Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Berkeley Chanteyman
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 11:15 PM

I'm interested in publishing my band's recording of this and would appreciate any clarification regarding the copyright.

I searched the online copyright database here:

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=Shawneetown&Search_Code=TALL&PID=py6zcCF6HwZYsqVKZL_w9krAhdq1&SEQ=20171116224732&CNT=25&HIST=1

I didn't find any reference to Dillon Bustin, though there are entries for Dalglish, Larsen & Sutherland -- but on the latter it's not clear whether they claim copyright for the lyrics or just (p) on the recording for this song. (Disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer.)

I tried contacting Dillon Bustin-- I was able to find him on Facebook and tried PM'ing him but that was a while ago and I have as of yet received no reply.

I'd be interested in hearing from "stallion," above, in particular, since he seems to have had some experience with this but I would also welcome any additional feedback.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:04 AM

Hi, Chanteyman - there's a message above from Sandy Paton (click), the late owner of Folk-Legacy Records. Sandy says that Dalglish, Larsen & Sutherland learned the song from Dillon Bustin, who made up at least part of the song.
I'm hoping Dillon will respond to your Facebook message or mine and give us definitive information.

Here's the URL for Dillon Bustin's Website:

http://www.mcdstudioshosting.com/dillonbustin/index.html

There's contact information there.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 06:42 AM

There's a fine recording of Shawneetown on an album by the Australian group, The Roaring Forties. The album has the great name, Life of Brine, and was released in 2008.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Chanteyman
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 11:26 PM

Thanks Joe! Me too.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Chanteyman
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 11:41 PM

Now I remember why I tried contacting Dillon Bustin via Facebook Messenger-- the email address given on his website, [e-mail], doesn't work.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Chanteyman
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 04:37 PM

Well, I just got off of the phone with Mr. Dillon Bustin. I've arranged to send him the royalties for The Dogwatch Nautical band's use of Shawneetown on our upcoming CD.

The email contact information on his website is obsolete but the phone number worked. I should have tried that sooner, duh! :-)

Of interest to Mudcatters is this part of our discussion, Dillon actually wrote ALL of the verses except ONE, not the other way around. Unfortunately, I didn't have that info in time to update the liner notes on our album but I promised to do that here. (Don't ask me which verse is the one he didn't write-- I neglected to ask. Maybe I'll get to that when I send him our CD.)

Cheers,
Steve Aultman

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:53 PM

Thanks a lot, Steve. I'm glad we finally have this clarified. I credited the song to Dillon Bustin when I sang it last week. Glad I was correct.

Joe

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:57 PM

There's this and other versions of the song on You Tube.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:54 AM

searching for beech oar will get a few results. But Guest's grammatical explanation is very appealing.
I say this many times: having two meanings in a song (or three if we include pole) is perfectly reasonable, and makes the song connect with more people - who take the meaning they think of first, usually. We build a virtual image in our minds, it is what humans do. The song is as much art as it is a fossil. Given it's authorship.
Comparing historic/logic interpretation, it only has value in a discussion like this.

I like the song, and revel in the discussion. Win Win!

Subject: ADD Version: Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,talithamac
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 04:48 PM

When I recorded this in 1986, with Dillon Bustin singing on the chorus, he gave me words to a couple of extra verses. This is my version:

SHAWNEETOWN
(Dillon Bustin)

Vs 1        Some row up but we float down
        Way down the Ohio to Shawneetown

Cho        And it’s hard on the beech oar
        It moves too slow
        Way down to Shawneetown
        On the Ohio        

Vs 2        Now the current’s got her and we’ll take up the slack
        We’ll float her down to Shawneetown and bushwack her back

Vs 3        The whiskey’s in the jug, boys, the wheat is in the sack
        We’ll trade ‘em down in Shawneetown and bring the rock salt back

Vs 4        Got a wife in Louisville, one in New Orleans
        When I get to Shawneetown gonna see my Indian queen

Vs 5        Them hoop-pole boys talk loud and long
        Round as a barrel and they’re twice as strong

Vs 6        I like to fight, I can take my knocks
        But not like last Saturday night at the Cave-in-Rock

Vs 7        The water’s mighty warm, boys, the air is cold and dank
        And the cursed fog it gets so thick you cannot see the bank

Rpt Vs 1

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 12:05 PM

Here's a clear map of the Ohio River with the states labelled.
not near New Orleans

[Funny how they don't label the states on the SOUTH bank of the Ohio.
Too banjo-ridden, maybe?]

