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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:22 PM Guest- Without a fragment, or the recording, I can't even speculate about BM's missing verse. They do seem to be taking liberties, rewriting, with a fine old shanty and even misusing some of the sailor jargon such as "gonna slip my cable" which literally means unfastening the anchor line (sometimes bueying it) from the ship for a speedy get-away but usually means as sland that the a sailor has died. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Dead Horse Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:29 PM Yeah. Those old shantymen were real fussy about the exact words that they would use for a song, and in what order to sing 'em. Not like us folk singers, eh? (Pause for irony to sink in) There are as many versions to any one shanty as there are singers to sing 'em, matey :-) AND they are all correct! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:28 AM refresh! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Nerd Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:34 PM In the James Madison Carpenter collection at the Library of Congress we have a version collected from Edward Robinson: John Brown's body in the alley So help my Bob, I'm bully in the alley Bully in Shinbone Alley Away, hey! Bully in the alley I lost my jacket in the alley So help my Bob, I'm bully in the alley Bully in Shinbone Alley Away, hey! Bully in the alley And one collected from James Forman of Leith: O, I lost my coat in Storrie's Alley O-o-o I'm bully in the alley! He chucked me out because I had no money Way-ay-ay, I'm bully in the alley Mary Jane is my good fancy O-o-o I'm bully in the alley! But she took my watch and stole my money Way-ay-ay, I'm bully in the alley She pawned my clothes in Storrie's Alley O-o-o I'm bully in the alley! And then she kicked me out me out because I had no money Way-ay-ay, I'm bully in the alley I'll see what else i can turn up about these versions.... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:27 AM Hey, longtime reader, first time contributer. I've recently been 'diving in' to the world of shantying, and have found this forum to be an amazing resource. Bully in the Alley is one of my favorite songs, and I wanted to learn a little more about it. There's a youtube video where Tom Lewis presents a wonderfully colorful explanation for the meaning of "Bully in the Alley" that seems to expand a bit on the standard notion that it merely refers to a drunken sailor. Tom Lewis claims that this explanation was given to him by none other than Stan Hugill. I will do my best to transcribe this, although the video is worth watching, as Tom Lewis can be seen doing a marvelous Hugill impression. (i'll post the link below) Hugill: "on a traditionally rigged ship, if the standing rigging is made of natural fiber, it tends to stretch. If it's not kept tight, the mast will tend to flop to one side or the other, which is not really too much of a problem except for the helmsman. Because the helmsman will be at his wheel, he'll be following his course, and be nicely on his course, and suddenly the mast will FLOP to one side, as the wind has changed, or the sea direction has changed. Suddenly, he's got to compensate for that. And he'll just get it nicely back on its course when the mast will FLOP the other way, and he'd suddenly have to compensate for that! So he's sort of steering in the right direction, but he's only making an approximate course. At that point, the ship is said to be 'Bully in the Alley'..........The sailor in the song has spent too long in a tavern, and he's trying to get back to his ship, but he's only steering an approximate course. So he's calling for his mates to give him some help." I'm interested that I've never come across this particular explanation anywhere else. Not knowing anything about sailing myself, I'm hoping somebody else has stumbled on this particular explanation for the more obscure nautical expression (as opposed to the standard one about being blind drunk in an alley) and could shed more light on it.......Cheers Hugill Explanation as Recounted by Tom Lewis |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:13 PM I was at that performance, and I think I recall chatting about it with someone(s) afterwards. IMO this explanation is total fancy. I could speculate that Hugill was pressed by people to offer an explanation, and he didn't want to let down the other festival folks who looked up to his experience. I don't know if he gave the explanation in a positive/confident way, or if he also provide caveats (e.g. like "I'm really not sure, but here's a theory...") and people who *wanted* to feel secure dropped those caveats when they retold it. It just seems unlikely to me that Hugill would be privy to any special information about the meaning, so whatever he would say would be more imagination than fact. I am not in the right mindset right now to offer any really serious opinion of my own on the meaning, except to say that I tend to doubt it has anything much to do with sailing. If anything related to the singers' working environment, I'd guess it pertains to something stevedores were doing. Playing the word-match game, the "alley" might be some space or passage through which cargo must go. In all, I'm doubtful of it being a "nautical expression." That's my gut reaction. