Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: IanC
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:38 AM

Guest: KenJ

There is (or was) a Mudcat Awards. Last run in 2007 as I haven't had the energy to run it the last couple of years. Voting in March for the traditional awards day of 1st April.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:26 AM

I'm intrigued to know what the "mainstream folk scene/community" is.

Is it Mike Harding and the Radio 2 Folk Awards or New Roots? Is it Steve Heap and the FAE or the EFDSS? Is it Smooth Ops? Is it the folk clubs and, if so, which ones, the ones full of puritanical traddies, the ones full of navel gazing snigger/snoggers or the ones full of people singing Beatles songs from a school exercise book? Is it the Morris Ring or the Morris Federation or the Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival? Is it Cambridge Folk Festival or Sidmouth or Cropredy or Tenterden or the John Harvey Tavern (1st Tuesday of the month 8:00)? Is it fRoots or The Living Tradition or Mustrad or Properganda? Is it the Newcastle degree course or Hands on Music? Is it Topic or Wildgoose or Free Reed Records or a self produced CD recorded in someone's living room?

Is it a monolithic organisation surrounded by impenetrable walls? Am I inside or out and why has it suddenly become trendy to be "on the fringes" (wherever they may be)?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:00 AM

I'd say you covered pretty much everything I would describe as the folk mainstream there.

As your description shows, it's not a monolithic organisation surrounded by impenetrable walls – it's actually quite heterogenous. But it's still the mainstream.

I wouldn't say it's *suddenly* become cool to be on the fringes. It's *always* been cool to be on the fringes.

And let's keep things in perspective here. We're talking about one particular album (Nancy Wallace's 'Old Stories') being nominated for a Horizon award. It's a bit less Smooth than the usual. Nancy W isn't as much of a regular on the folk circuit as most. But it's hardly a 'difficult' album: it's quite mellow and pretty, in fact.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 09:03 AM

The Snail, you're missing the point. Nancy Wallace and plenty of other people like her (see some of the names on Matt's list as examples, but there are plenty more) haven't built up a following or reputation via any of the routes you mention and primarily play to an audience that isn't particularly engaged with the mainstream folk world that you so accurately describe.

All leaps of logic around "monolithic organisation surrounded by impenetrable walls" and what many or may not be "trendy" (a wonderfully vintage word from an earlier era, that!) are purely your own inferences from things that haven't been said. Liking an off-piste artist does not imply that everything on-piste is rubbish.

Personally, I think the fact that there are people outside of the known and established folk firmament playing folk music to largely non-folk (in the on-piste sense) audiences, is in every way a good thing. If certain sections of the folk world (such as fRoots - which has one foot in and one foot out anyway - and now, tentatively, the BBC Awards) are showing signs that they recognise there are interesting things afoot out there, good for them.

I'd imagine a lot of the people who are part of the mainstream folk world would really enjoy Nancy's album - it's warm, woody and beautifully done and she has a wonderful singing voice.

Stuff like this is surely a cause for celebration not prickly defensiveness?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 09:37 AM

well I think it's very telling that an album like Nancy's would be considered in any way a fringe album. It uses conventional folk instrumentation (accordions, melodions, acoustic guitar, fiddle), you can her clear influences like Sandy Denny, Anne Briggs, maybe even a smidge of Neil Young circa Harvest. It's from the fringes of the folk scene only in terms of 'political geography', not in terms of music one.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 09:49 AM

One of the things that always strikes me as a little absurd is that, in today's musical climate, an album like 'Love, Death & the Lady', by Shirley & Dolly Collins, were released today, it would probably be considered to be on the fringes. Or even, say, Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger's 'Two Way Trip'. (To name two albums I happen to have been listening to a fair bit of late.) I don't think either of them would have made a Radio 2 playlist.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:11 AM

One of the things that always strikes me as a little absurd is that, in today's musical climate, an album like 'Love, Death & the Lady', by Shirley & Dolly Collins, were released today, it would probably be considered to be on the fringes.

I am not so sure this is true you know. Why would it be considered to be on the fringes? Maybe I am missing something. I genuinely would like to know why a genre of music (however defined) that has accepted the Watersons, "Old Routes, New Routes", Steeleye Span, Demon Barbers, Bellowhead, Glorystrokes etc has difficulty accepting change!!

I like to think that although I am 60+ years of age my tastes are very broad. BUT experience and history tell me that as folk gets a higher profile the mainstream press tend to pick up on people simply because they are different. Not because they are especially good.