Throughout this discussion, bear in mind that these rivers used to be much wider and much slower than they are today. Today's rivers have been engineered to handle big boats, mostly barges.

As you can see, the Ohio starts at Pennsylvania's western border and ends at the southern tip of Illinois, where it joins the Mississippi. (Where Huck and Jim got lost in the fog.) For other information, see Sandy Paton's post from May, 1999.

Shawnee was in Illinoi where the Wabash River comes in from the north.    The boatmen in our song are taking whiskey and wheat from Pennsylvania and Ohio to Shawnee and will take rock salt from Shawnee back upriver. So New Orleans, the Natchez Trace and the Mississippi don't come into this journey. Our boatman will get to see his wife in Louisville, but not the other one.

It never seems to occur to these guys that their various "wives" could have had various "husbands", depending on who's in town and who's slogging their way back north. Must have been complicated.

Given how hard it was to go back upstream, it makes sense to have shorter journeys such as this. By the way, I don't think there were many beaches, because if there had been, they would have been using draft animals, not humans, to go upstream.

Oddly, the actual Wabash Cannonball, the train takes good hoboes to Heaven, didn't run near the Wabash River. And that reminds me:

   Oh the moonlight's fair tonight along the Wabash.
   Through the fields there comes the breath of new-mown hay.
   Through the sycamores the candle lights are gleaming
   on the banks of the Wabash, far away.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 12:39 PM

Banjo News Letter November 2012 Shawneetown By Tim Jumper
https://banjonews.com/2012-11/shawneetown.html Shawneetown

When I first heard the song a few years ago I assumed it was as old as it sounded. Only recently did I learn of its contemporary (circa 1996) genesis, the details of which Dillon related to me via e-mail:

“My original sources for Shawneetown were two fragments included in Leland DeWitt Baldwin’s “The Keelboat Age on Western Waters” (Pittsburg, 1969)... Baldwin quotes James Hall’s “Letters from the West, Containing Sketches of Scenery, Manners, and Customs” (London, 1828):

Some rows up, but we rows down
All the way to Shawneetown,
Pull away – pull away!

In his endnote Baldwin further quotes Neville’s The Last of the Boatmen in a compilation edited by James Hall, “Western Souvenir”(1828), p. 114:

Hard upon the beach oar! –
She moves too slow! –
All the way to Shawneetown.
Long while ago.

These fragments became my first verse and chorus:

Some row up,
But we float down,
Way down the Ohio,
To Shawneetown.

Hard on the beach oar,
She moves too slow,
Way down to Shawneetown
On the Ohio.”

Dillon wrote several additional verses evocative of the early 19th century keelboat era when Shawneetown, Illinois was an important frontier trading center, and his catchy pentatonic melody stands worthy of comparison with the best of the prolific Mr. or Mrs. Anon. What he has given us is a new American folk song; so when you sing it for other folks, be sure to tell them who wrote it.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 12:28 PM

Thanks for that complete and helpful statement, Henry. I think it wraps up for good the story of the composition of 'Shawneetown.'

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 12:26 AM

RE: This seems to be the main thread for James Hall (above and link to Lighter's post.) He did not become “Judge” Hall until 1824, so unlikely to publish as such in 1821. Otherwise identical text ––

“Nor did the amusements of the night end here. The adventure of the whipping post had exhilarated the spirits of the crew, who now seating themselves in groups on the bank, actuated, no doubt, by the genial influence of "the chaste cold moon,” began to chant their rude ditties of "bold young fellers," and "ladies gay;" an accomplishment in which some of them had acquired a tolerable proficiency, and which they appeared to value more highly than their rough natures would seem to indicate. Here was a fund of entertainment for me. It is amusing to see poetry dressed in rags, and limping upon crutches. Dignified and lovely as she is in her robes of majesty, she becomes the most quaint, ingenious entertaining little imp imaginable, when she condescends to play the hoyden; and I assure you, that I adored her with ten-fold ardour, when I beheld her versatility, and saw her, like a good republican, conforming herself to the company in which she happened to be thrown. She has indeed risen wonderfully in my opinion, in which of late years she had rather sunk, in consequence of the suspicious company she had kept––a virago with Lord Byron, a voluptuary with Anacreon Moore, and with Monk Lewis, a wrinkled old hag. She has again appeared in her native integrity; I have seen her in the robes of nature, and heard her in the innocency of her heart. To the admirers of the simplicity of Wordsworth, to those who prefer the naked effusions of the heart, to the meretricious ornaments of fancy, I present the following beautiful specimen verbatim, as it flowed from the lips of an Ohio boatman:

        Its oh! as I was a wal-king out,
        One morning in July,
        I met a maid, who ax'd my trade,––
        Says I “I'll tell you presently,”
        “Miss, I'll tell you presently!”

