BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?

Subject: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:03 PM

I have read a lot of the threads, since joining, that address various long-standing controversies. Now that I have written the best posts I cold in some of these, myself, I find myself wondering...

Have you ever changed your mind about something that was important to you, partly or wholly as a result of being in communication here? And if so, how did that happen?

I start with the assumption that we all learn from each other, on the planet, whenever we communicate (meaningfully).... I'm asking about something deeper than learning, where you realized you might need to change your position on something.

For me, it was that one day, after lots of viewpoints had flown past me, it finally made sense to me why people get so mad about BS here, and an understanding that there was something very precious I had not seen at all, that could be lost. (I am not inviting fresh debate on that, although I suppose that's ineveitable.)

But have you ever changed your mind or, as we say in church somtimes, found "a better heart" as a result of the time you've spent at the Mudcat?

I'd welcome e-mails if you don't want to say, here. (PMs seem to be not working too good for me right now.)

~Susan~

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:08 PM

Yes....I mean, no....

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, Praise, I guess I have. Up till the folk Nazi thread I was using ****Nazi without giving it too much thought. the only time I watched my tongue was around my Jewish friends.

That thread made me realize how sensitive people are to that and I will not use that word combination again.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:17 PM

I can't say I've changed my mind on any of my basic positions on things. However, it has greatly broadened my understanding and interest in many areas, and it certainly has served to broaden my musical interests.
Come to think of it, I guess Mick has convinced me to vote for Gore instead of Nader. Does that count?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Mbo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:24 PM

Not really, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: simon-pierre
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:46 PM

I'm with Praise for the BS thing, but there wasn't other discussions that really changed my mind. But I'm glad to hear what others are thinking.

Joe, you should vote for Nader instead of Gore.

SP, waiting for results...

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:51 PM

Stick with the Big Mick, Joe. He's right!

The Old Man

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM

Don't think so. But the Cafe is enforcing an open mind here, even if I resist it sometimes. Hopefully this makes me more tolerant, even if my mind isn't changed.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: campfire
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:10 PM

I'm not sure I've ever completely changed my mind on anything "near and dear", but I have grown in appreciation for another viewpoint on many topics.

campfire

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Escamillo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM

In general, it was an enrichment experience where I learnt a lot, and broadened my vision of folk and traditional, which I confess, was very poor, and continues to be, but improving rapidly.

In particular, one case I recall was when I realized that other's thoughts about a particular question are not simply his/her beleifs, but they could probably be a part of the person's KNOWLEDGE, in other words, I should not assume that his/her opinions are blindly based upon faith, because they could be based upon facts that I don't see. It's a part of the art of tolerance which should not be forgotten.

The others should also learn to not accuse me to be close-minded, perhaps they are not giving sufficiently strong arguments for their opinions.

I've also learnt many things from Spaw besides music, but cannot tell you.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:58 PM

A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:02 PM

Not so much changed my mind as alerted me to things I didn't know or hadn't given much thought to. Perhaps prodded me to stick my neck out a bit more as I had not been in the habit of saying much to people who were intolerant. I begin to see how much it hurts people who get hit by words I did nothing to stop, even though I knew I did not agree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:53 AM

Yes.......... In this thread Paropy good or bad?.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:57 AM

Paropy sounds like a very nasty complaint indeed, certainly bad..... Parody, it should have been.

But no I've changed my mind again.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Lena
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:09 AM

As I'm in an age in which you strongly believe in your opinions and you actually change them every day without noticing because you're building yourself up,I couldn't track exactly how and when that happened,but I'm sure the mudcat played its part more than a time.It helped me a lot emotionally,everytime my feelings were turned off(it happens very often,in this flat useless months...)something from some posting would suddenly stir me up again.Or bring back my love for human beings.Or train me to sit and 'listen'(now,I know that 'Father and Son 'from Cat Stevens wouldn't be appropriate,but....)And it's our chance to communicate.I f we were all in a room,talking loud and fighting for our turn to speak,we wouldn'express ourselves so openly.And about the xxxxnazi thread...despite the polemic position I took,I now know that I would never abuse certain words/memories.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:35 AM

I'm with Joe and CamiSue . . the discussions have not changed my underlying views on anything important, but have widened my understanding, insight and knowledge on many occasions.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:19 AM

I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure

M

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:37 AM

Well, I guess its like Arlo said, "There's so much to ponder...and not much worth pondering."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:11 PM

I love these answers. Keep it coming.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM

I used to think I couldn't sing, or that if I thought I could I was just fooling myself. But since singing with some of you and asking for feedback, I now believe that I can actually sing. Sometimes, at least...

