Need help with sea term: flaked or faked

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM

Gibe. Jybe however you say it has the advantage of being universal Meaning "duck" theres a long lump of wood or metal swinging over at head height.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:16 PM

That's why they call that "large lump" a BOOM.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:42 AM

This thread may be getting unbearably tedious to some but allow me (try and stop me!) to quote some more from THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA with regard to "fake" which they define as "a complete turn of a rope when it has been coiled either on deck or on a drum. When a rope has been properly faked down, it is clear for running, each fake running out without fouling those below it." "Flake" was earlier defined as coils laid out for inspection rather than running.

Linguists might argue that they are the same term, with the "l" having worn away over the last hundred years through hard usage by those who actually sail.;-)

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM

Both are old terms as noted in the OxfordED (my post of long ago). Fake is also allied to the Scottish faik (I made a mistake and called it Scandanavian). No one seems to have the Navy Seamans Manual at hand to find current naval usage but fake is the proper term as far as I can see. All those cds with "flake" will have to be withdrawn and recycled as Lawrence Welk schottisches and performers who use flake will immediately be apprehended and placed in public stocks until they recant.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Melani
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:07 PM

When we fake out our lines, we lay them on the deck in big long zigzags shoved up close next to each other, but not overlapping, so they will be clear and ready to run. When we flake our sails, we fold them in sort of accordian pleats laid on top of each other on top of the boom. The boltrope makes sort of a zigzag, so this leads me to believe that the two terms were originally the same, but which came first I wouldn't try to guess.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Andytwodogs
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:46 PM

Yes, I have heard the term flaked for coiling a rope, a thick rope can be a cable, Iv'e never come across the term faked in this context but(tongue firmly in cheek) the atlantic does separate the languages!

Iv'e not come across it with regard to sails, but have 'brailed them up' and of course reefed them.

Just another bit to throw in

Andy

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From:
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:28 PM

Tha Admiralty manual of seamanship 1964 Volume one uses the term 'fake', and states on pg 121 that the term 'flake' is incorrect for one of the turns of rope when stowed or coiled.

The instructions 'To fake down a rope' are to ensure that a rope which may have to be paid out quickly is faked down in as long fakes as the stowage allows, and falls should be faked down from bight to the end. When faked a rope does not require as many turns as when coiled and it will therefore run out with less chance of becoming snarled. Care should be taken that each bight at the end of a fake is laid under that immediately preceding it to ensure a clear run - that is a clear run from the bight, not the end.

The term is also used for the way hose is stowed in a cradle. The hose is flattened and laid in the cradle in a straight zig zag starting at the hydrant end and ending with that closest to the spray pipe.

There is a little ditty to identify the pipes carrying water of different types and pressures:

Fire mains are red, my love Sea water is blue Fresh water is green, my love, But not so green as you - oo - o -oo - o.

Anne

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM

Andy - As I have always understood matters to brail a sail was to stow a loosefooted sail (ie no boom) up against the gaff or sprit ( see the Thames Barges, or Medway Bawleys. As This stow is conducted by hoisting up rather than furrling down on to the boom. It tended to be used by those commercial boats that relied upon minimum crews.

Traditionaly the Thames barge - upto about 150 ton burden was crewed by two men and a dog.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Cobble
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 07:51 PM

From the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship 1937, word for word:-

FAKE:- A circle or ring formed by coiling a rope.

FLAKE:- To arrange a rope or howser in layers so that it will run clear.

I also was in the RN, dont try to teach your granny to suck eggs :-)

Cobble AB Royal Navy, Thank You.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:34 PM

Coming in rather late, although we use the term 'flake' on the Spirit of New Zealand I always understood the distinction to be as defined by cobble above, 'coiling down' prior to use is 'faking' laying out in long parallel lines for a fast snag free run out is 'flaking'. Nonetheless, I agree with chanteyranger, there is probably no universally 'correct' usage. Go with the term used on the ship you are currently sailing.

On the subject of origins etc, the OED includes in the original (ME) definitions of 'flake' a bundle of parallel threads' which seems to me to be a pretty accurate description of a flaked line.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 12:56 AM

re: "knots per hour", or "knots an hour"

Appears in at least 4 shanties I know of. Stan Hugill said, "Of course it's wrong, but it never stopped sailors from singing it.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Pete M
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:01 AM

Haven't got the 1964 edition Anne, but the 1951 edition Vol 1 page 99 Para heading To flake down a rope (Fig 88) A rope which may have to be paid out quickly should be flaked down in as long flakes as stowage space allows, etc,

Similarly Vol II page 126 Para headed To pay out a heavy hawser. When paying out a heavy hawser it must be kept under control ....It should be flaked in as long fleets as the deck space permits, ... and in Appendix A Glossary, Fake - a coil in a coiled rope.

Just to add some variety, I presume that what Spaw and others have refered to as 'flemish coils' is cheesing down?

Pete M

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:28 AM

Pete M.