I challenge the admirers of that celebrated poet to point out, in all his works, or in those of his disciples, a single verse which is more simple, more descriptive, or which contains so much matter in so small a compass.

In the following amatory stanza, the lover betrays his tenderness with great delicacy:

        Here's to you, and all the rest,
        And likewise her that I love best;
        As she's not here to take a part,
        I'll drink her health with all my heart.”

What a manly spirit breathes through each line, where the poet pays an honest tribute to poverty, sympathises with the forlorn wight, too often the object of ridicule, who lives in " single blessedness," and satirises the cupidity of the world, all in the compass of a single verse, as thus:

        “Here's to those that have old clothes,
        And never a wife to mend 'em;
        A plague on those that have half joes,
        And hav'nt a heart to spend 'em.”

There was one ballad particularly, of a very pathetic nature, which I regret I have forgotten, as the singer observed very feelingly, that "he set more store to it, than all the rest." It began thus:

        "Oh! love was the 'casion of my downfal,
        I wish I had'nt never loved none at all!
        Oh! love was 'casion of my misery,
        Now I am bound, but once I was free!"

But I have no more room for criticism. These brief extracts will convince you that I have not decided in favour of the “River Melodies,” on slight grounds. By some future opportunity, I will send you some more of them; in the mean while I bid you good night, in the words which the rowers are even now sounding in my ears as they tug at the oar:

        Some rows up, but we row down,
        All the way to Shawneetown,
        Pull away-pull away!”
[Letters from the West, Letter III, April 18th, Oliver Oldschool*, The Port Folio, 1821]

*more to follow.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 12:34 AM

*Oliver Oldschool was the pseudonym for a collection of authors writing for Joseph Dennie (1768–1812), founding editor of the The Port Folio. This, to include Dennie himself and Sarah Ewing Hall (1761–1830), mother of:

John Elihu Hall (1783–1829), who succeeded Dennie as owner/editor of the Port Folio and
Harrison Hall, publisher and contributor to the Port Folio and;
James Hall (1793–1868), briefly resident of Shawneetown and co-owner/editor of the local newspaper. He lost his first re-election to the bench and by 1827 was listed as Illinois State Treasurer. And, little doubt, the Oldschool in question.

Nautical Trivia: Army Lt. James Hall served “TDY” as a gunnery officer on the second Enterprise (Kearny) for five months of the Second Barbary War. Most bios have him resigning that commission to return to law studies but he may have left under some duress after first returning to Army duties.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 01:14 AM

More on Mitford:
“...In a few minutes afterwards, we observed their keel wheeling in the current, the gigantic form of Mike* bestriding the large steering oar, and the others arranging themselves in their places in front of the cabin, that extended nearly the whole length of the boat, covering merchandize of immense value. As they left the shore, they gave the Indian yell: and broke out into a sort of unconnected chorus, commencing with ––
        “Hard upon the beech oar!
        She moves too slow!
        All the way to Shawneetown,
        Long while ago.”
In a few moments the boat “took the chute” of Letart's Falls**, and disappeared behind the point with the rapidity of an Arabian courser.”
[Last of the Boatmen, Lights and Shadows of American Life, Vol.I, Mitford ed., 1832]
Mary Russell Mitford (1787–1855)

*Mitford's boatman is none other than Mike Fink (c.1770/1780–c.1823). [wiki]
**Letart's Falls is a bit downriver of Shawneetown & Cave-in-Rock. Frontier trapper Jimmy Stewart gets mugged at the latter in How the West was Won.

