Songwriting - what do you need?

Subject: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

I was thinking recently, what are the three most important things you need to write a song? I know what I consider the three most important things you need to write songs cos I've written a few, but I'd be interested to hear other peoples views. I'll ley you know what my three are after we (hopefully) get a few more opinions!

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM

Whatever the "three most important things" are, they would certainly not be enough to write a good song, in my view. You need also the other 7 (or 27, more like). But for what it's worth, I believe that three very important things for songwriting in folk music are:

an interesting story to tell (or viewpoint to impart)
a lyrical and/or musical "hook"
an interesting and catchy tune

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM

I back what George just posted.But,for myself,all I know is that if I can't write,for whatever reason,then I don't function very well in other areas either.If I were to start out using guidelines I would never get started!I love to follow a song,wherever it's going.Give it a push,a nudge here and there,ride it a little,tame it sometimes,then let it go.Writing is one thing,singing it,is another.I'm going to get lost if I carry on.Just do what you do and see if you would like to go see someone doing what you do.
I'll get me banjo!
Good luck anyway.
David

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:29 AM

How about these:

- time
- peace and quiet
- the gift of being able to produce good quality songs

I don't seem to get much of the first two, and I don't seem to have the third one, which George (above) has in abundance!

:-)

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:07 AM

For me .....inspiration is the first requisite and then I go with what George said....lot of respect for George....great songs.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Drumshanty
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:48 AM

Do you need a "calling" (for want of a better word)?

I've been singing for a while, mainly traditional, mainly unaccompanied. During the past year or so, I've been caught off guard by people asking me, "So when you going to write your own stuff then?" It had never occurred to me before - I thought that it would be something you did because you couldn't not do it (am I making any sense here?)

Of course, now that the idea has entered my head, it's left me with a wondering itch...

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:49 AM

It helps to have:

something to say
a reason for saying it

A

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:56 AM

First you need an idea for a song.

Then you create a story around that idea.

If push comes to shove you can steal the music.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:01 AM

OK, I'll have another turn:

- a pen or pencil
- some paper
- the gift of being able to produce good quality songs

:-)

Interesting point about stealing the tune, Bert. I found it was easier to start by writing parodies of existing songs (or at least, a new lyric to an existing tune), so you can just concentrate on the lyrics. Then, having written one, you should be able to write a different tune to fit your new words - allowing you to concentrate on the tune this time. It's a bit like replacing the blade of an axe, then replacing the handle. You still end up with a new axe at the end!

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:04 AM

More often than not it's a phrase, a loose thread. I pull on it and see what comes. Or like following a path, and seeing where it leads.

There are songs where I've set out to write about something and worked it out, or to tell a story I know in advance, but not that often, and probably not the best songs.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:06 AM

I pulled on a loose thread once, and my trousers fell down. Never again.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Hawker
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:22 AM

For me, I have to be stirred to write a song, I guesss this is what one calls inspiration, a good tune helps make a song a good song and a pen and paper or a keyboard and screen are essential as I have a rotten memory, also I carry a mini voice recorder with me, as often a tune or a set of words just come to me, often when out and I will have forgotten it by the time I get home.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:38 AM

I would recommend "Tunesmith", Jimmy Webb's book on songwriting.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: LesB
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:50 AM

Talent, & then the last 3 issues of "Living Tradition" where Tom Bliss does an excellent article on the subject.(It can also be found on his website)Tom Bliss.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:52 AM

Writing songs, like singing 'em, is more graft than gift, Scrump. The only way to get good at it is to do lots of it. I find the following helps:

1) A good grounding in the type of song you want to write. I sang mainly traditional songs for years. People now say they find it hard to believe some of the stuff I write isn't traditional. Immerse yourself in the style you want to produce.

2) A human story. I can't write songs from lists of dates and statistics about historical events, but a human story often triggers a song - especially a story which, while rooted in history, still has a resonance today.

3) Time. Be prepared to open up to the song. Sometimes I have to work at a line, trying different rhymes until something fits, sometimes it just seems to come ready made, but you've got to let it happen. Too often trivia like earning a living gets in the way.

The most important thing, however, is to believe you can do it. Put that lot together, and with time, you can build yourself a 'gift of being able to produce good quality songs'

Andrew

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:57 AM

Anyone can write a song if they choose to. The songs I've written are quite varied, but mostly I like to tell a story with my songs. So one important thing to have is a good story to tell. Once I have the story, I try to find an interesting angle to the story. Sometimes this means placing myself (the narrator) as a character who participated in the event. In other instances, I write the song from the viewpoint of a person who might have actually been there. And thirdly, the song must have a decent melody in order for it to be receive approval from the audiences where it is sung.

