 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Justice in the USA
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:19 PM "Vengeance is mine" says the Lord. How come all these other guys want to get in on the act?
I can imagine wanting to take my vengeance on someone who had injured someone I loved. But having that vengeance delegated to some hired killer in a prison and delayed for 10 or 15 or 20 years - I cannot envisage how would in any way make me feel better or help me recover.
I can even imagine myself into a state of mind in which, as a legislator I'd feel I had no alternative but to have someone executed. But that doesn't seem to be how it is either. I was looking at part of one of those Presidential debates, and saw how, when George Bush talked about having some killers executed he almost seemed to be giggling with glee. Jesus weeps! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: mousethief Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:24 PM McG: careful with the Bible quotes. The same Lord also said, "whosoever sheddeth the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed." (Genesis 9:6)
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:55 PM Well, Alex, I also seem to recal him mentioning a universal prohibition of killing to Moses, no? That's the problem with that old Judeao-Christian God- no consistency! ;-) God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son." Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on!" God said "No!", Abe said "What?!" God said "You can do anything you want, Abe, But the next time you see me comin', you better run!" (with apologies to R. Zimmerman) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: mousethief Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:56 PM Actually, Greg, the prohibition was against murder (the KJV translation is in error here), not killing as such.
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:02 PM Not being up on my Aramaic, Hebrew & Greek, I'll have to pass on that one, Alex. Ditto a long debate on the difference. But dead is still dead. Best, Greg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: mousethief Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM Greg, you must be against abortion too, then?
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:13 PM Sheesh, Alex- No, but please let's not open THAT bodacious can of worms, OK? Not on the Forum. Let's just say that depends on one's definition of "life"& take this to PM's if you want to go further. Best, Greg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: mousethief Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM See, it's not just the judeo-Christian God who can be inconsistent. That's my only point.
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:26 PM Never meant to suggest otherwise! After all, we made him/her in our own image.*BG* I'm outa here-dinner calls. Best, Greg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: mousethief Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:37 PM If "dead is dead" then it doesn't really matter what your definition of life is. But as you say this is probably better done in some other arena.
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:43 PM Grab - I understand how you feel. I'm sure you and I are among "the many" whose wish is to obey the law, live decent lives and hurt no one. However, I feel that "the few" are not the people who break under whatever strain of everyday life in a corrupt money-poisoned society and commit small crimes on an individual basis. My concept of "the few" is the people who commit huge social and financial crimes that cause millions to suffer injustice and inequality. "The few" who are already rich beyond conception...but still WANT MORE. So...we can agree to disagree, while both being among "the many". I still do not care for capital punishment, but I would apply it in wartime...to looters, rapists....soldiers and individuals who take deliberate advantage of social chaos. Then and probably only then, I would not hesitate to use capital punishment. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:50 PM Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes.
I think it was Walt Whitman said that, or something like that. Maybe it was God speaking in the person of Walt Whitman. ? But I must confess to myself having a foolish consistency in such matters. Killing people is wrong. No buts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:55 PM Mousethief - yeah, you're right about that Bible quote...by what if it means that the person who sheds blood will have their own blood shed through the workings of karma and reincarnation...not necessarily this year or this life...but in a later life. Bingo! No escape for the wicked. The very early Christian church did believe in reincarnation. Later, in Constantinople, an assembly of bishops decided to expunge that particular teaching from the Christian religion. So, vengeance IS in fact, the business of "the Lord" (or the Lady), then, not of the state and not of you and me. Our business is to effectively protect other people from the violent, not to take vengeance upon the perpetrator. You can stop violence without executing people. An alternate point of view to consider... - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Midchuck Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:11 PM Hey, Liberals oppose capital punishment because it's wrong to kill people, but oppose limiting the right to abortion. Conservatives oppose abortion because it's wrong to kill people, but are all in favor of capital punishment. Since neither has standing to accuse the other of inconsistency, there's no problem. Peter. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:46 PM Hi, Doug... Actually I don't watch Star Trek anymore at all, but I will never forget the magnificent social ideals that were put forth on a mere TV show...a gem in a sea of televised dreck was Star Trek Next Generation. You can thank Gene Rodenberry (now deceased) and Patrick Stewart for the class and vision of that particular show. Art is the conscience of society. Midchuck - LOL!!! Ain't that the truth about liberals and conservatives. That's why I am willing to give time to both, although I am a socialist, on the whole. The Walt Whitman quote says it all, so I am pasting it in yet again... Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes. We make the rules up as we go along...and just when we thought we had the ABSOLUTE DEFINITIVE ANSWER....Whap!...life hands us a surprise and we remake our own rules. It's happened to all of us, I hope. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library) Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:54 PM I'm sure if your banker said you had no money in your account and you complained that you had some yesterday and had made no withdrawals since then, and your banker said, "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes" -- you wouldn't buy it. It's a coward's philosophy. It's much harder to hold to one's principles across the board. Which is why so few do it. I am not big on capital punishment, because we cannot be certain we have the right guy (I'd say person but the death penalty in the USA is 99% male), and because it's such a final step, and because it's a horrible thing to place on the conscience of the executioner(s), among other reasons. But I am not opposed to the concept in and of itself. Little Hawk: what evidence do you have for belief in reincarnation among Christians (not Gnostics) in the early years of the church? I've heard this claim but never seen anybody present anything like convincing historical evidence for it.