In the same year as Mitford, Judge Hall, owner-writer-janitor of the Illinois Monthly Magazine, created the fictional singing Canadian boatman/voyageur Michel de Coucy.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 08:37 AM

Of note:

Cleveland Herald (Apr. 30, 1845):

"Every body has heard of Mike Fink, the famous keel-boat captain.... 'Long time ago,' when Mike was on a voyage 'all the way to Shawneetown,' with a 'bully boat and a bully crew,' he found himself compelled to lay up a short time at Louisville...."


Walnut Valley Times (El Dorado, Kans.) (Oct. 1, 1887):

"Transportation on the Ohio before steamboats was on keel boats. ...The hands...usually sang in passing a town. All joined in a chorus, 'All the way to Shawneetown, row, boys, row. All the way to Shawneetown, row, boy, row."

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 10:48 AM

The Western Messenger I (Nov., 1835):

“For a time we feared we should have to pause upon the rude boat-songs and wild choruses of Mike Fink, and his redoubtable companions: ‘Hard upon the beach oar,’ ‘All the way to Shawneetown,’ ‘Row! Row! On the bright ‘Hio,’ &c.”

Henry Brown, The History of Illinois (N.Y.: J. Winchester, 1844):

“There [is] something, even at this day, on which the imagination delights to linger, in ‘All the way to Shawneetown; long time ago.’*… *The chorus of a favorite boat-song.”


That was nearly 180 years ago! And there's no record of the old tune!

So what's the continuing fascination with the words, "on which the imagination delights to linger," which many writers have quoted in print into the 21st century.

There's the prosody (aw...aw...aw...o), the exoticism of "All the way to Shawneetown" and the nostalgia of "Long time ago."

For me it's also the mental connection of the image with Disney's "Davy Crockett Meets Mike Fink" and "Davy Crockett and the River Pirates."

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 09:13 PM

No music... yet. Our lyrical world is sure getting smaller though. Mitford's ultimate source for Mike Fink was Judge James Hall's The Western Souvenir for 1829 (Cincinnati.) Haven't located the original but, The Last of the Boatmen chapter with Shawneetown and beach oar (with an “a”) appears in: The Critic: A Weekly Review of Literature, Fine Arts, and the Drama, 10 January 1829:

The literary contents of this, as of the other Annuals, are furnished by different writers, among whom the editor has performed the largest share. The prose portion possesses greater merit than the poetical. We copy the opening lines, by James Hall, which are a favorable sample of the latter; and the sketch, entitled, The Last of the Boatmen, which bears the signature N. is perhaps as interesting as any prose selection which we could make….

N=Morgan Neville (1783-1839) per Beginnings of Literary Culture in the Ohio Valley: Historical and Biographical Sketches, Venable, 1891.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 Feb 23 - 10:22 PM

Not sure where this fits in. Field & Hall were two-of-a-kind.

“There was water enough on the “Falls”; it was a bright day in spring, and at an early hour, all hands at their posts, Mike was guiding his clean and trim built “keel,” the Mary––still adhered to the name, and it had always been a charm to him, he said––through the rapids, below Louisville. There was not much peril in the passage, at the moment, and the exhileration was only of the pleasant kind.

“That's like a lady!” cried Mike, as, under the bold and skillful guidance of his sweeping stern oar, his craft a moment yielded to a powerful eddy, and then drew out again with a graceful curve.

“See how she puts her feet out! Dances like a fairy, by gracious!”

                “As we go as we go
                Down the O-hi-o,
                There's a tight place at Louisville,
                You know boys, know.”

“Jabe Knuckles!” shouted Mike, “one of them Philadelphy noospapers you've got sorted away, tells about a York feller that's got a steam fixin' to take boats up rivers without hand, hoss, or hawser! I reckon he'll never try 'ginst this water, eh?””
[Field, Last of the Boatmen, Half Horse Half Alligator: The Growth of the Mike Fink Legend, Blair, Meine eds., 1956]
Published in serial form by Field's own St. Louis Reveille c.1842
Joseph M. Field (1810–1856)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shawneetown
From: John Minear
Date: 15 May 24 - 07:37 PM

