Unaccompanied Singers

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

By the way, no offence to a capella singers, its just not my scene.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:21 AM

oh....so it's like that, is it, Villan?

I'll get me coat...

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Graveyard
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:16 AM

There is a tiny pub in a tiny fishing village on the northumberland coast where there is a session on the last Monday of the month. This is mainly attended by musicians, but the organiser does as his job infers, he organises the night. A few tunes from all assembled then a couple of songs then tunes and so on. A great night and you don't have to announce your presence as he asks.
Another folk club on the Northumberland coast hosts pipers guitarists singers, of many genres, and again the organiser mixes them up without any complaint.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:44 AM

Its a tricky one. Some people really do see themselves as curators of the tradition and they read the words of these songs as they sing them. And the point they labour is that they are keeping these songs going. No one else would be singing them - if it wasn't for them. I think this is a valid point of view, and I respect it. They have their clubs - we have ours.

Live and let live, give em a wide berth if you think you'll be bored shitless - as doubtless they are by our sessions.

Anyone got the chords for Last Thing on My Mind....?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:51 AM

As long as you are not getting the cast of the Archers to come and get me Ruth, thats alright.

I'll get me duelling guns LOL To Live and Let Die

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

Watch it - Deeeeyvid keeps a shotgun in the Landie, just in case he happens upon any badgers...

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:56 AM

oooh errr

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Sugwash
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:57 AM

When I go to a sing around I take a guitar, or other instrument, and accompany myself whilst I sing because, well because I can really. I've often suffered from unaccompanied singers recognising a song and launching in with their version of the song and tune, with a thunderous voice trained at shanty sessions, regardless of what I'm singing. I say that only to make the point that it isn't always those with instruments who are insensitive.

I agree that some musicians can be insensitive when they decide to add their instrument to a singer. A good musician will not try to drown out or impose their own interpretation. That should also hold true for singers. We all enjoy the same music in our diverse ways, it saddens when this debate constantly reappears where musicians and singers are put into different camps, each mentally growling at the other. "Oh the singers and musicians should be friends..."

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Drumshanty
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:18 AM

Sugwash, agreed.

I would love to be able to accompany myself on guitar/ukulele/autoharp (yes, I have all three and no, I can't play any) but I can't so I have to do it alone. But I'd far rather have loads of voices joining me in a chorus - there's nothing better than that.

That said, I would like more opportunities to listen to and sing those lang, dreich, muckle sangs that seem to be anathema to a session and even some singarounds. The constant refrain at some of the Scottish festivals I've attended in the past few years has been "Nae dreich" and it's a little bit disheartening if you love these songs. I don't think I am alone in this either; traditional singing weekends such as those at Cullerlie and Collessie are very popular; Cullerlie particularly has been sold out every year that I've attended.

Still, in my ideal world, I'd like to be able to go to a session and listen to some rocking tunes and songs. It's all part of the same thing to me.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: GUEST,Rapunzel
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:44 AM

I am a reasonably confident singer - sometimes unaccompanied, sometimes I have a guitar or dulcimer. I won't let myself be passed over. The worst instance of this that I've experienced happened at a (rather good) singaround at Bishop's Froome while we were on holiday last year. There was a good mixture of accompanied and unaccompanied turns and it was going in sequential order around the room. My husband sang and then the organiser immediately asked the chap on my other side to sing - assumed I was just there to do the driving I suppose. I didn't let him get away with it - I spoke up loudly and sang loudly. Absolutely inexcusable - I hope the organiser learned something from that.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Gulliver
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM

What are "lang, dreich, muckle sangs"? Scottish dialect songs?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM

Good for you Rapunzel!

My wife learned to drive when she was about seventeen. Whereas I didn't learn to drive til I was in my mid twenties, and I was a slow learner. So for about 18 months we had an L plate on the car. We were ALWAYS getting stopped on the motorway - the cops presumed I was giving my wife a driving lesson as we went down the motorway.

L-plate - its got to be the woman!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:29 AM

Gulliver, i think they're long and dreary songs.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Drumshanty
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:52 AM

Dictionary of the Scots Language defines "dreich" as "Extensive; lasting, tedious, tiresome, slow"!

And Muckle Sangs. Mind you, I don't mean the "great ballads" exclusively - or, indeed, those sung in Scots, or Scottish songs. As I said, I love to get swept up in a big chorus, but I've got many songs on my list that I wouldn't sing in a singaround for fear of being thought selfish for not including everyone else.

This is just my experience and not a general point. I'm talking about the vast singarounds I've been to at festivals in Scotland. The very few that I've been to at Whitby or Saltburn have not left me feeling like this.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

From Abuwood Even in Oxford they wanted to diddle diddle over the song....

Where was that? I've seldom ever heard an instrumentalist trying to accompany a singer, and if someone did that to Graham Metcalfe, then he would tell them to shut up.