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:46 PM This is thread drift, but so what?
That's what you could call a specious analogy, mouse. If you wanted a more plausible analogy involving a bank manager you could have him (or her) giving a loan to someone with a small business one day, and then refusing a kloan to what looked like a similar customer the following day.
Pretty well any opinion you give is to some extent a simplified an approximation of what you really believe, and that's where the contradictions come from. You say "I can't stand modern music" (or whatever), and then the next day you find yourself listening to some, and liking it. The truth was that you couldn't stand the modern music you'd heard before, but this was different.
Or maybe it was that the music had jarred with the mood you had that day, and that mood has passed, and the simplification was that when you said "I" you meant "the I that is standing here today, which won't be quite the same as the I that'll be here tomorrow, because things will have happened to change me".
Actually it's not thread drift, because that's the same as Fionn was saying anout how the person who gets killed all those years later really isn't the same person as the person who committed the crime (even assuming that they actually got the right person). In a way it's like killing a son to get vengeance on the father - and of course, that is what happens in some cultures. The rest of the world sees this as shocking and barbaric. That's how capital punishment as practised in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, and China and the USA and a few other countries seems to a lot of people already. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: DougR Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:35 AM I guess, Alex, Greg is not ready to discuss his position on abortion in the forum. At least that's what I gather from his remarks. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: GUEST,Greg F.-remote location Date: 26 Oct 00 - 07:30 AM For once, you're right Doug. Think we all ought to pass on that one on THIS forum as provocation & avoid the flame war. OK? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Grab Date: 26 Oct 00 - 09:25 AM LH, I have no problems with agreeing to disagree. But it won't stop me disagreeing some more. :-) I still do not care for capital punishment, but I would apply it in wartime...to looters, rapists....soldiers and individuals who take deliberate advantage of social chaos. Then and probably only then, I would not hesitate to use capital punishment. Social chaos is not just wartime - consider riots in any city (LA riots in the US, Bradford in the UK, football hooligans from any country in Europe), or any inner-city environment where the social system is in tatters. Some cities are practically a war in themselves! ...the people who break under whatever strain of everyday life in a corrupt money-poisoned society and commit small crimes on an individual basis. That's the point - murder and rape are never "small" crimes. The absolute need for society is to get those responsible away to somewhere where they can't kill, and then sort them out. If they're not likely to do it again, then fine. If there's some therapy or councilling or drugs which will help them, then fine. But if you're just going to let them out and wait for them to shoot someone else, then this is unjustifiable - the right of a single innocent person to life outweighs all the rights of every criminal. Someone (I don't know who) once said "the Constitution is not a suicide pact". I would accord a convicted criminal all the rights possible (I believe the state of most jails in most countries is shocking), but I absolutely will not grant them the right to kill again. And I don't believe there's any point in leaving them to rot in a cell for 80 years - this is true vengeance. You're right that there are also "the few" who are money-rich but scruple-poor. If they rip someone off, they'll be jailed too. But theft, even on a grand scale, is not the same as murder. Theft may impinge on your quality of life, but murder stops your life, full stop. Grab. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Kim C Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:06 AM I'm pro-choice, pro-death penalty, I'd kill someone in self-defense if I had to, and I eat and wear animals. So there. However, I wish more people felt like they could choose life, and I am not opposed to replacing the death penalty with something else. The problem is that people who commit crimes have no respect for anyone's life, including their own, so they don't care if they die for their crimes. They don't fear the punishment. I don't know what the answer is. If I did, I'd be so filthy rich that we ALL could quit our jobs and bang on the drum all day. :) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: InOBU Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:22 AM Hi Sisters and Brothers I have been up driving for 30 hours, so I am a little punchy, however, just dropped by to post a lyric request and saw this, and had to make a point and a suggestion. Point, an inordinate number of innocent people have been exicuted in the US, including Willie Franis, who was exicuted twice! survived his first electrocution to declaire God had recognised his innocence, the Sup Ct. then said Florida could try again, the did, and he died, and then was found innocent, there a too many cases like that, death is irreversable and there is no justification for the state making that kind of error, and as long as there is a death penality suck errors will happen, and the suggestion. Aparthide in Africa and Philladelphia was ended by well organised boycotts. How bout a boycott of every nation and state that murders under the color of law? Sounds good to me! Night all, Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:22 PM "the few" who are money-rich but scruple-poor. If they rip someone off, they'll be jailed too.