They are hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread. They are said to be upsetting "the old fuddy duddies" who are into "hey nonny no type folk music" and worst of all "the Aran Sweater Brigade" (though they usually mis-spell it "Arran") who are said to "..constitute the Folk Police".

It's horlicks of course but it saves them knowing anything about that of which they write. The problem is some people believe it.

My experience in this world is that people vote with their feet. (CD sales, folk clubs, festival appearances). If they really are any good they will get booked more than twice.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:57 AM

I don't disagree with you really, in that I'm sure that plenty of folk listeners who dig the Watersons, Steeleye Span or the Folk Roots, New Routes album would enjoy listening to Alasdair Roberts, Nancy Wallace, Meg Baird, the recent folk material by James Yorkston, or Benjamin Wetherill.

But they won't find out much about those particular artists via the traditional folk music media (fRoots mag being a notable exception).

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:05 AM

and I suppose, also, that I'm not talking about 'innovation' per se, so much as that elusive quality known as 'attitude'. I mean, the Demon Barbers and Bellowhead are all very well, but they're not really the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I hear more of a continuum back to the classic albums of the folk revival (and even, to an extent, to the 'source singer' recordings) in the fringe folk of today than I hear among the kind of 'young professionals' folk acts that tend to win awards and headline festivals.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:18 AM

Matt

what is "traditional folk music media" other than the various A5 regional bulletins?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:37 AM

I'd say the last comment from TheSnail above defines it quite well.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:44 AM

Yup its pretty indefinable really, I'm not sure theres such a thing as a traditional folk media that is excluding or including certain people in any meaningful sense of the word anyway.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 12:10 PM

as in..

"Mike Harding and the Radio 2 Folk Awards or New Roots... Steve Heap and the FAE or the EFDSS ... Smooth Ops... the folk clubs .... the Morris Ring or the Morris Federation or the Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival ... Cambridge Folk Festival or Sidmouth or Cropredy or Tenterden or the John Harvey Tavern (1st Tuesday of the month 8:00) ... fRoots or The Living Tradition or Mustrad or Properganda ... the Newcastle degree course or Hands on Music ... Topic or Wildgoose or Free Reed Records"

That's kind of what I was referring to (with the exception of some coverage in fRoots)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 12:49 PM

Yup but i genuinely think its hard to lump the above together as some kind of exclusive mainstream (and apologies if this isnt what you meant), all of whom have their own differing roles.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:44 PM

What! No category for best fusion? Should go to the Quo doing 'All around my hat'!

:D eG

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

...or was it Steeleye doing 'Down down'?

I forget.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,folkandroots
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM

James Findlay won the young folk awards this evening
very promising sets from all the finalists

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:18 PM

"It's a bit less Smooth than the usual. Nancy W isn't as much of a regular on the folk circuit as most. But it's hardly a 'difficult' album: it's quite mellow and pretty, in fact. "

Agreed: fringes in this context are not defined artistically. It's just who happens to hit the radar of the mainstream folk scene, and probably has more to do with marketing than music. Of course, Ian rectified that by giving Nancy and her compatriots lots of coverage, so they are presumably not on the fringes anymore. So now we have to find the Next Big Thing that's lurking in the fringes. That's fine - I think it's very good that we make an effort to look beyond the usual suspects. But like Dave, I think we also need to remember that novelty doesn't always equal quality.

:)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 09:26 PM

Mat Milton wrote:
I don't disagree with you really, in that I'm sure that plenty of folk listeners who dig the Watersons, Steeleye Span or the Folk Roots, New Routes album would enjoy listening to Alasdair Roberts, Nancy Wallace, Meg Baird, the recent folk material by James Yorkston, or Benjamin Wetherill.

But they won't find out much about those particular artists via the traditional folk music media (fRoots mag being a notable exception).

Actually, English Dance & Song has reviewed, favourably, albums by Alasdair Roberts and James Yorkston (and will review the new Ian King album in the next issue), and we reported on the St George's Day concert featuring some of the new singers that were featured (Nancy wallace included) ... and that concert was held and hosted by the EFDSS! I'll get Nancy's CD reviewed as well if someone sends it to me! In fact, I'll go and ask for it myself!
Derek Schofield
Editor: English Dance & Song

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,guest Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:37 AM

Warm congratulations to James Findlay from myself and Denise . James is a remarkable young gentleman, a quite excellent guitarist and fiddle player.