I prefer a mixed session, but understand the desire for having tunes or singing sessions, I also think instrumentalists should keep silent for singers unless asked to join in.

Incidentally, The Victoria Arms in Old Marston is starting a session for singing on the first Wednesday of the month - instruments will be allowed but tunes will discouraged. This is in addition to the established mixed session, which is a bit tune heavy, held on the third Wednesday of the month. May 7th will be where Claire Lloyd (formerly of the Giles, Metcalfe and Lloyd trio, Folly Bridge), will be saying goodbye before leaving for Spain. So, we have got rid of Graham and now Claire, it's just Ian we need to see that back of now. I suggest Van Dieman's Land for him.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Northerner
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

What I don't like is the people who join in in the chorus with a tune that is different from the one I am singing. Grrr!!!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Saro
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

Rapunzel, many years ago I used to be "the woman who joined in with my husband when he sang" and rarely got asked to sing on my own at festival singarounds. The person who broke the mould was Tom Wilson, who said (after my husband had sung) "well, that was him, now what about one from you" (or words to that effect). It was a real turning point for me. That was about 1980, and as you say, unforgiveable now. Good for you for making things clear to the organiser, and happy singing wherever you are.
Saro
PS What is happening in Oxford to cause all your great singers to flee the country??? The world needs to know...

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

There's an assumption, in some of the posts above, that it is traditional songs that are long and dreary - this is not always the case!

Many of the (usually) unaccompanied 'session hoggers', that I refer to above, often sing 'contemporary' songs (ie. ersatz folk songs). These can be very, very dreary if badly sung. There now seems to be fashion to acknowledge the song's author at the end of each interminable performance. In theory this is a reasonable thing to do, but, if after some of the dismal performances I've heard recently, I was the author of such a song I'm not sure that I would want to be associated with it!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:43 PM

Something I don't get here.
A singer (if they've been singing for any amount of time) should be able to attend a session & size it up after LISTENING for a bit before jumping in with their voice.
Sessions are mostly very tempermental. They have their own personilities & it's up to the attendees to decied how they want to develop their relaitionship within that community.

I attend one session when I'd hardly sing a ballad, long or short. I love ballds but they love to sing along with the songs (short attention span, they want to sing on everything, whatever the reason, I don't know or care, it's there way) so I sing mostly chorus songs or songs that they can harmonize or sing along with or join in with voice or instrument & I love that too. Another session (strickly Irish & mostly instrumental) I attend when called on I'll sing usually something unaccompanied without chorus, they're mostly players not singers, they listen, enjoy but no matter how hard I'll try to get them to join, only seldom does any accompany or sing along.
Each has their own personility & it's up to each singer to ajust to the tone of the session. I'd love to have harmonizing & when I do get it I let it be know that it's been apprecated. There's one fellow at a session I attend that does a great job of it & we now will, when given the nod sing back up with each other but one needs to feel/suss out the session first. Easier done when it's your
regular session, harder when you're traveling about or at a festival go round but their'still a relationship that develops &
that should be acessed before joining in.

I don't run any sessions (thank God) but I'm a regular at a decent few. If I see someone singing along & the group/session leader doesnt catch on I sometimes inform the leader or just outright ask if they'd like to join in & lead something or go over & quitly ask if they sing & if they'd fancy singing one. If they're really good
keep asking them.
I'm very fortunite to be lucky enough to have some fairly decent sessions about me which makes life a whole lot more pleasant.
If you don't fancy a session that does long ballads or whatever the case may be don't go & then get pissed that it wasn't what you hoped for.
As for them that would sing & leave that's a bit like "cut & run", very bad taste & I can't imagine why anyone would even attend if that's all there is to it, no love of the song there.

Barry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM

>>no love of the song there<<

Just the love of themselves

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:06 PM

May I add a bit more
Thanks
As for those that have trouble with others joining in with instruments or voice, get past it. You need to stand on your own & find a way that's comforable for you to let the rest know how you want to sing your own song & it's always the song first even though you're singing to the crowd. Weither it's a cut with your hand across your throat (without missing a beat), a hush with your hands (without skipping a note) or a halt motion with a palm (without off setting a phrase), even if you have to walk over to an accompanist & place your hand across the strings or their guitar, you should be well enough versed in the song you sing to be able to communicate your wishes, if not make it your job to be able to get your wishes across. I realize that it's not always gonna be the way you'd prefere but it'll make your sessions more pleasant. It's your song you have the right to control how it's done. Don't let anyone ride or run rough shod over it. After a while, with practice it can be done in a most unoffensive way & with the slightest of motions.

Barry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:21 PM

' with the slightest of motions.'

shurrup! Or I'll sling shit at yer! only the slightest of motions, but you won't like it!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: maire-aine
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM

If I want to sing something unaccompanied, I make a big production of putting my own guitar aside. Most people have figured out that, if I'm not playing, they shouldn't either. If people still seem to be poised to jump in, I launch into an introduction that explains that people were often encouraged to "give us a song" while the musicians were taking a break and having their "tea". That usually gets the message through. If that doesn't work, a simple "please don't play on this song" makes it crystal clear.

