Where are the voices?

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:21 AM

Re strong women singers, I have to add a name to Eric's list (in the 2:57 a.m. post) that may be new to some of you: Muireann nic Amhlaoibh (pronouned MURinn/MWIRinn nick OWL-leave).

She's got a beautiful resonant sound, the perfect antidote to all the ills we've been discussing, and she's also a fine flute player (performs with the group Danu as well as solo gigging). She's been making quite a name for herself here in Ireland - probably abroad too - and certainly belongs in the ranks of Dolores, Mary, and the rest of the good guys. If anyone's interested, her website is www.muireann.ie - give her a listen.

Richard, all that technical stuff isn't "theory", most of it is physical fact!

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:41 AM

Perhaps I am too literal-minded. My first degree was in mechanical engineering, so if you want me to believe, you are going to have to produce Gray's Anatomy and show me which muscles (etc) do what.

For example, I know I can't breathe from my stomach, because it hasn't got lungs.

Equally I can't sing from my stomach because it has no vocal chords.

I have some idea of what "head voice" means (in one usage) because when I hum I can feel my sinusses vibrate, and I understand the theory of the Helmholtz resonator (and bass reflex and other resonant speaker cabinets).   

But a lot of it emotionally feels like mumbo jumbo designed to denigrate or deny the supplicant (like discussing the state of health of the Builder).

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

"designed to denigrate or deny the supplicant" ???!!

No WAY. I have NO agenda other than supplying information which I thought was relevant to this thread - and the other posts don't read as though they do either. I think your imagination is working overtime; but whether or not that's the case, please don't impugn motives because you've quite simply got it wrong.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:05 AM

I know exactly what this thread is getting at and I can't stand it either. It's not just confined to women - there's plenty of men who sing in a similarly affected way. Not necessarily all breathy and baby-doll ish, so much as self-consciously eccentrically styled. Whatever you think of their music, the following people have a lot to answer for: Bjork, Devendra Banhart, Anthony (of & the Johnsons fame), Vashti Bunyan, Joanna Newsom et al.

A lot of (young) singers use it as short-hand for: "I'm a bit dark and witchy and mysterious. I occasionally communicate with woodland animals. I might well have been raised by wolves". To take one example, I would quite enjoy the music of Mary Hampton if she had the maturity to resist this tendency.

Two young singers I particularly like, whose delivery is refreshingly no-nonsense, are Jonny Kearney (www.myspace.com/jonnykearney) and 'Serious' Sam Barrett (www.myspace.com/sambarrett). I also recently heard a lovely couple of songs delivered acapella by Lauren McCormick (of Devil's Interval) at Cecil Sharp House the other weekend. She has a pretty voice, but it's utterly unpretentious. I could say the same about Bella Hardy, though with the caveat that she occasionally - only very occasionally mind – veers a little too close to Andrea Corr territory for my rather liking. I'm quite militant and churlish about this kind of thing though.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:14 AM

The whole sing-from-the-stomach thing is just about pushing with your stomach muscles to move more air faster. That, plus it focuses your attention on the muscles rather than the lungs. It's like driving from your engine instead of your fuel tank. One problem I used to have was thinking I had to suck in as much air as possible, and it was actually limiting me, not helping. I'm not sure why, but it's uncomfortable to push air out of an over-full set of lungs.

Here is Alices Threads on the Singing Voice with lots of links to threads about technique.

Vocal coaching is not going to make you sound goofy unless you want to sound that way. It can help you with volume and projection, and teach you how to keep from wearing out your voice.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:21 AM

No, not you, Bonnie - the idiots like the musical director cited above....

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:45 AM

Those links are interesting - although there is a lot of the mumbo-jumbo there, perhaps it will mean something when I read it slower.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: My guru always said
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:29 AM

Thanks for your kind words Richard *grin* I won't give up the songs for a while then. Am pretty sure that using techniques to help with breathing, control, projection and relaxation will help me even though I only sing for my own enjoyment rather than being in the public eye.

There's a lot of good information on this and Alice's thread and I've been reading it all with interest. To my mind, any way of helping people to sing out those good songs we find, singing them well and without wearing out the voice is well worth the effort.

BTW, isn't it easy to misunderstand stuff in black&white? *smiley*

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:05 AM

Whatever sort of music you sing, whatever quality of voice you have, you must adapt your technique to the medium that you will perform in, and you must do it in a way that won't harm your voice over time--that is what voice training is about. Nothing more or less.

The voice that is pleasing in the parlor may not carry in a noisy pub, the voice that can fill a hall unamplified generally has qualities that don't record well--and that's where it starts. What may seem like mumbo-jumbo is all intended help, not hinder the singer.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:06 AM

Yep!   :-)

And in fact I agree about fascist teachers who rule by force rather than strength, and make their students feel small, guaranteeing that learners will imbibe mental stress along with the music. This then replays itself like malware every time the student practices or performs, and manifests itself physically in muscle and tendon strain (not to mention the psychological effects). You get them in the harp world too -

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:02 AM

"criticising the use of head voice is like criticising a violin for not being a cello."
Bonnie, I like that line.