As George mentioned above, there are many more things that a song needs besides these three. I believe it is also important for a singer/songwriter to vary the type of songs that he writes. When performing your own material you should have a good variety of songs to sing so your audience doesn't get bored. So write ballads and love songs as well as humorous ditties. Have some of your songs written for accapella. Write songs in different keys, different chord progressions, different time signatures, etc. Don't write the same song over and over.

Best wishes,
Mike

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

Some good advice here. I agree Crane Driver, you have to put the effort in to get good results. Having the idea or 'inspiration' for a song is only the start - Edison's "genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration" could apply to songwriting as well as anything else.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 11:31 AM

Something to say
Brief, visual words
rhythm and melody to fit the words

O.K. Maybe that's cheating including rhythm and melody as one. Just having a good melody isn't enough. Songs have rhythm. They have words. They say something (hopefully.) There's four essntial requirements right there. Remove any one and you don't have much of a song.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: CapriUni
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:10 PM

From Scrump:

- a pen or pencil
- some paper

I have to disagree with you, there. Some of the best songs in the folk tradition were composed by people who never learned to read or write.

...But if you don't have pen or pencil, you should have a good memory, so you can sing the song over and over to yourself, to work out the kinks (and this is a good tip for any kind of writing; even when I'm writing non-musical prose, I often catch weaknesses by reading it aloud and hearing where the glitches are.)

Here are my three:

Something important to say (even if it's just important emotionally, like: "Damn! I'm Happy!").
An ability to get to the pith.
And a good ear for how the rhythm of language matches to the rhythm of a melody (I'm still working on this last one).

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:54 PM

I don't think you need something important to say. How important was it for Stephen Foster to say how long the racetrack was? Or for us to know which horse he bet on? But it is a song that will last forever. mg

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: CapriUni
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM

Well, that's what I mean about "Emotionally important" it betting and losing on a race is an emotionally important event -- otherwise, people at racetracks wouldn't cheer so loud as the horses approach the finish line.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: breezy
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:26 PM

Talent
talent
Talent

to write and express oneself clearly

A good grounding in Greek seems a pre-requisite

Thats why I admire good writers and do not indulge my self

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:06 PM

Start with talent. The rest will follow.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:08 PM

Me, I need something that tickles my urge to write - could be a phrase, could be an image, could be the whole idea or it could just be a chord progression.   And then I need some private space! I hate to think I can be overheard while I tinker around with the song and get cross with myself when it's not going right.

Time is important, too. Sometimes the best songs come all of a piece and in a rush, but sometimes they take time to percolate through and then emerge much later, fully formed and ready to go.

Anne

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:14 PM

A good ear.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

I cant better what George Papavgeris has said: message, melody and musical hook

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM

OK...froggy went a courting...was that something important to say? But yet it has lasted forever. mg

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:37 PM

I teach songwriting occasionally to my guitar students. Here are three fundamentals.

1) You need to have a specific topic idea or story. In general
you need to stick to one topic per song. The most important idea (one line) is called 'the hook' and it is placed usually at the beginning or end of the chorus.

2) You need to understand song forms and poetry forms. The structure of the song is divided into groups (measures) of four. Most song parts are 8 measures, 12 measures or 16 measures. Most songs have A) an intro B) verse C) chorus D) a bridge E) solo F) and outro or ending. There are many forms; with ABAB form A is the verse and B the chorus. Poetry forms include rhyme and meter/cadence. Usually I teach writing in group of four lines with rhyme on 13-24 or 12-34.

3) You need to know how to create an interesting melody to the words (or vice versa). Many successful song have poor melodies but because they are sung by successful artists they are hit songs. The main problems are static or uninteresting melodies.

Richie

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 06:56 PM

"Froggy" was important because it was a story to amuse--probably to amuse children. Possibly "telling" would be a better word. That's why I limited my contribution up thread to "something to say" and "a reason to say it".

Once that reason grows to a certain level the process becomes ineluctable.


A

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,Songwriter
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:38 PM

You need to write lots and lots of songs, of which 99% will end up in the trash-can.

It is a craft, like any other, and success comes with practice.

You only learn it by doing it, and by doing it lots and lots.

Eventually, out of all the dross, you will find the occasional diamond.

FWIW, I find that a glass of red wine aids the creative process.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:09 PM

To comment on last post. Writing songs helps. Knowing how to write then writing is the best. To do this you join writing groups or work with songwriters/teachers. Most larger cities have songwriting rounds/ clinics.

If you want to play classical guitar you don't just start playing the guitar. You get a teacher.

Once you get the info you can apply it.

Richie

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: CapriUni
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:58 PM

Froggy went a-courtin' tells the story of ambition, pride, courage, cowardice, love and death.