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:30 PM

Thanks for this thread, Praise. There's a degree of trust- of love and caring- in Mudcat that is distilled in the above posts.

And yes, I believe I am learning new things every day- not necessarily to change my own mind but to broaden it and to accept new elements into the equation. I am in awe of the mind and spirit of many mudcatters...

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:40 PM

Before I found the 'Cat i thought I knew a lot about many kinds of music. I now realize I'm a neophyte. (With apologies to Bonnie)

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:09 PM

well, I am reminded of one of my 5 or 6 all time favorite Peanuts cartoons...

Luck is standing in front of Charlie Brown, demanding..."Change your mind!"

2nd panel..louder.."Change your MIND!"

3rd panel..screaming"CHANGE YOUR MIND, I SAY!"

4th panel..Lucy, waking away muttering.."I wonder why it's so hard to get people to change their minds"

....just a thought

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:10 PM

*sigh*..that's Lucy, of course

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:20 PM

No. I've had some interesting insightful exchanges with lots of folks I respect though. I guess I really wouldn't expect that there would be much mind-changing in forums like this. Musically, I can't think of anything that would require mind-changing and, most of the BS threads offer a lot to talk and argue about, but I doubt there is much mind-changing going on.

I sense that Kendall may be weakening a it though. :>)

DougR

I Deleted your duplicate postings - Bert

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:25 PM

Here's a tip Doug...........Never change your mind and try to corect a mistake after hitting submit.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:25 PM

Sorry. But you get my point, I'm sure. DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:33 PM

Yes, as a matter of fact, after being told to "go to a library and check out a sense of humor" I have subjected the "Cat's in the Kettle" song to a rigorous textual analysis and I have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact funny. Ha ha. Look at me grin.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:38 PM

It all depends what you mean by "change your mind". I've found myself realising that an issue is more complicated than I thought, and that there are more than two points of view in a debate, and the one I hold isn't exactly what I thought it was. It clarifies where the differences lie.. and helps us understand more clearly why it is we hold the views we do hold.

What changes your mind isn't arguments, but real life experiences. These can include coming in contact with people you learn to recognise as having some kind of wisdom, and finding that they have a different set of opinions to yourself. That can happen on the Mudcat. That's one reason BS is valuable. And of course it can happen in the more musical threads, like when someone says something that nmakes you have another look and liusten to something you'd dismissed previously, and your mind really can be changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: L R Mole
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:44 PM

Well...after suffering with Middle-Aged Teachers' Syndrome(during which the stricken one begins to be convinced no one else knows anything) I have to thank the Cat and Catters for reminding me that LOTS of people are smarter/more talented/better informed than I can ever hope to be. So my mind wasn't so much changed as healed.Or back on the way to where it needs to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:07 PM

I can't say that my mind has been changed on any critical issues but without a doubt I have a greater respect for the "other side" on everything from religion to world politics. Mudcat provides a generally tolerant atmosphere and attracts people who are amazingly well informed. This is the first place IN MY LIFE where I have ever been exposed to a rational discussion (and some irrational) on the Orange side of the Ireland "troubles".
Re: Music. I now keep an ongoing list of people and recordings recommended on Mudcat and watch out for them at flea markets, ebay, etc. How did I get through the 60s and 70s in NYC and not know Patrick Sky?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:11 PM

I read somewhere that once a mind has been stretched it can never resume the same shape that it once had. I think this is true. I therefore have to humbly disagree with my esteemed cat-mates who say their mind wasn't changed. Maybe your opinion on something remained as it was, but your mind. . .?

I realize that this seems like mere semantics, but I think there is a kernel (a mere morsel) of food for thought in that very real difference. At times, it is tempting to speak or write about a subject in absolute terms, thinking that your current opinion on said subject is impervious to argument and disputation. But minds THAT ARE ALIVE do change, ever so subtly, as new information is presented, ingested and processed. And in a changing mind anything is possible, even the erosion of a presumably unassailable position on a subject.