We are all born with the physical potential and also limitations of the shape and size of our vocal cords and the unique sound our body can make.

The column of air is a very important fact when it comes to being able to project a voice. If you don't have enough control over breathing in enough air and then controlling how you breathe it out while you sing, then you get that weak, babyish volume. Some people can naturally get some good breath support, but good training will always give you technique that will preserve your voice longer.

Richard, you say you want to know why. I think it is just a fad that has been promoted now and the public has latched on to it as something they will buy. The singer Jewel comes to my mind when I think of a very affected voice. Producers are not experts in voice technique. They will promote whatever gimmick sells.

To understand the transition, known as "passagio" between chest and head voice, google "passagio". Wikipedia and vocal sites will explain it. All singers have a passagio between the resonance that is lower in the chest and the resonance higher in the face mask. With good training, you learn to make a smooth transition so it doesn't sound like a break.

Both male and female voices have a passagio.

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:24 AM

Thank you Alice

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:35 AM

Even something about the atual mechanics involved!

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: GUEST,Simon.S
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:32 PM

I know what you mean Richard about this trend for weak, breathy, girly singers ie Rusby, Cara Dillon, Lisa Knapp, Jackie Oates, Mary Hampton, Joanna Newsom, Bella Hardy etc
but which young male folk singers are you thinking of exactly?

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:40 PM

No, this was not about naming and blaming. However you might guess that I was not talking about Jon Loomes (ex opera singer) or Tim Van Eyken, who has a nice Carthy-esque tone.

Jackie Oates I can forgive because of her spendid material - but it is checks and balances.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:47 PM

I don't mean Ian Bruce either - and he is not that young now I guess!

Johnny Silvo was one of the great voices too.

And what happened to that campaigner on disability, Johnny Thunder?

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM

I have just been watching a programme about Irish language singers.
QUOTE,When Irish singers sing,they say the story.
Singers of traditional songs please note.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: The Doctor
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM

Having seen and heard him only a few months back I can confirm that Johnny Silvo is still one of the great voices.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:21 AM

Actually, what you are hearing, and, in your ignorance, not recognizing, is the influence of Twee Pop--

Described at TweeNet   "They call it "wimpy" and "twee", but Pop Kids everywhere know that the true spirit of Punk Rock lives on not in the mass-marketed "alternative" scene, or the sub-metal caterwauling of testosterone-poisoned grunge-rockers, but in the simple and pure efforts of kids banging out sweet delicious songs on cheap guitars."

The influences are 60's folk rock, which as we know, was heavily rooted in British Folk music of the kind that you all sanctimoniously bicker about, so you've got no business complaining;-)

At any rate, you can listen to as much or as little as you want here IndiePop Podcasts --and even download it.

The music is deliberately and often ironically sweet, the lyrics are generally droll, often in a biting and Morissey-like way.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:03 PM

I have always assumed that the phenomenon Richard points out is a stylistic thing. The singers choose to sing that way for their own reasons.

Suzanne Vega was the first practitioner of this style to attract my attention.

Why do they want to sound like that?

Why did we all try to sound like Dylan once upon a time?

Some of us are sounding like our parents in this discussion.

Russ (Permanent GUEST and late to the party as usual)

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:57 PM

Maybe you're late, Russ, but you are right on the money.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 01:33 PM

Did you know my Parents?I reckon I can sing better than either of them,but they were modest.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 01:35 PM

"Why did we all try to sound like Dylan once upon a time?"

As Tonto said when he and the Lone Ranger were surrounded by hostile Indians and the Lone Ranger asked, "What do we do now, Tonto?"

"What you mean we, paleface?"

I know lots of singers of folk songs who did not (and do not) try to sound like Dylan, nor did they ever want to sound like him.

But I take your point.

I saw a young black singer at the Purple Onion back in 1959. He wore tight black pants, a red shirt open to the navel, and he was accompanied by a guy sitting on a stool behind him and playing a classic guitar. All the songs he sang, he had obviously learned from Harry Belafonte's records. He was really quite good. Very nice singing voice. Except that he was trying to sing with a sort of "husky" voice, like Belafonte has.

The pity of it was that he did have a fine singing voice of his own—when he let it out. But he was trying to be Harry Belafonte. Had he just sung in his own natural voice, developed a repertoire of his own, and dressed a bit differently rather than trying to look like someone else, he quite possibly could have been first rate. Instead, doing what he was doing, he could never be more than second-rate Belafonte. Belafonte got to be Belafonte because he was unique.