Aha! "in as long fleets as the deck space..." Where does that one come from - and is it related to the "fleeting" of capstan bars - the origin of which word has baffled me for a long time?

Regards

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:06 AM

If you "Call all hands to man the capstan." who is going to man the sails? We have always taken liberties with the language, so, flake or fake makes little difference, especially in this day and age.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:19 AM

"Call all hands to man the capstan!" But, Kendall, when the "mudhook's" up and down, don't you then reallocate some crew members to loose the headsails to break free of the bottom?

Looks like we'll never get this ship off the ground, Capt. Kirk. Time to re-boot!

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:23 AM

Calling all hands to man the capstan means, I would guess, that all available manpower not involved in other work should come to the capstan.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:52 AM

There are only so many bars on the capstan, so, with all hands there, it could get quite crowded.

How about, "Call just enough hands.." etc.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Melani
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:18 PM

"Call just enough hands..." doesn't scan as well.

To indulge in a trifle of thread creep on the subject of reefing, I have just read an article in an Aussie magazine called "Windjammer" reviewing a cruise ship called the ROYAL CLIPPER. She is apparently the only five-masted full-rigged ship ever built besides the PREUSSAN, but the resemblence apparently ends there. She is a luxury cruise ship which can carry 200 passengers in great comfort. The editor reprinted parts of the cruise company's press release, largely because the writer was apparently not a sailor and used inaccurate terminology. The editor was not impressed with the ship or the PR guy. The part that caught my attention, however, was the revelation that she has ROLLER REEFING on all sails--the square sails roll up into the yards like window blinds! Shades of Paddy West!

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:49 PM

Love that creep. "Shades of Paddy West" LOL

Can anyone paste in this article so we can have some more "shanty" fodder to scoff.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:43 PM

Ah, now a visit to the remains of the Preussen used to be a regular trip for me when I were a lad and I imagine still is for the youngsters in Dover, if the council or someone hasn't decided that access to the OP's pillboxes etc in the area are dangerous and shut off the path down the cliff.

Sorry Martin can't answer that one. As Wallace Greenslade used to say "I only read this stuff, I don't write it!"

Pete M

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Cobble
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:58 PM

What happened to my Cadburys Flake.

Cobble.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Amos
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:18 PM

Any well organized ship has a watch, quarter and station bill, and the different evolutions such as raising anchor, warping ship, making sail, trimming sail, helm watches etc., are manned by people who know in advance what they have to do. Odd lots such as the cook and the Supercargo are refered to as "idlers" since they don't have action stations for the various evolutions used in normal operations.

A

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Melani
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:39 PM

Charley, I have it on regular old paper and couldn't find it online. It's from a last-year's issue. The ship boasts a crew of 105, only 20 of whom are needed to actually sail the thing, because of all the fancy labor-saving devices. The other 85 crew members spend their time pouring wine, serving meals, and tidying up. From the press release: "All sails are raised, lowered and positioned from the security of the deck by skilled sailors who use power winches...No seaman ever needs to climb the masts to handle sails." They add that two of the lowest sails are handled in the traditional way for demonstration purposes, and that passengers are encouraged to go aloft and help out. Passengers are also encouraged to ascend to the top, wearing safety harness and belayed from below by a crew member, to take advantage of the "all-weather comfortable teak settee" that has been installed there for their comfort while taking in the view. They can also have the steward hoist up a glass of champagne. The running rigging is described as "what gives support to each mast against sideways strain...Other rope halyards at each mast form slanting rope ladders, or ratlines..." At this point the editor says in parentheses, "I am not making any of this up." There is, in fact, a photo of the teak settee.

For the further amusement of Mudcatters, the editor has written a chantey:

The Flash Packet

'Tis of a flash packet--a packet o' fame,
She's a rorty flash packet; ROYAL CLIPPER's her name.
She's bound to the west'ard where salty winds blow,
Bound away in ROYAL CLIPPER to the west'ard we'll go.

Cho: And it's No! Nay! Never!

No more hazing for me!

When I want to go sailing,

In ROYAL CLIPPER I'll be!

We'll go if the lottery one day we might win,
For to be on ROYAL CLIPPER costs plenty of tin.
The cash it do take for to go on a cruise
Would keep an old shellback in a lifetime of booze.

Leave behind your old gansy and tarry old smock,
For the rig of the day is black tie and best frock.
Forget your lobscouse and the cook's cracker hash,
On board ROYAL CLIPPER that passes for gash.

We'll stroll round the deck wearing all our posh togs,
With no watches to keep we can all sleep like logs.
We'll sit all the day just admiring the view,
Taking everything easy--just like the crew!

She's five lofty masts which reach up to the sky,
But the sailors don't go there--you might well ask why.
They've got gadgets and gizmos to do all the work,
And if these do it for you, then why be a b***?

There's hardly no need for to hand, reef or steer,
So the sailors can sit with a glass of cold beer.
They don't stir to reef when it comes to a blow,
'Cos they wind up their sails from the deck far below.