I thought that I knew this song. I have worked on it and with any number of times over the past decades. And now I am once again looking at it and enjoying it. But this time around I am looking more closely. And today I began to wonder if my basic assumptions about it were wrong. I have been doing a close study of both the text and the historical context. Something has been bothering me. This all may turn out to be very obvious to everyone else, but when you make a false assumption it can really anchor you in the wrong place. My question was./is: How can you bushwack a Flatboat back up river? Did that ever happen? The historical answer and the practical answer is simply “No”. Flatboats were one-way boats - down river. At the end of the trip thery were sold for lumber and dismantled. I read somewhere that much of New Orleans was built out of dismantled flatboats. No one ever tried to haul a flatboat back upstream. Thia is obvious on the Mississippi and probably also on the Ohio. So is the song just historically wrong talking about “hauling the rock salt back” (up stream) and “bushwacking back”… ? Or have I been wrong in my basic assumption all along? Is it the case that this song never was about flatboats, but about keelboats? Where did I get the idea that it was a flatboat song? In going back over all of the notes I have and all of the Mudcat discussions, I could only find one reference to the song being about flatboats. Someone said that Jessica Simpson (Martin Simpson’s wife) who knew Dillon Bustin, said it was about flatboats. I don’t even remember ever seeing this reference before. But I have assumed all along that it was about flatboats. Given the internal evidence of the song text and the external historical evidence of the context, that is simply impossible. It can’t be about flatboats. It has to be about keelboats. But there is no mention of keelboats (or flatboats per se) in the song. Just “floating” down the river. There is no mention “poling” the boat. Just “hard on the beach/beech oar.” What is the role of the oar? Is this about “pushboats”.   There is a known historical “Pushboat Song”, which is a keelboat song. Some of the verses are very similar to “Shawneetown” and it is likely that Bustin was familiar with this traditional song. Was his song always a keelboat song? Why is it never discussed in those terms? In the Mudcat discussions, it is not discussed in either flatboat or keelboat terms as such. Strange. Everything mentioned in the song could apply to a keelboat. Not everything can be applied to a flatboat. I think it is a keelboat song. This may be obvious to everyone else. It has taken me a long time to reach this realization. I suppose the only way to settle this question once and for all is to ask Dillon Bustin himself. Is he still with us? I remember going to him many years ago to ask him about the verse about the “hooppole boys” and clearing up that mystery. For now I am simply going to ask Mudcat, is this a flatboat song or a keelboat song? I look forward to lifting the “cursed fog”.    John Minear

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 May 24 - 11:43 PM

“Jabe Knuckles!” shouted Mike*, “one of them Philadelphy noospapers you've got sorted away, tells about a York feller that's got a steam fixin' to take boats up rivers without hand, hoss, or hawser! I reckon he'll never try 'ginst this water, eh?””
[Field, Last of the Boatmen, Half Horse Half Alligator: The Growth of the Mike Fink Legend, Blair, Meine eds., 1956]
Published in serial form by Field's own St. Louis Reveille c.1842

The old Mississippi is long time gone. It has been civil engineered from end-to-end. Back in the day…

Much of the upper river turned into an ice road in the winter. By late fall it was drying out. You'd be walking alongside if there was enough draft to float your hull at all.

The lower river meandered all over the place every spring flood. Once it calmed down a tad one could actually drift upstream on the back eddies by crossing from bank-to-bank to keep on the inside of the 'ox bows.' Regardless, that was where all the upstream bushwhacking, cordelling, poling, rowing, sailing &c&c happened. Not head-on against the mainstream.

*Fwiw: Mike Fink has been dubbed king of the keelboaters.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: John Minear
Date: 16 May 24 - 09:49 AM

But what kind of boats are we talking about? Surely not the flatboats.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 May 24 - 03:55 PM

Who we?

c.1824: The original 'lyric' was the work of Cincinnati, Ohio attorney and author Morgan Lafayette Neville in The Last of the Boatmen which is about Mike Fink and Ohio keel boats. There was no tune to go with.

1941: Some bit of Neville's prose & Mike Fink folklore found its way into Leland D. Baldwin's The Keelboat Age on Western Waters.

c.1970: Per the usual sources, Dillon Bustin picked up a copy of Baldwin. Those boats could be anything Dillon Bustin, or his listeners, imagine(d) them to be.

Fwiw: The generally accepted minimum for “flatbottom” is: no keel, stern or stem posts. A long, narrow, northern European style punt will do as well as most other upstream friendly hull types. A broad beamed barge with two sweeps and a steering oar… maybe not so much.