That's one of the reasons I like to read as many thread postings as possible, even on subjects with which I have little interest. This is an extremely literate, intelligent, intuitive, diverse, interesting group which shares at least one important, basic characteristic - our appreciation and love for folk music (whatever the hell that is). I never know which thread or which poster is going to stretch my mind wa-a-a-y out of shape. Or just enough to get some new thought process going.

If you want a specific: the discussion on Capital Punishment led to the end of my fence-sitting and my declaration that I'm ag'in it!

Bart-the-ever-changing

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM

I don't know how that happened Sins......(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:38 PM

Excellent question Susan. I posed the same one about a year ago and was somewhat disappointed that virtually no one had changed any of their positions after being exposed to this microcosm of a community. There are several things that I see differently now than I did when I joined Mudcat.

1. My position on gun ownership has changed since I've been here. I live in a very safe area, am a large strong guy with a very well developed sense of self-protection. Were I in a more vulnerable situation I'd probably want to arm myself for protection, as I've seen how scared the police have become to get involved in dangerous situations. I no longer feel I have the right to tell others that they should not be able to protect themselves. This comes from reading so many passionate posts from Mudcatters.

2. I once thought I had intelligent opinions on a solution to the "Irish troubles". I never realized just how deep and angry the feelings on each side are. There IS no solution that won't end in continued violence.

3. I'm more tolerant of deeply religious people. Still don't relate to it, but I wouldn't make the same "Jehova's Witness joke" I made two years ago. Had no idea how religious so many Americans are. Once again, influenced by Mudcat.

4. I was truly naive about "flaming". Not anymore. I now realize that those kids in school who loved to "bully", have found an adult medium to carry it on. Sadly this also comes from Mudcat.

5. It's taken Mudcat to show me that a part of me "needs" a community. Don't think I realized that before.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Biskit
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:21 PM

The Mud cat hasn't changed the way I think about issues that are important,but perhaps the quality of the thinking In as much as realizing the way that other people think about these issues is just as important to them as the way I think is important to me.And the passion with which these people believe.Wheter or not their opinion sways my thinking or not is n't the important thing here.But the opportunity(sp)for different ideas about the same subject, and being open to hearing these ideas,(not neccisarily agreeing with them)But listining is a maturing experiance that has made me realize that I/we should be as protective of their opinions as we are of our own. I Think,Therefore I am,....I Think Peace,-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:27 PM

Thanks Spaw, you spotted the problem right off! I tried to make some changes after hitting the submit thingy. Never again!

Amen, Bartholmew! And just what the hell IS folk music any how?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:05 PM

This is exactly the flexible and forthcoming discussion I hoped could occur from my clumsy question. I keep thinking of it as The Mudcat Mind Exchange-- fresh mind, here at the Cat. Not a trade-in. A carwash.

The related question, and I guess I can suggest a direction for thread creepage since I started this one, would be what some of you have already alluded to-- the way Mudcat has influenced you so as to be more [something] out there in your 3D life. I know my relationships in the fleshworld are better, more open, more loving, more.... ME in them than had been the case before I came reeling in through the door here one day, worn out from trying to make a difference in the Red Cross. At the same time, there is LESS ME in these same relationships, in a good way.

I think I didn't get a better heart here so much as a better way of using it? I treasure you all; everything I read here stretches the envelope I carry the world in. And like minds and hearts, envelopes seem only to be able to grow once the stretching begins.

I especially appreciate the dear friends I have made among those of you who took the time to get to know me, past whatever stereotypes I may have sailed in under. Some of you had to change your minds a bit to do that, and I am not unaware of that when I ask these questions. You've set me a good example. I change for knowing you, too. Sometimes you've been far braver about it than I.

~Susan~

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Biskit
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:11 PM

Well as "Bob" once put it,(Those not busy being born, Are busy dyyyying) Peace-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:48 PM

Well said--everyone. For me, it's about agreeing to disagree. My marriage is based on it. And loving along with and in spite of the differences. Respect - always. I'll always be thankful for a place to connect with somewhat like-minded people-----a place where I can work out my thoughts before I post. (I can't do that in real life.) And I still manage shoot from the lip more often than not. Right now, my email quits after three. There are 35 lined up that won't come in. Each time I pull 'em down, the same 3 show up. Then I delete 'em. It's like Groundhog Day all over again---to paraphrase the film and Yolgi Berra. Makes me want to change my mind about bothering with this computer thing I waste so much time on. I think I will now read a book. ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Marion
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:32 PM

I've stopped referring to the music by Dylan, Cohen, Stan Rogers and so forth as folk and started calling it neo-folk.