All the actors are wearing masks that look like cute animals. But the story it tells is important.

I stand by my first requirement. If you want to say something (anything) well (wether or not it's in the form of a song), you need to believe your own reason for saying it.

Whether anyone else besides your own shadow agrees with you that it's important doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:48 PM

I don't buy that you have to tell a story or that it has to make sense. We have song fragments that we like and remember that we have no idea what they are..well I do anyway. I also don't think you have to have the idea first and then develop it. I think you can start with the words and shake them a bit to make more sense if you must. How does oobla dee oobla da tell a story? It paints a a little picture of a point in time and is another probably great song..we love to sing it, and I don't know barely any more words than that..but can't say that there is a story. I also doubt they sat down and pondered how to describe a day at the market or whatever. The words came to them and they wrote them down.. mg

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:54 PM

I agree. Many songs just come from figuring out the title!

Richie

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:15 PM

Hi,

This song was written while I was sleeping. I woke up and wrote it down. I've since finished it. This is what I got that morning 0n 12-19-06. Don't know where it came from (probably a telepathed by aliens!).

CHRISTMAS ON THE MOON

It was Christmas on the moon today,
Nobody seemed to care,
There were no decorations,
No reindeer in the air.
There were no Lords a-leaping,
No partridge in a pear tree,
It was Christmas on the Moon today,
But I just didn't see.

It was Christmas on the moon today,
They forgot the Christmas tree.
There was no figgy puddin',
No blinking lights to see.
I guess someday we'll find a way
To decorate the moon,
It was Christmas on the Moon today,
Too bad it came so soon.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:24 PM

What a great thread. I just love the way that different things work for different people. Which is just as well otherwise we'd all end up writing the same song.

I find that pencil and paper doesn't work too well for me. I've tried it, but I find that the first line tends to get set in concrete even if it isn't very good. Then the second line follows that and things get progressively worse.

So I write my songs in my mind, often by the time I get to the third line, I find I've forgotten the first. I assume then, that it wasn't memorable enough 'cos I've already forgotten it.

So if you do use pencil and paper I'd like to suggest a very important rule that I used to teach my programming students.

"One of the most important tools that you have is the waste basket!"

One of the things that I learned in engineering design is, that you must be prepared to throw away your first idea if it isn't working. It is a very difficult thing to do to throw away your "first born idea" but it is essential that you be honest with yourself when it comes to judging the value of your work.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: iancarterb
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:29 PM

Drumshanty, it usually becomes a COMPLETE song precisely because you can't not do it- it drags you around by the ear and pencil until it's done. And I'm with GUEST,mg (who merits attention for her own stupendous songwriting succes)on not needing any reason other than the whim to write, if for no other reason than that it isn't ultimately up to the writer to decide if it's any good, or at any rate if it has any staying power- they're not always the same. If it pleases anyone else, it probably was a successful communication of something or other. Some tic or sudden idea or observation may begin what turns out to be a complete work. It IS a good idea to write stuff down, because the idea may not come to fruition for ages, especially if you ahve a day job!   carter b

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:58 PM

I've found that different writers, composers and artists all have different processes for their art and that there is no one model that will work for everyone. Si Kahn used to think that the most important think he needed for songwriting was his old pickup, in which he wrote his first song, and the subsequent several dozen. When the truck finally died he went and found the most beat up replacement he could find, because he wasn't sure he'd ever be able to write without that truck.

I know songwriters who spend weeks, months or years on a song. I rarely spend more than an hour. I know folks who pay careful attention to "hooks" - I have never paid the slightest attention to that sort of thing, though I don't deny that "hooks" are there in some of my songs. It's an intuitive process for me; others write much more intentionally. Both are equally valid processes.

Do you need something important to say? I don't know - Townes Van Zandt once said about "She Came and She Touched Me" that the song was written completely phonetically; he always assumed the meaning would just take care of itself. On the other hand, a song that says something important can be a wonderful thing to listen to (or dreadful - and I don't sing THOSE songs in public).

I certainly agree that having a good ear is always important. Songs are seldom created out of thin air; each of us stands in a tradition whether we realize it or not. Being attuned to a particular tradition or mix of traditions helps a great deal.

For me, one of the most important aspects of my development as a songwriter was my growing craftsmanship and taste - early songs tended to be high in what I now term "the dippy factor" and rhymes were forced. I recognize that lots of commercially successful songs are like that, but if I wanted to write successful songs I wouldn't be in folk music.

Once I wrote to a songwriter friend that I should maybe write a particular kind of song. I got a letter back in three words: "Don't plot. Write."