You must be joking! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: mousethief Date: 26 Oct 00 - 02:24 PM And if they kill somebody, they'll be executed too. Just like OJ Simpson. Um, well, never mind.
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: DougR Date: 26 Oct 00 - 02:53 PM Suits me fine, Greg F., I wish abortion had never become a political issue myself. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM Mousethief - Ah, dear, dear...how words lead us astray. They just don't say enough. Okay...McGrath has explained what I meant in saying that we all contradict ourselves at times...I was NOT speaking of conscious lies, but of the fact that on one day..or at one point in your life...you may see something radically differently than you do on another day. Thus you may in time contradict a position you formerly held...and in all honesty. If this hasn't happened to someone, then they are either a robot...or they are seriously mentally ill...like some religious fanatics. For instance, it's easy to hate a specific group of people (because your parents did...), and then actually meet some of them...and end up really liking them. Point taken? The fact that we are able to change our minds and contradict ourselves is a damn good thing. Reincarnation in the Christian religion - Mousethief, there are numerous highly regarded spiritual books that talk about this...but I suspect that you would give those books as short a shrift as the common atheist does to a book like...the Bible. Thus, I hesitate to list their titles, but I'm giving it some thought. Remember that the Church of Rome (and Constantinople) did everything in its power to destroy utterly all people who did not hold to its official line, and then ask yourself why the teaching is not found in the conventional sources of that church...and the other churches that split off from it after the Protestant Reformation, by which time the teaching of reincarnation was entirely forgotten by virtually everyone alive in Christendom. There are more people on the face of the Earth who believe in reincarnation right now (I mean among the Earth's consciously religious people, that is...not including atheists)...than who don't. Debate that one. The greatest number of them are in Asia. Grab - by "small crimes" I meant crimes that affect one person or a few people directly. By "large crimes" I meant social and financial and governmental policies which cause misery to millions of people. I did not mean that the "small crimes" were small in a moral sense, only in a sense of how many people they directly affect at the time. I don't like the "small criminals" any more than you do, but I regard them mostly as a mere symptom of a far larger problem...which is social injustice on a huge scale, all over this world. The USA in this sense is a more unjust society than most of the countries in Western Europe, and than Canada as well. I don't say that to say the USA is "bad" or that Americans are "bad", just to say maybe they are not as aware of conditions beyond their own borders as they could be. Live in Canada for a year and see. (I am assuming you're American...if I am mistaken...then these points are not for you but for those who are American). The US media doesn't tell its people about social progress in other countries. It just tells them about Arab terrorists and sensational stuff like that....which is the exception, not the rule, across this world. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:37 PM Got that right, InoBu - execution is legalized murder...just as war is. If you're gonna do it, then you might as well just admit it's murder, and start proving why it had to be done... There are circumstances under which I would commit this form of murder...like if I was defending my village from charging soldiers, for example...but I would try to avoid it if at all possible. To enshrine it as the premeditated right of a state is cold-blooded, pointless, and barbaric. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:52 PM f.Mud.i here is a hyperlink to the Oklahoma Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: GUEST,mousethief (at my kid's house) Date: 26 Oct 00 - 11:16 PM LH: Okay, if you mean that we might change our minds, or grow into or out of certain ideas, then I agree with you completely. Moving on to the next topic... I agree that there were certain people who believed in reincarnation in the early years of the Christian church, but I also believe they were (as far as the church was concerned) heretics and theoretical outsiders, and they were booted out of the church for that reason. (St. Paul, in one of his letters, says it is appointed for human beings to live just once; this has always been interpreted by the Fathers and Mothers of the ancient church as ruling out reincarnation as a Christian doctrine.) But being booted out of the church is not the same thing as being "destroyed." I really don't know about the early church trying to "destroy" people who believed in reincarnation -- the Stoa in Athens, for example, continued to teach reincarnation well into the 6th century. Saying that reincarnation is not a Christian belief is not the same thing as saying people who are not Christians have no right to believe it. Truly the medieval church went overboard in persecuting "heretics" (whether real or imagined) and for that all Christendom must feel shame and sorrow. As you say both Rome and Constantinople have sinned in this area. If it helps any (probably not), I am sorry this happened and wish it hadn't. I will agree with you that a huge number of people (I don't know enough to say whether it's a majority or not) in the world believe in reincarnation. Of course as you yourself would admit, metaphysical truth is not a matter of voting. If reincarnation is true, then it's true whether or not anybody believes in it, and if it's not true, it's not true, even if 99-44/100% of the world's population believes in it. Of course we won't really know for sure (each of us personally, I mean) until we die. So where does that leave us? Rather far afield from the topic of the thread, I'm afraid, but hey, that's life. Anyway, we shall have to agree to disagree, I think. You believe in reincarnation, and that's okay, and I don't, and that's okay too. "Some of my best friends are reincarnationists" so to speak.