Fwiw2: Shawneetown is smack dab in the middle of the Illinois Salines. No need to schlep all the way south to New Orleans and back again.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: John Minear
Date: 16 May 24 - 05:59 PM

"We" are all of the participants in this thread over the last 24 years or so, living and dead, who have been interested in this song by Bustin, and his actual lyrics and I would assume their historical context. Reading through these old threads, one can see that there has been some confusion about these things over the years. My question is pretty simple. What kind of boat and boatmen do we think Bustin had in mind when he wrote this song? And is the imagined scenario consistent with historical fact. And is the song coherent. I am assuming that there are a number of technical differences that define a "flatboat" as distinct from a "keelboat", some of which you have pointed out. I appreciate the references. But given what little I know, some of the verses don't seem consistent with the historical data on flatboats. The "bushwhacking back" one especially. And why would you be hauling salt back upriver in a flatboat? Doesn't really make sense. I have focused my attention over the years on the flatboats and don't really know much about keelboats, except that they might more closely fit the sense of Bustin's lyrics. I am curious about his assumptions and the assumptions of the various discussions on this thread. Are "we"/"they" talking about flatboats or keelboats? I thin it matters for the sense and integrity of the song. It presents itself as a "historical" song.   It's a wonderful song to sing and has lasted for some time now. But is it historically accurate and if so what is it talking about? And also why is there no real discussion in these threads about the kind of boats involved?

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 24 - 06:51 PM

I moved messages around to boil all this down into two threads, designating this as the Origins thread and the other as the supplement. I hope it makes more sense this way. I sure love this song. Bev Praver and I drove through this area in October 2024. That added a lot to my appreciation of this song.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 17 May 24 - 08:24 PM

The starting point isn't Lloyds or the U.S. Bureaus of Commerce/Shipping; it's a 200 year old bit of pop entertainment not unlike the song itself. Stitch counting historical accuracy was never on offer.

Speculation (imagination) is part of the fun for some listeners. It's a sure-fire fun killer for some others. A lot artists will struggle to recall exactly what they were thinking line-by-line if they haven't looked at them in 40-50 years.

The whiskey's in the jug, boys, the wheat is in the sack.
We'll trade 'em down to Shawneetown and we'll bring the rock salt back.

Today that's 240 river miles, one-way, from Shawneetown to Louisville. 380 miles to Cincinnati. One could do the shorter round trip more than once per month… in season… weather permitting… &c &c. A keelboat is the most often mentioned type but a large canoe, dugout, pirogue or periagua &c&c would not raise an eyebrow. The 1820s 'original' is already lamenting the advent of steam on that stretch of the river.

Alas the pedant, the Ohio River salt trade was an evaporation process (brine)... a fine paste, brittle as chalk or sandstone when dry, but not commercial “rock salt.”


I got a wife in Louisville and one in New Orleans,
And when I get to Shawneetown gonna see my Indian Queen.

Your show-biz trope alarm should be gonging. A girl in every port & debauching the natives has been pop entertainment sailor stock-in-trade since Odysseus & Calypso.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: John Minear
Date: 18 May 24 - 11:33 AM

Trying to get a sense of the kind of craft imagined in this song is not seeking "stitch counting historical accuracy". And of course "speculation" is a form of "imagination". But my questions are not designed to be a "sure fire fun killer", And yes the question of the kind of "salt" involved in the river trade is a legitimate question. And my questions have to do with whether it makes any sense to imagine/speculate/talk about flatboats making "round trips" from Shawneetown to Louisville or Cincinnati. And so, when singing this song and enjoying it, are we thinking about flatboats or keelboats (or other river craft that can go up stream)? And why is this concern not a part of our discussion over the years. And to refresh my memory I would like to see the 200 year old "starting point" pop song that you are referring to. Can you give us a copy of it? More than just a reference. I do not recall seeing anything like this as such in the various discussions on "Shawneetown". Are you referring to the "Pushboat Song" or "Going Down to Cairo" or something else?

