Paying to audition - is this normal?

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:33 AM

Marion, the music therapy program you describe is also an entirely different thing. And, honestly, within my experience, I have never seen any of these "potential reward" situations pan out. All potential, no reward. Believe me, there are better ways.

(Goin' to bed now. Back in the morning)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:41 AM

The way I calculate it, those promoters take in nearly $10,000 in application--and 568 people get zilch--it is like a lottery, only with the element of chance removed--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:48 AM

Hey Marion! All you need bring to audition for my band is a cold 6-pack! But it's got to be real cold.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:20 AM

All the comments are appropriately skeptical to the concept, but I don't think this is a scam along the lines of "talent auditions". Because I know the organizer, who I think is pretty community-minded. So I just dropped said organizer a line to ask where the money goes.

I kinda think it's not so much a scam as a habit that could start to seem normal around here, people are forever organizing these musical events as ongoing contests for a spot on a compilation CD. The CD's themselves seem to fall into a deep hole once they're released.

But I'll report back when I get a reply.

Willie-O
Ouch!. Damn sharp fencepost up my #$%^&*(

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Deni
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 05:08 AM

The cream always rises to the top.

Providing of course, the cream has time, opportunity, cheek and a great big whack of determination.

deni

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM

How about this one? My sister played a gig for free for a friend of hers who was trying to promote songwriters in our area. The show that was videotaped for some cable thing that also had a website. Her performance is on their website. Someone asked for a copy to help promote somtehing else she was doing. She contacted these guys and they said sure, send us $50.

They also "invited" her to play a gig that would have about seven or eight different acts. It was an afternoon thing, they were going to film it for their show. It was to be done at Toronto's famous El Macombo. I think they asked for $100 from her, maybe more. She graciously passed. The show did go on though, someone we kind of know sent us an e-mail saying that they were excited to be playing it.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 10:39 AM

An artist need not pay to be judged.

catspaw I like your Mark Bros. rendition of fees.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 12:25 PM

I just checked a couple of websites, and apparently New Folk Concerts is for singer/songwriters, not for people who are primarily performers. This may be something different. I presume the main idea here is to promote your songs, and promoting yourself as a performer is secondary. Well, I guess presenting your songs in the venue like this is not much different from paying to have a demo tape or record made. Since my song repertoire is made up almost entirely of traditional material and I do not write songs (I have such a huge list of traditional songs I want to learn that I doubt I'll ever live long enough to learn them all), I can't say that I'm all that familiar with the hungers and ambitions of aspiring songwriters — so on this matter, I reserve judgment.

But what I said above about straight auditions, I still hold with. There are sleazy promoters out there will try to charge you for the privilege of audition for them. Their next view of you should be buttocks and elbows as you head out the door.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:31 PM

Let's settle this once and for all call the Attorney General's to see what they think about it--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:51 PM

just got a response from the prime organizer of jthis business...it's not a scam, the money goes for stuff like 8 x 10 glossies, SOCAN registration of material, website development, and recording costs for the upcoming compilation CD #2.

It's a lot different from paying $100 just to say you've played a set at the El Mocambo.

Pay for play is one reason I'm never moving to Toronto. I hear in Japan, the usual arrangement for a foreign band that wants to set up a tour there, it's all pay-for-play--and the going rate (I don't know what size of venue, guess we're talking large clubs here) is you pay about $14,000 Cdn ($10,000 US) for the venue. For one night. Clubgoers pay about $72 Cdn to attend.

Willie-O
No Japanese tour scheduled in near future, thankee.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:36 PM

Interesting, Willie-O. But I'm afraid I don't understand about the 8 x 10 glossies thing. When I started performing regularly, I had a pile of them taken by a professional photographer and I always supplied my own. I never paid a promoter to do them.

Back in the late Fifties and early Sixties, Seattle and environs had some darn nice coffeehouses that paid singers -- not much, maybe, but enough to make it worth your while. And the owners of the more successful ones realized that the reason people came to their specific coffeehouse (competition at one time was kind of stiff) was not the coffee and pastries, but the singer. So if a singer was drawing people in, they would bust their asses to see that he or she was happy and well taken care of. These days, I understand that some places charge a fee to let a singer sing at an open mike. I think these people are forgetting why the audiences come to their places and spend money. No singers, no audience, ergo no money. I think there's an old proverb about how one should treat a goose who lays golden eggs.