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,Ingrid Frances Stark
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM

Paper and a pen, and practice.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 12:51 AM

There was something that Dan Shatz was getting at that I think is more important than any of the other stuff, and that is that you have to figure out how to write in a way that is true to yourself--and you have to hold on to it.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 10:28 AM

...Right, back to me again! crikey I only started this thread yesterday and this is the first time I've managed to get back here to look at the replies! well here is what I think and it's more or less the same as George Papavgeris, (not that I disagree with what anyone else says either!AND I'm not saying there is any right or wrong way but this is just MY opinion)

1. You need a subject that interests you enough to want to put pen to paper, something you believe in.

2. You need to be able to condense whatever it is you have to say into a form that tells the story but is not so long that it gets boring.

3. You then need to be able to make the story rhyme

These are the three things I was thinking of when I started this thread, I must admit George puts these in order a bit more succinctly than me, you'll notice I haven't mentioned the tune! which is obviously very important, with me the tune just seems to form itself as I'm writing the words without any great conscious effort. WEll there you are! that's my view and it's certainly been interesting seeing everyone elses, MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 11:09 AM

Occasionally, I will set myself up with a project song. For example, I once decided to write a song where every line would have the same rhyme. It was a silly song about a young man who went to work on for a shipping line and fell in love with the owner's daughter. Another time I wanted to write a song with as many 7th chords as I could manage. The song ended up including g7th, e7th, a7th, d7th, c7th, and d#7th. This was a song about a fellow walking through the woods on snowshoes. My point is that you can write songs about anything, so have some fun with your writing and find ways to stretch your skills.

Mike

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 11:13 AM

talent, while not absolutely necessary, is a big help.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

Rhymes? Some good songs dispense with this mostly or entirely. Often enough people don't notice. (Deportees, for example).

I don't think there are any rules for how to write songs, none that you can't find exceptions to, anyway. What there are instead are people's experience of the way they do it - and even there I'm pretty sure it's only some of the time they actually do it the same way.

Story - there are plenty of songs where there's no story, or where the hints of a story would be filled in by different listeners in a completely different way, and that's where the song gets its strength.

What do you need for songwriting is a bit like "what do you need for cooking".

Mind you, that wasn't a complaint about the thread topic, it's coming up with some very interesting responses.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM

Just put my finger on what had been niggling ....there's a difference between songwriting and then taking a song to a wider audience. Yes, you can write a song about anything you like and it can be as much nonsense as you want or as deeply therapeutic as you can stand it. However to sing that song to an audience (and want some respect for it) I think there should be a reason for your choice of material.
So, songwriting, what do you need? Not a lot, really. To be considered a songwriter by others - that's when you'll need talent, luck and all that stuff.

Anne

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 01:35 PM

Tabster,

There's times that I've written a song for myself, and I didn't think it would appeal to a general audience. But have found that other people love it.

So as Alaska Mike says "You can write songs about anything".

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:23 PM

Bert, of course you're right - I was merely trying to make the point that it doesn't always follow because you've written a song that it could or should be sung to anyone else. Sometimes writing a song is just that, but choosing to perform your own material is something that takes a lot more skill and judgement. There are an awful lot of mediocre songs out there and I've listened to some fairly boring ones - I owe it to my craft and skill not to add to that list myself. Working out which songs I want to present to others is a large part of my job as a songwriter and sometimes far more difficult than the task of writing the songs in the first place. There are no rules about what you can/should/ought to write about, and maybe some of the songs I discard might be considered good by some people, but (speaking here as someone who is booked as a songwriter and therefore my repertoire is 100% my own material) songs have still got to earn their way into my gig list. Maybe because they have a chorus - maybe because they change the mood - maybe because there's a local or contemporary reference. But I've come across a lot of singers who seem not to discriminate between the relative values of their own songs (no one on this list that I know of, to be sure!) and I wanted to make the distinction between writing and performing songs.

Anyone can write a song about anything. Not all songs are worth performing!

Anne

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,gleaner
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 10:14 PM

I. Some inspiration--not necessarily a prostrating experience. It could be something that strikes you as you're scatting ad libitum or noodling around your instrument. It could be an idea that you decide to put into music.

II. The acceptance that your initial inspiration is not an inviolable tablet of stone. Revision can do wonders, and get you more inspired.

III. Some way to set down or remember what you've come up with. I've heard more than one great songwriter say that, If it's not set down right away, it's gone.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 11:50 PM

...it doesn't always follow because you've written a song that it could or should be sung to anyone else....

I've written songs like that too. But I don't tell anyone.

Subject: RE: Songwriting - what do you need?
From: GUEST,ptsn1
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 09:12 AM

i agree with george.
but the three have to mesh just right.http://www.myspace.com/wanabwriter