There's no "Man the braces!" and no pulley-haul,
And the work for a sailor is near b****r all.
They're push-button seamen with little to do,
But they wear their striped jerseys and look like a crew.

ROYAL CLIPPER is big, and ROYAL CLIPPER is fast,
With her holds full of toffs and her decks full of masts.
Yes, she's a flash packet; the best that there be,
BUT SHE AIN'T GOT THE GRACE OF A CLIPPER AT SEA!

It seems to be to the tune of "The Wild Rover". Have fun. And by the way, what is the word "b***" that rhymes with "work"? I'm not familiar with Aussie slang.

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 12:27 AM

Thanks for that Melani,

the missing term is presumably 'berk' though why anyone would wish to asterisk this out is beyond me.

Just to totally confuse you, 'Berk' is pronounced as spelt, but is originally a contraction of the rhyming slang "Berkshire/Berkerley hunt" both pronounced "Bark...". Nonetheless a great modern shanty.

I was intrigued by your original posting and did a quick search to try and find anything to add, and found that amongst other delights, this company offers 'clothing optional' cruises and there are pictures to prove it! I must admit the last thing I would want on a sailing ship was anything swinging free to get caught by any passing line. Gives a whole new visualisation to "Irish pennant" though.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Terry K
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 04:59 AM

"no seaman ever needs to climb the masts to handle sails"

- hah, a likely story - given the number of times I've witnessed an unfortunate crewman up the mast releasing the stuck roller furling kit on sailing cruisers, the most recent being just a week ago.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 09:42 AM

A simply amazing find, Melani! Thanks ever so much. It certainly belongs in that fine suite of songs beginning with "Paddy West" and continuing on with Jon Campbell's "Tanqueray Martini-O." Let this thread drift where it may. Lord knows what flotsam we'll run across.;-)

Oh, does anyone have a clue what that other "B-word" which ends in "r"? Of course, "bugger all".

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:39 PM

Nice thread creep, Melani. Just driftin' with the tide..

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From:
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:41 PM

The 1964 MoS is the only one I have - and only Vol one anyway - and personally I say flaked for any vertical stacking of cable or sail 'cos it looks like flakes, and fake down for making the long loops of cable or whatever on a deck or in a locker. I heard faked down from a lifeboat man back in the 60's when describing how the line for a rocket was laid in the box - wonder what whalermen did to their harpoon lines.

Most modern yachties don't use any vocabulary the skipper doesn't know, at least not in his hearing, so terms vary from one vessel to another - and a lot of skippers just bugger off below with a 'get that lot stowed away' and reappear dressed to go ashore for jollies just after the decks are washed down.

I started to sail in the early 70's, so the modern vessels with their GPS and roller reefing isn't doing it the right way at all.

Quite a few chaps didn't think that clothing was required once past the fairway bouy. From what I remember it only took a few moments out in the wind for anything dangling to take in a couple of reefs which greatly reduced the possibility of something vital getting caught up.

Anne

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: bobbi
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 04:48 PM

Tuna fish is FLAKED... I say flaked! tsk!

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Doc
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM

Not all "window shade" sails are of modern design. A few years back I owned a 66-foot, 32-ton steel, pilot-house schooner, designed and built by a Belgian maritime historian as a replica of a nineteenth century French fishing schooner. She was gaff-rigged and had the usual complement of for-and-aft sails, including main and foresail, main-gaff topsail and and fore-gaff topsail, flying jib and staysail, and a small main-topmast staysail called a "fisherman".

But strangely, there was in addition a square sail suspended from a yardarm on the foremast. The yard, of a length twice the beam of the vessel, was situated just slightly above the point at which the gaff met the foremast and the sail was quite large, falling nearly to the deck. The sail was furled vertically, so that it lay not against the yard, but against the mast. It was only flown (with or without the foresail) when going downwind but was emminently convenient for the reason that, having removed the gaskets, it was opened and closed like two wings of a center-mounted drape, with one halyard rigged to pull both halves of the sail head out to their respective ends of the yard, and a second halyard (or "hauldown"), hauling the heads of the sail back in against the mast.

I've not seen anything like it before or since, but my experience with square sails has been more limited than I might have liked. If anyone knows the terminology for that kind of sail and rig I'd be very curious to learn it.

Thanks for the drift in this direction, Melani. This whole topic, which arose from an objection I made during a recording session to radriano about "flaking" the cable, (an objection I now realize was entirely too dogmatic), has generated an incredible amount of information, very pleasantly imparted by a fascinating group of people. Whereas I had taken the position that there was a term of global if not cosmic correctness, it has now been made abundantly clear to me that the nautical terms "fake" and "flake" have changed from ship to ship, captain to captain, navy to navy, and even, as evidenced by quite opposit statements in successive editions of the same naval manual, from time to time. On reflection it seems, as several have said, that safety and expediency will be served as long as it is agreed what terms shall be used on a given ship at a given time, and that in this case the existance of a single "true, traditional meaning" was a figment of my fevered imagination.

Doc

Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 03:19 PM

Nicely said. Now let's cheerily stow this thread below.