Before I would pay somebody else to let me play, I would stick my neck out and look into promoting my own concerts. And keep the bleedin' profits (if any) myself.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:41 PM

And why, Willie, should people who are not participating in the event(the 568 that are not selected) foot the bill for that stuff? It is a lottery, plain and simple--and a fixed lottery at that--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SeanM
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 05:55 PM

OK - so a performance promotion fee is assessed for promotional materials, CD production etc.

Why should the auditionees be the ones to pay it? I still lean towards it being a scam even if only the performers pay for it, but asking the auditionee to blindly subsidize any and all performers 'accepted' is just wrong.

If one were to go to a mechanic and be told "Well, you're all paying $100 just for the chance I might look at your car, and maybe about 10% of you will actually get your car worked on"... would THAT be acceptable?

M

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Gary T
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 09:23 PM

Hmm, SeanM, I'm in auto repair, and I kinda like that idea. Sure would make scheduling easier--no limit to how many cars per day or how soon I could get one in the shop for the "audition" part.

Willie-O, you seem comfortable and confident with this scenario being above-board, but most of us seem to be hung up on on paying to AUDITION, which appears exploitive, rather than paying to PARTICIPATE, which is easier to justify. Can you enlighten us further?

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:17 AM

I think we need to distinguish between a scam and a bad deal.

It would be a scam if it's deceptive, i.e., the organizer has no intention of accepting any auditioners other than her friends, or if the money she says is going for CD production is actually going into her pocket.

A bad deal, on the other hand, is when what is get isn't worth what you pay, although it is all over the table and what you get is what you were told you would get. And a bad deal according to one person's values might be a good deal according to another's.

In this instance (and M.Ted, Willie-o was talking about the open mike TV show I described in the first post, not sc's description of Newfolk festivals), what you get for your $20 is the possibility of a slot on a small-time cable show and the possibility that you might end up subsidizing other people's participation instead. I think this is a bad deal, and I suspect that many of you will agree with me; but if somebody just really wants to be on TV, then it might be a good deal for them. But I wouldn't call it a scam, if everyone knows what the deal is going in and the organizer isn't pocketing money she said she'd spend on the project.

Actually Willie-o's posts have brought up a twinge of guilt for me, because I also know the organizer, and I never suspected her of dishonest motives, nor did I mean to make her a target - even anonymously - for accusations of dishonesty. I only mentioned this specific project because it was what got me thinking - what I wanted to talk about what the principle of paying for an audition in general.

You're right, Gary T, that most people are objecting in principle to the idea of having to pay just to audition for something. So what about my example of paying to apply to a university music program? Is there anyone who thinks that this scenario is exploitative or a scam? If not, what's the difference? Don Firth says it's a very different situation, but I don't see why; it's still a case of having to pay just to be considered for a spot.

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:24 AM

Every 'Audition only' University program I've seen does require you to register for the class first - but then you can ALSO cancel said class and get a refund, provided you drop it within a certain period before the semester starts. In a situation like this, I see it more as a matter of paying a deposit to a potential instructor, which can then be returned should the instructor decide not to take you as a student.

As to terming the 'pay for audition' a scam - well, I guess that is a personal belief. Pyramid scams are often quite blatant about their goals, and about their payments and profits. But, they're still illegal. In this case, I just can't help but feel that there's something wrong with the ethics behind charging auditionees. Maybe I'm just viewing it as the old "sucker born every minute" saw, and revolting from the concept on that point, but I really do view this as wrong. Given that I can guarantee that no matter what they say, every person does NOT have an equal chance of getting picked, I view it as using the less talented but still hopeful as a cash cow to bleed. There's no chance whatsoever they're picked, but they're still encouraged (and charged) the same as others who will have a chance.

If they allowed a refund if requested, I'd feel better about the concept. In that case, if you feel you'd like to 'donate' your audition fee to the organizers, you'd be welcome to. But you wouldn't be required.