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:28 PM Thanks. From what I've read/understand, Hugilll was certainly one put a fanciful spin on a simple story. And the general feel in these forums is that he began to buy more and more into his authoritativeness, shifting his tone over the years from apprehensive to firm assertion when discussing origins and meanings. I had a feeling, it being a second hand yarn and all, and there being no other accounts to back it up, that this explanation was too good to be (totally) true. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM I agree with Gibb. Another possibility is that the association once occurred randomly to Hugill, stuck in the back of his mind, and then, many years later, he recalled it when asked without thinking about where it came from! If you don't think this is possible, wait till you're my age! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:09 AM Not to mention that bullies are not always drunk and not always sailors. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:44 AM But it's a great story and now has become part of the evolving background to the song. How those old shellbacks would be amused by our babble! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM > How those old shellbacks would be amused by our babble! Not an appealing thought. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM Online Etymology Dictionary tells me that the word 'Bully' comes from the Dutch 'Boel' meaning 'brother or lover' originally a 'sweetheart' but the meaning deteriorated from 'sweetheart' to 'fine fellow,' 'blusterer' and finally to 'harasser of the weak', the link between 'lover' and 'ruffian' possibly coming from one form that meant 'protector of a prostitute' It is also an adjective meaning 'worthy, jolly, admirable', as in 'bully for you', which is a reflection of its earlier, positive meaning. (somebody acting in a brotherly fashion) The term 'bully' in indeed has less of a connotation with intoxication and more one of being obstinate, stubborn and rowdy, none of which are requisite, but are nonetheless key symptoms of being drunk. The amusing thing is that most of the word's alternate definitions could serve as a reasonable explanation. it reminds me of the grammatical curiosity 'Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo' where you can construct a meaningful sentence using only homonyms. In this case, several sailors are granted shore leave and wind up in a public house, The bully, but bullied bullied bully bullied a bully bully's bullied bully, so bullied bully bully's bullies bullied him into alley. (The fine yet harassed and rowdy sailor, in turn harassed some fine gentleman's drunken sweetheart, so other drunken, well meaning pimps girlfriends threw him out into the alley) --------------------------- But to return to the original topic, Another thought (SPECULATION ALERT) is that it could be the other way around, with the sailing expression cropping up later on, after the 'bully in the alley' had already come to mean a drunken sailor. After all, a wavering vessel as described before would certainly give the appearance of being steered by a soused helmsman (or that the ship is being stubborn and steering its own course) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: doc.tom Date: 09 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM On the other hand: "Bully in the Alley crops up as published only from Short via Sharp ("I have no variants of this nor do I know of any printed version of it") – except for one other version that Hugill 'picked up in the West Indies'. There are three other shanties of this title in the Carpenter collection, with first lines that seem to be related (Edward Robinson - 'John Brown's body in the alley' and Cptn. Robinson – 'I lost my jacket in the alley' [both of Sunderland, England] – and Mr. Forman [of Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland] – 'I lost my coat in Story's Alley'). Judging by extant recordings and the internet, all revival versions seem to have the same structure, and stem from Hugill. Hugill's version gives Shinbone Al as a location in his text. There are Shinbone Alleys in St. George's, Bermuda, in Antigua, and in Pittsburgh – to name but a few! (Story's Alley, incidentally, is in Leith). There has also been some speculation that 'Bully' is a synonym for 'drunk': it could equally be synonymous with 'bullish' i.e. agressive (which might account for leaving your jacket in an alley after taking it off for a fight!). Short's version gives no location and no indication of drunkenness. In fact, the fragments of Short's text are more reminiscent of Sally In Our Alley (the composition by Henry Carey published in 1726, which became very popular in the U.S. in the nineteenth century, not the Gracie Fields 1931 song) than of Bermudan alcoholism – but either 'explanation' of the shanty is probably grasping at straws and ultimately pointless. Hugill