Regards,
Maryanne

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

Saro said PS What is happening in Oxford to cause all your great singers to flee the country??? The world needs to know...
The weather and love. We've still got some left though and no doubt some more will find their voices.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:18 PM

"shurrup! Or I'll sling shit at yer! only the slightest of motions, but you won't like it!"

Weedwittlerunner, A litt;e bit of humour to accompany the motion will go a long way to help.

Barry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:33 PM

I remember the first time I went to Staines folk club, and asked "Is it alright to sing without a guitar?" - it was, though not many people did.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:53 PM

An anwser, of course, is to post session rules. Another is to make admission by invitation only.

Non of these are much help to the musician who, by experience and inclination, likes to be an accompanist.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: GUEST,Western woman
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:56 PM

I've been going to singing sessions for forty years. I love unaccompanied singing and also love a good singer. Sometimes you get both, mostly one or the other. When a good singer sings unaccompanied and sings a good song, bliss happens, and others do listen. Some things annoy me. There was a yearly festival I used to go to where a couple of bad singers hogged the session with very long songs one after the other for the first hour or so. The organisers (in Ireland) decided that the Sean Nos singers were not getting a chance. So they decided to introduce a Gaelic singing hour to start with, then open it up to the rest. It worked a treat, and everyone got a fair chance. Another annoyance, a singer deciding to indulge him or herself with a twenty minute introduction to a song which will usually be longer than the song. I would not describe myself as a good singer, but do enjoy singing and love to get a chance to sing one. Good accompaniment, well worked out with the singer is bound to be good, but only when invited.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:09 PM

Western Woman, spot on about the long intro's. But then there's Vin Garbutt.....

I hurt myself laughing at his intro to 'Flora on the Banks of the Dee', but I can't remember the song.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:35 PM

the "joy" of people slowing the choruses down

And down, and down - sometimes people seem to decide the ideal speed is a bit slower than he's singing it, and stick to that idea even if you try and slow down to meet them. The time that happened to me was also the time I'd put a song into 3:4 - or rather, I'd put the verses in 3:4; the session decided collectively that the refrain should stay in 4:4, thanks very much. (And not quite so fast, while you're about it.)

Great session otherwise, mind. Those that can harmonise certainly should, in my view.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:28 PM

My New Song

I learned to sing a brand new song
Memorised the words on every page
It sounded so good in the bathroom
And now the world would be my stage

I practised hard, both night and day
I Learned it well and felt so proud
But all my dreams would turn to ashes
When I went along to that singaround

As I went into that crowded room
I felt wound up like a coiled spring
But when I'd sat down in that circle
I did a very stupid thing

I sat in the only empty place
Where the turn to sing had just moved past
Now I'd have to sit around for hours
Oh woe is me ! Oh, damn and blast

It started off with a gruesome murder ballad
Which ended on the gallows high
But not till after 42 verses
When it was done, I heaved a sigh

Then some pissed up clown
Started a sea shanty
With a drunken chorus nine times or ten
By the time he'd reached the Bay of Biscay
He forgot the words, and had to start again

Then an intense young man with a Takamine
To bare his soul to all, he'd written a song so deep
All about a "failed relationship"
(I think I must have fallen asleep)

And several more painful dirges later
When things had sunk to an all time low
From under a seat appears a melodeon
Just wind him up and off he'll go!

Then a very large Scottish lady did an introduction,
That was even longer than the song,
"Oh wo-an't ye gan to the heels laddie,"
Another half an hour and we moved on

And then this bloke waltzes in and sits down
He arrived at least two hours after me
He must be up the organiser's backside
'Cos he gets to sing almost straight away

And once again it was a marathon performance
As despondency filled up the room
Till someone did a Leonard Cohen song
Just to lighten up the doom and gloom

It was my turn at last after an eternity!
I said "oh, is it me?", took a deep breath
Now is my chance for retribution
I'll make sure I get my pound of flesh


Chorus:

I'll make this song go on forever
Stretch every syllable and line
I'll get my own back on those bastards
That kept me waiting all that time
I'll go so slow, oh so slow, oh so very slow..

I'll sing so loud I'll give them earache
Let them know my time has come
They can forget about the beer break
As no-one's moving till I'm done

And as for those who carry on talking
Or crunching crisps at them I'll glare
And as for going to the toilet
I'll just say "don't you bloody dare"

Chorus

I'll make this song go on forever
Stress every syllable and line
I'll get my own back on those bastards
That kept me waiting all that time
I'll go so, and still more slow .. etc

(to the tune of "El Dorado" by Graham Miles)

Love it all though, but prefer a good old Heinz 57!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singers
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:25 PM

Very good, Acorn4, I think I was at that singaround - I'd have been the one that did the Leonard Cohen song. Hallelujah; Hallelujah....