M

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: musicmick
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 03:00 AM

I've been a full-time professional folksinger for over forty years. I have learned a few truths about the business.(It aint like I thought it would be) First of all, performing is a business. A business needs to sell its product or service. Selling involves expense. A successful business has to keep selling to survive. I am pleased to pay to showcase (these people are doing me a great service). I am pleased to pay a fee to be considered for showcasing (I am confident that I will be selected. I've been doing this a long time and I know what the judges want to hear). Believe me, when I pay to audition, I do so for sound business reasons. Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sed
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:58 PM

The newfolk event you mention: is that the one held at Kerrville, TX? If so when I appeared on it in 1978 there were no audition fees at all. Several of the 40 of us who were selected to perform later became very successful musicians: Nancy Griffith and Jon Ihms, in particular. Some, like Tim Henderson, who wrote and sang a hilarious satire on Anita Bryant, were just having loads of fun. It was fun to participate but the cost of transportation to the fest. kept me from ever doing it again. Could it be that this pay-to-play phenomena is strong evidence of opportunists finding their way in a rapidly-changing world? Like the poor, the ambitious we will always have with us. Musicians perform for some many different reasons and we refuse to perform for many different reasons. I guess it takes all of us to make the big song sing.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:02 PM

Willie-O didn't use a proper noun at the beginning of his post--so I was not really clear who he was talking about--I suppose that is why the invented proper nouns, in the first place--in any case, the the most charitable thing I can say about the cable TV thing is that your friend has figured out a way to get people to pay for something that people generally are paid to do--more or less the way a "vanity publisher" would--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:48 AM

Hi SeanM. What you describe isn't the situation I had in mind; where I come from, you have to pay an application fee when you apply to enter a university program (as opposed to entering a specific class), and it isn't refundable if you don't get accepted or you decide not to enroll. So it would be a truer analogy to an audition fee.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, musicmic.

Hi M.Ted. I realize that it wasn't obvious which "this thing" Willie-o was talking about; I was just clarifying it FYI. In regards to the cable TV thing, I had another look at the poster and noticed the curious statement that "you don't need to bring your instruments to the audition/workshop." This confirms my suspicion that they're taking anyone who's committed enough to pay the entry fee and show up for the advance gathering. So I think your vanity publisher analogy is very to the point.

I don't think I would ever want to work with a vanity publisher, but I think it's a valid way of doing things for the people who want to do it that way - there may be shady vanity publishers, but nothing inherently shady about the business. In the same way, if there are people willing to buy air time for their music and people willing to sell it, I figure that's fair enough - I just don't want to do it myself.

Having said that, I'm feeling like a wimp right now cause I just had a chat with the organizer and allowed her to continue believing that the only reason I wasn't participating in this thing is that I'm moving town...

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 05:40 PM

When Art Thieme said that charging someone to listen to them was an idea whose time had come, I thought he was just joking, until I found this ad in the paper:

"Do you want some honest and boldfaced feedback on your music? Pro musician will review and evaluate your demo. Send SASE and $20 to: The Listener, [local address]"

Yeah... I'll get that in the mail right away...

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: GUEST,Just Amy
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 07:06 PM

If you are in California, this is illegal.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM

I'm intrigued by Mike Miller's comment, "I am pleased to pay to showcase (these people are doing me a great service). I am pleased to pay a fee to be considered for showcasing (I am confident that I will be selected)."

Certainly there are many contests (not just competitions for showcase slots) for which one must pay an entry fee. In this case, the "prize" is the opportunity to showcase, which may or may not include payment but definitely includes the allure of "exposure". The losers, of course, lose their money but can console themselves with the thought that at least they've had "exposure" to the judges, who might select them in for future showcases.

This is all well and good in a situation in which there are regularly scheduled showcases (especially if one has only to audition once to be considered for several showcase dates) that are part of a prestigious festival such as Kerrville, or that have some prestige (or, at least, a "following") in and of themselves. But in a one-time-only situation such as Marion described last October – a spot on a local cable-TV show – the ethics of the situation are less clear. Local cable stations simply don't have a very high viewership as a whole, so what's the carrot they're dangling? What "great service" are those people doing for you? To whom will you have "exposure" even if you win the contest and appear on the show?

For my own part, I've been taped for a couple of cable-TV spots by arrangement with the local "active figure" but, in this case, the guy would sign up whoever wanted to do it, and the service was free (you had to pay a small price for your own tape of the spot, though, which I thought was fair!). The spots have been aired so I can mention in my press kit that I've appeared on local cable TV. Somehow I don't think that's going to impress anybody, since anybody who wants to can do it for free... but I think people might be even less impressed to learn that a musician had paid to be considered for an appearance on local cable TV.