I have become much more reticent about singing my original songs, because now I think people may be muttering "another girl singing her diary".

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:38 PM

I think that lately it became "bad" to change your mind when R. Limbaugh began lambasting the prez for having the STRENGTH (as I saw it) to change his mind every so often. He called it "waffling" of being "wishy-washy" or "indecisive" or whatever. Often it was just seeing what was doable---and going with what could be got. It was being a realist. And tangentially, it's why politics is so looked down upon in these times when winning decisively is everything and a tie is seen as a loss as bad as death. President Geo. Bush, as bush league as I think he was/is, learned this when he left the Middle East before beheading Sadam.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:44 PM

Marion--sing your songs, and don't bother about what others may or may not be thinking. It's the joy you take in playing them that is the reward, not how people feel about them.

"I'm free to be whatever I, whatever I choose and I can sing the blues if I want."

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:48 PM

One of my Dad's favourite sayings was "a wise man changes his mind many times, a fool, never".

In this day and age the evidence in front of us changes constantly. The only thing I'll never change my "old fogey" opinion on, is that to enjoy (and sing or play)folk music, you've gotta invest time and curiosity in it. Without the investment, it's just another pop song.

On the other hand, another of my Dad's great beliefs was that a man should "spend his last dime on a shoeshine (rather than something like a coffee) and learn to play a good game of golf"! He WAS a salesman though.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:54 PM

Rick, If I had my druthers, I'd spend it on Scotch. Laphraoig prferably (but I might change my mind.)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,electra
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:13 PM

I wear more green, my left is better than my right, all Irish music is not annoying, the guitar is not the only instrument in folk music. I open myself more to receive friendship and close myself more to keep away the night terrors. I don't tell or listen to ethnic jokes of any kind. I'm more receptive to hearing someone's else's religious or political bent, without being threatened.

The above are how I have changed.

The following are definitions of what I have learnt:

The Good.

di·a·logue or di·a·log (d-lôg, -lg) An exchange of ideas or opinions: achieving constructive dialogue with all political elements.

friend·ship (frndshp) The quality or condition of being friends.

com·mu·ni·ty (k-myn-t) A group of people having common interests: Similarity or identity: a community of interests. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.

humility Humility consists in rating our claims low, in being willing to waive our rights, and take a lower place than might be our due. It does not require of us to underrate ourselves.

The Ugly.

Ju·das (jds) One who betrays another under the guise of friendship.

be·trayal (b-tr) To be false or disloyal to: betrayed by a friend

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: MK
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:22 PM

I've learned much about interpersonal relationships, tolerance and humility, and much about myself as a result of being here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:34 PM

I never wanted to ,or cared to learn how to spell till I found no-one could understand a word I was writing. I still cant spell but now at least I feel bad about it...Realy though, I have gotten a ton of mind twisters here and wakeup calls.. Lots of thanks to all , Guy

Duplicate posting was deleted by a Joe-clone

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Twinkletoes
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:46 PM

A VOTE FOR NADER IS A VOTE FOR NADER. I'M VOTING FOR NADER, AND IT'S NOT A VOTE FOR BUSH OR GORE.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:53 AM

OK Bart. You're right, and since I don't really consider a day complete if I don't learn SOMETHING, my mind has changed much since coming to Mudcat. (Of course it changes in face to face conversations, too, then.

thanks all. While I know flamers exist, it is easier to ignore them on the 'Cat than when they flame you to your face. Hence I consider this place a very safe place to express myself. Now I just gotta get set up for HearMe.

Cami Su

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM

If mind-changing means coming to believe something opposite what I formerly believed, although it has happened in my life, I don't recall that happening here. If it means modifying my opinions, then yes, it has happened here, and other places on the net.

Whenever someone realizes that "I don't understand, would you explain" is not a rhetorical question, or talks about why they believe what they do, I learn something. The world becomes less black and white, more gray.

In "real life," when you start a conversation about a contoversial subject, it's quite likely everyone more or less agrees with you, because you discuss these things with your friends. If you discuss them with strangers, you often wind up yelling and calling each other names. We have a fairly wide range of opinions on any issue here, and folks normally take the time to explain their opinions. I've learned much from those discussions.