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 May 24 - 05:45 PM

John: Bustin's older lyric comes from one Neville's five verses, as republished by James Hall (aka: Oliver Oldschool.) I don't believe we've recovered the "original-original" just yet. See above at: 06 Jan 23 - 12:26AM. Again, there was never any music to go with. Your call if that's a song or a short story with/about a song.

fwiw: The only vessel mentioned in Neville/Hall is Mike Fink's Mary. Supposed to be a keelboat but, there are no surviving drawings or plans of her and she's not mentioned anywhere in the lyrics. Assuming she, and he, was ever really real to begin with that is.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: John Minear
Date: 19 May 24 - 11:02 AM

Okay, Phil, I have taken your good advice and bushwhacked my way back upstream in this thread and re-read all of your notes and the rest of the thread as well. I think the cursed fog may be lifting., with a sip of whiskey from the jug (I like Elijah Craig) and maybe just a pinch of that good flaky salt (I am partial to Malden Salt and use it all of the time).   I appreciate the work that you and Lighter did to make these sources available. I have seen some of thisi material before but I never quite got it into focus and I was missing some of the important historical context, especially as regards “Mike Fink”. I must have been about 12 when Davy Crockett floated down the Ohio with him and that all very much still affects my own imagination. I can see now how Bustin appropriated the two early verses for the beginning of his song. And while I don’t know what he was imagining, surely he also knew abou the Mike Fink connection. And that would strongly suggest that he had Keelboats in mind. I think it gets confusing trying to deal with two distinct historical time frames, or maybe even three: the early history, the time when Bustin wrote his song, and perhaps the ongoing times of whenever the song continues to be sung (and often modified). It’s all history but some distinctions are helpful. I appreciate the way you do this. So, I will begin to devote more of my attention to keelboating as I continue to think abut this song. I am imagining more regional commerce, on the Ohio and its tributaries, up and down, back and forth, rather than the long-haul trading down to New Orleans. John

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: John Minear
Date: 19 May 24 - 11:08 AM

I have just noticed the obituary for Dick Swain. I wanted to say it was from the singing of Dick Swain at Augusta (Elkins WV) one summer that I learned "Shawneetown." The world of good song and important information has lost another significant person.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 May 24 - 11:50 AM

John Minear, Maldon Salt is a good choice! It is harvested in the English town of Maldon, Essex. World-renowned, Maldon’s distinctive pyramid salt flakes have been skilfully made using the same traditional artisan methods since 1882. Thames sailing barges are still moored along the waterfront at Maldon and the Thames Sailing Barge Trust is based there.

The last Thames barge to trade entirely under sail was the Everard-built Cambria owned by 'Bob' Roberts, who sailed the Cambria for more than twenty years. https://intheboatshed.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/p8-EDS-spring-2103_LO-RES.pdf; Who was Alfred William ‘Bob’ Roberts?

For the folk world, he was a proper sailing barge skipper, traditional singer and melodeon player. A charismatic performer, he appeared at EFDSS festivals at the Albert Hall in the 1950s, made a series of LPs, and sang at many folk clubs. His contracts to perform always specified he would appear ‘winds and tides permitting’.

Bob’s daughter, Anne, remembers her father singing deep sea sailors’ shanties learned when he was a young man, and recalls how he later came to learn songs associated with inshore fishing and barge
crews, and also rural songs from old boys in the pubs around the Essex coast and particularly Pin Mill, where he lived for many years with his first wife and young family.

A big change came in the early 1950s when Bob met folk song collector Peter Kennedy. This led to Bob becoming involved with Kennedy’s BBC Archive recordings and the influential 1950s radio series As I Roved Out, and also with the American collector Alan Lomax.

Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 02 Oct 24 - 05:25 PM

Me (see above) -- The lower river meandered all over the place every spring flood. Once it calmed down a tad one could actually drift upstream on the back eddies by crossing from bank-to-bank to keep on the inside of the 'ox bows.' Regardless, that was where all the upstream bushwhacking, cordelling, poling, rowing, sailing &c&c happened. Not head-on against the mainstream.

1834 UK take:
“THE TIDE OR CURRENT.
In river-rowing, when the tide or current is with the rower, a learner should in general take the middle of the stream. In rowing with the tide, however, water-men generally cut off the points, in order to keep a straight course.

When when the tide or current is against the rower, he should take the sides, preferring that side on which, owing to the course of the river, the current is least.––As there is an eddy under the points, watermen generally, when rounding them, shoot the water to the next point, and so on.” [p.78]

Dover-to-Dunkirk:
“SEA ROWING
...The distances run in this way are very great. We have known four men, in a short galley, row thirty miles in four hours, namely, from Dover to eight miles below Calais, or abreast of Gravelines, on the opposite coast.” [p.81]
[British Manly Exercises, Walker, 1834]