comments, on the version published by Sharp, that "I feel that this version has all the signs of being in a worn condition, as though Mr. Short's memory, in this case, didn't serve him well." It certainly proved a difficult mss to get 'inside' and understand. Sharp did not always mark his mss with 'solo' or 'chorus', nor did he usually mark the stresses – the conclusion must be that when he does so (as he does throughout this shanty), it is because he has specifically checked it with Short for whatever reason. Sharp's solo/chorus markings and stresses initially did not seem logical, primarily because the Hugill version is so ingrained! However, the way it seems to work is actually as Sharp recorded/published it, although it is still open to some degree of interpretation. It feels as though this version is far closer to a cotton-screwing chant than the Hugill version. (Carpenter makes a note beside the version from Edward Robinson that it also was for 'cotton screwing'). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 09 Feb 13 - 08:15 AM > There has also been some speculation that 'Bully' is a synonym for 'drunk'. There is simply no evidence that this was true. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: doc.tom Date: 09 Feb 13 - 08:35 AM Hi Lighter - absolutely! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Gibb Sahib Date: 09 Feb 13 - 07:02 PM Tom- It feels as though this version is far closer to a cotton-screwing chant than the Hugill version. How so? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: doc.tom Date: 10 Feb 13 - 07:48 AM The structure, dear boy! - and, of course, the absence of a grand chorus. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Charley Noble Date: 10 Feb 13 - 11:25 AM In the South Street area of Lower Manhattan is another Shinbone Alley, as documented in an illustration from DARKNESS & DAYLIGHT IN NEW YORK, Helen Campbell, published by A. D. Worthington & Co., Hartford, ©1897, p. 252. "Bully in the Alley" as I mentioned way up above was a standard shout of the stevedores who manned the screw-jacks which crammed the bales of wool into ships in Sydney Harbour around 1900, as documented by poet/labor organizer Edwin J. Brady (1869-1952) who worked as a clerk on the docks. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Gibb Sahib Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM The structure, dear boy! - and, of course, the absence of a grand chorus. What aspect of the structure? What distinguishes the structure of a cotton-screwing chant from a deepwater chanty? Which is the one that lacks a grand chorus? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Gibb Sahib Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:31 PM A visitor to New Orleans claimed to have heard Black men at work singing a "Shinbone Alley" song. It actually corresponds in part to TD Rice's stage minstrel song (c. 1833?), so there may have been some cross-influence—if this was not the source Rice took it from. The author is not clear whether he actually heard it there, or if this is a general "type." "...those who have never visited the South and South-west, let them journey hitherward, and hear the negroes singing at their work — regaling their humble fancies with some such intellectual bijou as — 'As I was gwyin' down Shinbone alley, Long time ago, There I spied ole Johnny Gladdin', Long time ago, oh-e-oh!' " ["Leaves from the South-West and Cuba." _The Knickerbocker_ 8.1 (July 1836). Pg. 51.] |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Gibb Sahib Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:03 PM The other reference I want to share is to the same song used in a corn shucking context. Hentz, Caroline Lee. _Linda; or, The Young Pilot of the Belle Creole._ New York: F.M. Lupton, 1881. This novel was written in 1848 (published 1850). The author, born ca.1801/2, lived in North Carolina, Tennessee, and Alabama at various times in the 1820s-40s. An extended quotation here. Scene from a Louisiana plantation. Also features some form of "Sittin' on a Rail." Pp. 157-8. Soon she saw a torch-light glimmering through the trees, and she found herself near a large corn-crib, from which the choral strains were issuing. To one unaccustomed to such a spectacle, nothing could have been more picturesque lhan the scene that presented itself to Linda's eye. Large, pine torches were flaring near the door, and threw their red light on the black visages of about forty or fifty negroes, sitting in a ring round an immense pile of corn, on which was seated the sable master of the ceremonies, who was tossing the corn down to the group below, who seized it, one by one, with a yell of delight, and, squaring their elbows and shrugging their shoulders, they vied with each other in stripping off the dry husks from the golden ears. The African monarch of this harvest festival, as he threw the grain into the dexterous hands of the workmen, rolled out a volume of voice that shook the pine-boards of the crib, and every negro joined in the chorus with a vehemence and glee, a physical joy and strength, which none of the pale race can imitate— "As I went out by the light of the moon, Merrily ringing this