As many of you know, I'm not the geatest fan of 'the tradition', and that has forced a parting of the ways between me and the cat. However round Dorchester (where I live these days) James is most definitely 'the man'. A shining example of creative energy and commitment.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Cats
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:40 AM

Congrats James. Yes!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Capo da Monty
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:03 AM

Well done indeed!
I'm with you all the way on that one Al.
I saw him at Bournemouth Folk Club earlier in the year and he was fantastic.
The performance was full of energy and passion for his music. Just what is needed in the folk scene.

CdM

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:12 AM

Excellent news. I was lucky enough to be part of a session with James and two others (Jerry Bird and John Bullock) at a pub near Dorchester during the summer and was amazed by his sheer talent and enthusiasm.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:29 AM

Spleen Cringe

The Snail, you're missing the point.

Indeed I am. The point of my string of "Is it...?" question was to illustrate what a diverse, disorderly and disconnected business the whole folk scene/community was. It consists of braided streams, isolated creeks and a few stagnant pools. Some of its factions overlap and interact, some deeply loathe each other. To talk of a "mainstream" seems to me to be meaningless.

Nancy Wallace is clearly a talented young woman but, from listening to her MySpace page, a fairly conventional singer/guitarist. Her current (slightly out of date) gig list consists of two folk clubs and an arts centre.

She has appeared at The Magpies Nest who said of her -

Nancy Wallace was born a folk brat, and spent far more of her formative years than is healthy in the back rooms of Suffolk pubs, singing and playing her little heart out. In her teen years - and possibly as a result of a concussion caused by a stray morris stick - she joined an electric barn dance band playing the trombone.

(See http://www.themagpiesnest.co.uk/artists/nancy-wallace for the full article.)

All pretty normal. What makes her "outside of the known and established folk firmament"? (Your emphasis.) What makes her an "off-piste artist"?

matt milton

We're talking about one particular album (Nancy Wallace's 'Old Stories') being nominated for a Horizon award. It's a bit less Smooth than the usual.

I don't think either of them would have made a Radio 2 playlist.

So does being "mainstream" mean meeting with the approval of Smooth Ops and Mke Harding? I think that's about 98% of the folk scene. Great! We're all on the fringes.

It looks to me as if this "outside the mainstream" business is just a piece of marketing hype cooked by journalists (or one journalist in particular) to feed their own agenda whatever that may be.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:34 AM

Congratulations to James Findlay who gave us an excellent night when we booked him at the Lewes Arms (as we were then)last year.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:30 AM

Erm......

Can I just ask something, please....

WHERE is the Duncan McFarlane Band?

For years these guys have been performing excellently, bringing traidtional songs into the present day with some amazing arrangements.
They send people absolutely wild with their music.....and they also play acoustic versions of their folk rock traditional songs, as well as Duncan playing solo, too.

Even Diane has sung Duncan's praises, in fact, he and his band are one of the few acts that we agree over. His arrangements of Nic Jones songs are brilliantly done, both acoustically and with his electric band. I've seen the band live several times now, and have never ceased to be amazed at the reaction they get from their audience. And their audience is all ages..

Anyway, that's my bit....and yet another reason why the public should be allowed to vote, because bands like Duncan's would be voted for by many, many people.

But hey, I'm just a peasant, not to be trusted with 'musical knowledge' despite watching The DMcF band blow the roof off Sidmouth's Ham Arena when they supported the Battlefield Band on the last day of the first Sidmouth Folk Week, and knowing that this band is something special!

Prepare to be Reviatlised about The Tradition!
The Duncan McFarlane Band - Myspace


And here is James: (very nice, James)
James Findlay - Myspace

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:32 AM

Or, you could even be Revitalised About The Tradition, by Duncan's band... (oops!) :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM

I said -

So does being "mainstream" mean meeting with the approval of Smooth Ops and Mke Harding? I think that's about 98% of the folk scene. Great! We're all on the fringes.

Of course I meant "I think that excludes about 98% of the folk scene."

Any comments?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Niamh Boadle (guest)
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 06:37 PM

In reply to Kitty,

I entered the Young Folk Awards Competition on my own as I am also a solo performer and really wanted to have a go. I am 15 but the boys in Tri aren't old enough to enter yet!

It was a great experiance being in the finals and I had loads of fun. Everyone got on really well. James Findlay is a great mate and I'm really pleased he won. He deserved it and I'm sure he'll have a great year to come!

Niamh