And the Christians and the Pagans
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: InOBU Date: 27 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM Hey Little Hawk, Kola: I completely agree with you as to defending your village. I now have the honnor of being a peacemaker in an Algonquin nation's court by reason of helping to defend a reservation against a violent incursion by state police while I was in law school. There is a difference between defending your families lives at a moment when reason does not prevail, and the cold after the fact murder by a state. All the best, Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: GUEST,Fionn (in Co Down) Date: 27 Oct 00 - 09:28 AM OK, those of you holding out for vengeance. Here in the UK a toddler was tormented and killed a few years ago - a crime that made a phenomenal impact at the time, and rightly so. His murderers turned out to be two kids aged 10, one of whom had had a particularly disturbed life (though maybe not as bad as Sexton's.) A few months younger, and they'd have been below the age for criminal responsibility. They were sentenced to eight years each. These sentences did not match the popular mood, and were increased to 15 years by a government minister. Some people thought even 15 years was not enough. But the right of politicians to interfere at all was challenged, and now Britain's senior (criminal law) judge has just reset the sentence at eight years. It means they are likely to be free next February. The victim's mother is distraught. She has my sympathy. But no-one disputes that the prisoners have shown enormous remorse; they have been highly responsive to counselling, education etc, and are no longer any sort of threat to society. If they stayed detained, they would move into the adult prison population. What chance they would emerge from that experience as law-abiding citizens? I think that, against the odds (because the British system is no better than anyone else's), we've got here the best possible outcome from a deeply distressing case. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Troll Date: 27 Oct 00 - 09:56 AM Maybe we should have a system like the old Viking weregild, where the killer has to pay the family a certain amount in recompense They could have to work at a government-monitored job until the money was paid back. Then they would go free with a new skill to help them make an honest living.(Here it comes) So lets hear it; how much is a member of YOUR family worth? troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Skeptic Date: 27 Oct 00 - 10:18 AM In keeping with the tone of Little Hawks (and others) assertion I always found the following to sort of capture the essence of justice in America. The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. - Anatole France. And while there is a sort of blindness in America when it comes to crime/justice in other countries (unless it's sensational), the blindness isn't limited to the United States. I have friends in Rotterdam who are very proud of the low murder rate in the Netherlands and very concerned about the high rate in the US. They have less to say about the relatively high rate of violent crime in the Netherlands or the illegal drug issue. It does seem that the United States (more so than most of the industrialized nations) treats crime only as the disease and ignores the possibility that it can be a a symptom. So our treatment of the problem falls under the "treat appendicitis with aspirin" school, versus dealing with causes. I am nobly ignoring reincarnation except to mention that it can be a effective social control to limit crime. Regards John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Oct 00 - 03:05 PM Mousethief - I agree with your point that it doesn't matter how MANY |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Oct 00 - 03:07 PM Mousethief - I agree with your point that it doesn't matter how MANY people believe in a spiritual notion, but only if it is TRUE. Well said. I believe in reincarnation, actually, not because of any specific religious teaching, but because of direct experiences I have had. It's a long story, and I'm not gonna tell it here. I've got no problem with people who don't believe in it, but I do. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library) Date: 28 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM LH: There you go. I respect your choice of beliefs, and trust you to respect mine. There really is no reason for people with different faiths or beliefs to have to fight and not get along. But I think this sort of "getting along" is the sort of thing that will happen from the bottom up between people of differing religions, etc., and probably not from the top down. Just like justice. Until the little people (like you and me) start to demand justice, and I mean a lot of little people not just a couple of million, the talking heads aren't going to deliver it. Lift every voice!
alex |