old tune, I come across a big raccoon A sotting [sic] on a rail," shouted the Agrarian king; and then the sable orchestra chimed bravely in— "A sotting [sic] on a rail, a sotting on a rail— I come across a big raccoon A sotting on a rail." Then, as the spirit of melody waxed stronger, the master would vary his strains, and— "As l went down to Shinbone alley, Long time ago, To buy a bonnet for my Sally, Long time ago," echoed through the woods, in one full, deafening chorus, dying away only to be repeated with more Herculean vigour. There is nothing that bears the name of music, that can be compared to the negro's singing; he sings all over; every muscle quivers with melody; it gushes from every pore The sounds seem to roll from the white of his eyes, as well as through his ivory teeth. His shoulders, elbows, knees, all appear instinct with song. He winks, he grins, stamps with his feet, taps with his heel, pats with his toes, raps with his knuckles—in short, gesticulates in every possible manner the human form admits. Oh! he is in his glory at a corn shucking! I get the feeling from the tone of this that the author would not simply have been quoting T.D. Rice's popularized version--which suggests this was the vernacular tradition on which Rice based his song. These references don't explain "bully in the alley," but they point to the existence of a similar song in an Afro-American work context before sailor chanties became widespread. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Gibb Sahib Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:40 AM Refresh. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Charley Noble Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM Gibb- It's not surprising to me that "Shinbone Alley" has such deep roots ashore but thanks for the additional references. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: doc.tom Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:11 AM Why does Short's version feel more like a screwing chant? 1) What Charlie said twice above. 2) Because Short told Sharp that that was what is was used for (as well as his own use as a shanty) 3) Opinion - because it is not structured in a common 'shanty' style, neither line:chorus:line:chorus nor with the addition of a chorus of similar scansion. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Gibb Sahib Date: 22 Feb 13 - 03:14 PM Thanks, Tom, but I'm afraid you've got me a little more confused on your actual position. I don't understand why now you're say it "feels" more like a cotton chant because people said it was. If it was because people said it was, why not just say it was ("reported as"), rather than that it "feels" like it? Where does this ability to feel cotton chants come from? As to whether it was used for cotton-screwing, you'll have no disagreement from me. I have all the same sources as you that say that. I believe the song was, if not originally a stevedore or cotton screwer's song, then at least also used in that capacity. My issue here is with why you want to tout Short's as the cotton-screwing version in distinction from others and despite the fact that Short also evidently used it (first and foremost?) as a shanty. For some time you have been presenting this Short version specifically with emphasis on its being a cotton-screwing version. These have stayed in my mind, and I have been wondering what your logic was. For example, on another thread you say, In fact, Short's version is structurally different to the one Stan gives (and everybody else subseqently sings), and does appear to be much closer to an original hoosier's chant then Stan's! and This structure is much more a Hoosier's form than the later Hugill form and may therefore endorse Hugill's opinion that the shanty derived from the cotton ports. Above you say, It feels as though this version is far closer to a cotton-screwing chant than the Hugill version. [Gibb Sahib: How so?] The structure, dear boy! - and, of course, the absence of a grand chorus. All the time you emphasized structure - And in your last comment (quoted here), your "dear boy!" and "of course" make it sound as if this is supposed to be elementary and obvious. But what is the structure of a cotton-stowing chant? - I asked. How did it differ from a shanty's structure? Rather than positively explaining what a cotton-stowing chant's structure is -- perhaps by bringing in the example of other cotton chants, or by explaining how the work actions and pace corresponded to or maybe necessitated this structure -- your argument (*as I see it*) is that this structure is just "different" from 1) Typical shanties and 2) Hugill's "Bully." The assumption seems to be that deepwater shanties and cotton-screwing chants (all of which, incidentally, come under the umbrella of "chanties" in my mind) can be differentiated with respect to form. That is something that interests me very much, not least because it raises questions about just how cotton songs "became" deepwater songs or how these songs were shared / set to dual purpose if they were structurally different. I think these questions lead one (or at least me!) to suspect that they weren't necessarily different (structurally) at