allegoric form. Perhaps I over-generalised a bit in describing that objection as an objection to imagery.

Some pretty strong messages have been put across in allegory over the years. As a bit of an earth-muffin, I thought that Gulliver challenging the ingenuity of the Lilliputians with his bowel movements was pleasingly effective. The threat of pollution was a serious concern, even in those days.

And just to be clear, I'm agreeing with Shambles only to the extent that I agree with Joe. It's OK, in fact good advice, to say ignore what you don't like. But perhaps we should all be a bit concerned if the music threads get lost among the rest on any day's list, and we've been a bit close to that a few times lately. We should be concerned, because newcomers and passersby will not necessarily see how to pick their way through the chaff to get to the wheat, and simply go away.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Callie
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 08:13 PM

Fionn: perhaps I'm not writing clearly.

Allegory = good

So long as you don't use it to manipulate other people into supporting a personal dislike you have of someone - and all this in a public forum.

This is a non-music thread in the guise of a music thread.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: GUEST,Paddy(1)
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 08:46 PM

Catspaw49 (or do your friends call you spaw?) and Shambles - - - - lighten up.

Nobody takes you seriously except yourselves.

Oh dear, now I am speaking for everyone and one can't do that.

I apologise in advance for this post, I should have hit the 'Clear Entries' button.

Congrats to Bernard for killing the thread.

Paddy(1)

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:43 PM

How do y'all manage to type such long submissions without having your browser announce that you have been on too long with "no activity", then disconnecting you and losing your work?

Is there a place to change the time permitted for mere typing?

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:13 AM

I have been thinking this over, and I've decided I don't believe that Shambles first message was allegorical. I think s'he submitted it, and when s/he found herself in the midst of a cyber-who's afraid-of-Virginia-Woolf decided just to enjoy the fracas.

Shambles, get out of that pub!

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 08:37 AM

Oh my gawd! Now we have to worry about whether we're clever enough to pick up on the allegories. How this place feeds my paranoia. (belch) Still - everyone seems to have a valid point of view & turns out to be thoroughly decent people. So that's OK after all. Makes my head spin sometimes. Kris

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 09:05 AM

Bert, if the Mudcat is a buffer does make those of us old enough to remember...(well, you know)Old Buffers?
RtS (Old Fogey)

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 11:22 AM

Yep, RtS, that's us.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 07:33 AM

Some pretty important things have been said in parables, so don't knock them.

Maybe it's cultural or because I've met Shambles, but it never occurred to me reading this that it was other than a parable about the Mudcat. I thouight, that's a good way of helping us see this situation from a different viewpoint.

Maybe there is a real session Shambles is talking about as well. It sounds quite a familiar situation.

Maybe there was a real boat called the Mary Ellen Carter. But the reason that's such a powerful song doesn't depend on that, it's about how the story relates to the way we deal with the setbacks in our own lives.

I suppose I can imagine someone saying "That song's no good - there never was such a boat..." But they'd be missing the point. However I don't think people who took Shambles session-gone-wrong at face value should in any way feel they've been cheated. In fact they were better-off, because they were in a position to explore tha analogy better, and help identify some of the ways in which our situation here is similar and is different.

For myself, I think I am squarely on both sides of this argument. I just don't see this distinction between music/song and non-music/song as being a clearcut one.

I can't go very long talking about other issues without some reference to a song creeping into the conversation (like it did just now), so long as I'm talking with people with whom I share that kind of common language ; and I can't go through an evening of songs without some of them turning to the kind of issues that are claimed to be non-music related. There are no issues that are non-music related. If you need convincing of that, just have a browse through the Digital Tradition.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 08:21 AM

I have not been following this thread, and I have not read all of the postings to it. However, from the ones I read about the alegory of the Mudcat, I do have a response that I would like to share.

This is not a session. This is a forum. A session made up of music. A forum is made up of words. Because this is a website for and about music, it makes sense for at least some of the words to be about music. However, since it is about music, it can also be about musicians and music lovers. If it is about musicians and music lovers, then it can be about what musicians and music lovers have to say. And it seems to me that they get to decide what that is going to be.

But to address the session issue, I used to go to what we call here, a jam session. It thrived as long as no-one imposed too many rules. One day the owner of the hall where we held the jam decided to impose quite a few rules that essentially killed it. Now, very few people attend, and most of the best musicians stopped coming altogether.

This is not an allegory. It is a true story. Some things, especially living things like the Mudcat, need to be held with an open hand.

Respectfully,

Carol

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 08:43 AM

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 10:22 AM

Here's a quote from Chesterton for anyone who might be feeling pissed off at Shambles because they took the story at face value:

His soul will never starve for exploits or excitement who is wise enough to be made a fool of. To be "taken in" everywhere is to see the inside of everything.

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 03:39 AM

If you would allow me to return to the session for a moment?

Musicians new to that session would still find enough good music to enjoy. Unfortunately they may have to put up with those 'old farts' going on about how much better things used to be. Both views may be correct but it is the music produced from that moment, by 'old farts' and the 'newer farts' together, that is important……….. If only they can force their way in to the crowded pub.

Maybe all that farting will help clear the place?

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: RichM
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:03 AM

Session or allegory, my thought is the same:

You don't have to play in every tune. And you can't stop others from playing.

Rich

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 09:33 AM

Clear the place of whom? And what's wrong with a crowd? The more the merrier. (If we are still talking about Mudcat)

Subject: RE: Can you help with this session?
From: Alice
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 10:01 AM

Well, the love of music is what I thought drew most people to the Mudcat. If this is really about the Mudcat session, I can relate to not hearing the music. I was hopeful that with advances in being able to share sound files that it would be of interest to people in Mudcat to hear music. Not everyone can play an abc of music. Sure, some can get to hearme, but not all of us can. There are various ways to send sound to each other, but there is not ONE way that works for everyone. Not everyone can even get Mudcat radio. I was surprised that every thread I started with a shared sound file as its topic soon dropped off the page, like this one. I guess having another way to hear music on the Mudcat was not as popular an idea as I thought it would be.

If this is about a "real world" session, then maybe changing it to a different night or time or location is the best remedy.