One final thought, with regard to Mike's comment about his confidence that he would be selected for a showcase for which he had paid to be considered: many entrants who are not selected for such showcases have entered the competitions with the same confidence, and the same level of expertise. Naturally one has to enter such a competition with a positive attitude, or one is simply throwing away one's entry fee. The tough part is losing out to one's "business" competition while retaining a positive "business" relationship with the people to whom one has just lost money!

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 08:41 PM

In 2 words: HEYUL NO!

Reputable folk don't charge. I can understand doing a gig to benefit a worthy cause and taking a reduced fee or doing it for free, but to be *charged* to audition? Especially if the venue is to make money off of you...that just smacks of opportunism and parasitism to me.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:59 AM

"...that just smacks of opportunism and parasitism to me" – especially when you consider that this particular local cable-TV special – "a showcase of the area's open mike denizens" as Marion put it – is for all intents and purposes an advertisement for the local pubs. Clearly, the message being conveyed is "If you want to see and hear these people, come out to the open mike nights at this bar and that bar and the other bar." If I were in the situation, I would not want to pay even if I had won an audition to be on the program, because I wouldn't want to pay any part of the bars' advertising bill for that TV spot.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 05:37 PM

Hear Hear, SharonA!!

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Shonagh
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:48 PM

At the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Dance they expect you to pay for your applications to be handled. Its something mad like £20 but for the traditional music course its even more. I cant remember off the top of my head but its ridiculous! What do they actually do with them? get them in the post them put them in a pile and someone reads them?! And after that you have to pay for your transport to the place to audition, not to mention all the other necessicities like food! Are we made of money or what?! As for paying to audition, thats just plain nonsense! and thats all I have to say on that subject!

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM

There's a new folk festival starting up in Toronto (Winterfolk) and I'm looking into applying for a showcase with my shiny new band. Like the Newfolk thing described above, they charge 20 or 25 dollars to apply to play for free (well, for a weekend pass and some benefits). However, they also say:

Every Submission received will not only be listened to and evaluated carefully - but all submissions (even those not selected to perform at Winterfolk) will receive a personal written critique from veteran musician, music-journalist, and JUNO award winning producer [name I've heard of]. This is a rare opportunity to get your music evaluated by a successful professional musician - which is worth more than the price of the application fee!

I thought this was interesting - it's like they felt they had to have an audition fee, but felt bad about it, so they thought of something to offer the people not accepted.

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sed
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 05:08 PM

Marion and all,

Here's another pay to apply to play for free festival showcase which charges a little less than Kerrville.

Like many other musicians I don't support the pay to play or pay to audition phenomena but if others do then I'll just shrug. Where's the musician's union when you need it? Surely the AFM doesn't approve of this does it? Even if it does I don't.

PS When Peter Yarrow started the NewFolk Concert showcase no fees were charged.

PPS I think of Marshall McLuhan's prediction forty years ago that we would soon have a great deal of leisure time but who would have thought that people in the arts and crafts would be competing to play or display for free? There's always something to hold us back if we'll let it. And there's always some opportunity if we'll only take it but no two people develop themselves the same way. I think of Pete Seeger who raised three children as a "folksinger" during a time when the word had little meaning to the mainstream public. He did it anyway and very creatively, as did several others, still amazingly. And now they are legends.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:17 AM

This past Summer, I answered one of those ubiquitous ads in the back of the Village Voice (free tabloid in New York City) for people interested in doing voiceovers.

The person made sure he invited me up to his "office" after complimenting me on my beautiful voice. [I happen to believe it is, but that's my ego talking.] When I got there, he wasn't in. His assistant was and it was immediately clear that his office was also his studio and rather rundown apartment. There were at least 4 phone lines for different businesses.

The first thing the assistant did was had me a generic script to train with. He also handed me a list of fees. They were: Training--$1000; demo tape--$500; introduction party with agents--$350, etc. In short, it seemed like a rather creaky way of separating people from their money. When he finally arrived, he immediately began to pitch me. My questions were answered evasively.

I put off making a decision that day and made an appointment for the following week. When I arrived the following week, I began with one simple pair of questions: "Do you have a business card? Why was it not out on the table?" He seemed insulted by the question. After he gave me the card, I advised him that, as he was unable or unwilling to give me concrete answers to many of the questions, I had decided to not sign up for now. His answer was that his rates were going up in the immediate future and why did I waste his valuable time on this second interview.

I am glad I was not hungry or stupid enough to invest in his program. Sounded like a con to me.