all, but I have seen enough as well to suspect that there could be notable differences in some cases. In all, without a definition of "the structure" of cotton chants, one can't assume they were different in specific ways. As for the structure being different from 1) Typical shanties: I think it is reasonable to form an idea of a "typical" shanty as you did, Tom. I don't need to point out that there are many exceptions to those typical shanty structures. But just as the exceptions don't invalidate the notion of a "typical" shanty structure, the difference in structure (and it's not really *that* different) of Short's "Bully" from "typical shanty" doesn't logically make it less of a deepwater shanty's and more of a cotton song's structure. As for the structure being different from 2) Hugill's "Bully": Let us be clear that Hugill's does *not* have a grand chorus. Tom, you never clarified what song you were referring to when you said "...the absence of a grand chorus." Hugill's does not have one—despite folkies singing it as if it did. I would say that Short's—at least as Sharp has marked it—does have something like a grand chorus. (Sharp's marking are another issue; I don't quite buy the logic about how his markings must be accurate because he must have checked them with Short.) Either version has the potential for having a grand chorus of the type you call "of similar scansion." It is just a matter of repeating a phrase and having everyone sing more of the lines! If, say, we divide a chorus into 4 sections, a "typical" grand chorus might have everyone singing on all 4, i.e. on 1, 2, 3, and 4. However, there are variations of this where everyone sings on parts 2 and 4, or on parts 2, 3, and 4. In this case, how Sharp marked it, everyone sings on 1, 2, and 4. I think (agree) this is unusual...but it doesn't indicate a cotton song. How was Hugill able to suspect it was a cotton song if the structure of the version he collected was not (by your logic, Tom) like a cotton song? How was the structure of Short's version more like a cotton song if he used it as a deepwater shanty? Why should we draw conclusion about the structure of cotton songs from Short's shanty rather than from Hugill's shanty? In other words, can it be argued that structure has something to do with all this? And if so, how can it be argued without a positive description of cotton chant structure(s)? My opinion is that to throw in this "It feels as though [Short's] version is far closer to a cotton-screwing chant..." is not far off from throwing in, "There has also been some speculation that 'Bully' is a synonym for 'drunk'". It's a sort of "liner-notes" language that I completely understand and accept within its own practical and discursive context. But it *is* like sort of dropping a bit of gossip into a crowd and seeing where it goes...to see who, years later, will say, "Well, I heard it meant "drunk"...I heard this was the cotton-screwing version." What's more, to drop in liner-notes (cut and paste) into a critical discussion -- a different discursive context -- is odd. This is the chance to really work out *why* the version may feel like a cotton song! It would be a great feeling to pin down; feelings like this often lead to great discoveries. I don't think it is the place to drop in unsubstantiated ideas in a way as if they were already well establish in prior publication, research, etc. Gibb |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: doc.tom Date: 23 Feb 13 - 07:15 AM Gibb. I didn't say it was - I said it felt more like: TO ME, but who am I to know anything. 'Dear boy' is a theatre cultural thing - Olivier and Hoffman - never mind, obviously lost in translation. Thank you for your opinions. Once the possibilities are aired, the next stage is speculating round and round and.. Sorry, not going to play that game. By the way, love your reconstruction of the Caribbean Rosabella. TomB |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST,Oz Childs Date: 17 Feb 14 - 05:46 PM Always a favorite chantey song. I hope to sing it on the Balclutha, at their monthly sing. I learned it from the Helen Schneyer record, but I will use the Blue Murder version. A couple of notes: (1) The singer is an incurable romantic, who exemplifies the triumph of hope over experience. "Spliced nearly" means "almost married", and it is clear that even though he went to sea after his last rejection, he thinks Sally will marry him in the end. I hope that worked out for him! (2) "Bully" means just what it did in the 19th Century. Great! Feelin' good! First-rate! Not drunk. Though I know of fewer songs that are likely to invite people to sing along, if they have had a few pints or drams. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: GUEST,Shameless Date: 13 Jan 18 - 12:41 AM 'M not sure the Oysterband is directly related. "Bully" refers to being pitch-drunk. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bully in the Alley From: Felipa Date: 30 Jun 21 - 06:22 PM Second song of three in this set from Keith Murphy at Northern Roots festival 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey8v26fVGYg |
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