If everyone sounds like everyone else, people can't tell one from another. Hard to become a big star that way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: bankley
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM

and every now and then an Aaron Neville comes along, singing like an angel and looking like he just came from cellbock B, home-made facial tatoos and all....... nothing wrong with the groove either.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM

try Kenneth Williams and Tony Hancock,together on you tube.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:42 PM

It all seemed to start in the mid 80s with pop stars like Michael Jackson. Instead of the lead vocal standing out above the backing singers and accompaniment, it just seemed to merge into the mix as a glorified muzak.

Since then the cancer has spread - even unto folk.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

But, is it just about the voice or: using the voice to interpret the song well.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 02:13 PM

In the end, know thyself - be thyself, if you can. Affectations and faux personae generally do not stand the test of time.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Diva
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 02:40 PM

Brill thread. I think its breathing and opening the mouth...but I am not a trained singer but learned a lot with my time with the choir. There are still a guid lot of ballsy singers out there and hopefully the twee will not inherit the earth!!!!

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:15 AM

"Affectations and faux personae generally do not stand the test of time"

One conclusion I've come to recently – largely through singing a lot, in different styles – is that all voices have a degree of affectation. In trying to sing naturally, in a no-nonsense way, I've had to think about how I enunciate, how long I hold notes for, how much vibrato (if any) I use, whether or how much I soften consonants etc. Folk singing is as stylised as other forms of music – I find I have to really work at singing unaffectedly. It's a funny old game.

One other thought: it's entirely possible to have a soft, gentle voice and not sound fey or twee. Anne Briggs for example.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:19 AM

"Affectations and faux personae generally do not stand the test of time"

some peoples tests of time are more rigorous than others.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:42 AM

Slight thread drift.....

re. previous posts about about emulating other artists - I could never understand 'Stars in Their Eyes'.

The looks, dance routines, backing etc. were accomplished by studio professionals & make-up artists. So what did the 'performer' bring to the party? If I want to listen to Elvis, Parton etc. - I will listen to Elvis, Parton etc.
Be yourself !

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: JulieF
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:51 AM

When I went back to singing I held to the notion that I didn't want to do the songs that I wanted to do in the higher register. This is probably that I felt that the songs delivered in that way would come out like parlour operatics.   Take my Love is like a red red rose as the case in point. So I deliberatly worked on my lower register. I am aware that I have quite a large lower register now - due to practise. As a largely traditional singer it seems to work ok , especially if I can pitch songs which have a wider range so that the jump across the register change rather then drop on my weak notes.

Recently , I have come to the conclusion that I need to move back up a wee bit and work at taking the power and expressiveness that I have developed ( Even though I say it myself) into the higher register. This is something I would not have been able to do a few years ago and has only come with experience.   

On the plague of breathy singers.   I don't think it is a register thing but I think that it is an influence thing.   I think there are singers out there for whom this style is a natural and effective way to sing but they in turn influence singers for whom it is not natural.   I have met a few young female singers who have wonderful voices but who persist in using the vocal styles and phrasing of their heroes (Heroines if we are being pedantic).   In the same way that I have met men who only want to sound like Frank Sinatra.

J

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 11:48 AM

JulieF,

Among the American traditional singers I am familiar with, some sing high (e.g., Maggie Hammons Parker) and some sing low (e.g.,Shiela Kay Adams).

It might be a regional thing, but I am not sure.

Maggie does not sound operatic at all.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: JulieF
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM

Hi Russ

Largely it was my own inexperience - I knew what I didn't want to sound like and sang lower. If I had heard someone singing high who I really wanted to sound like I would have tried that. Now I have heard lots of people singing high that I want to sound like and have the knowledge to workout exactly what it is I like. So I can take the decoration and phrasing that I developed in the lower register and try it in the higher.

Certainly on the Scottish and Irish side lots of traditional songs were sung a palour ballads and tended to be sung in the same style that the light opera classics would be sung. I remember this sort of delivery from tv in my childhood. There again I remember belting the songs out as a kid at school as well.


J

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 12:37 PM

Sounding "natural" takes the most work of all.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 12:52 PM

Uh--how is that?

It would seem that all one need do to sound "natural" is to haul in a comfortable lungful of air and simply sing in one's comfortable range. Whatever comes out is what comes out. No strain, no pain.

But then, maybe you have something else in mind?

Learning to relax enough to sound natural might not be too easy, I guess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Marje
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 01:52 PM

It's infuriating, isn't it, how difficult it is to discuss this in silence? If we were all in a room together (admittedly, it would have to be a big room), we could say, "Look, if I make a sound like this..." and we'd know what we were talking about. As it is, we're reduced to giving examples of people we've all heard, which gets a bit personal.
All I can usefully add is that it's not just a matter of singing high or low. It's possible to sing the same phrase in the same key in a "head-voice" and then in a "chest-voice" and it'll sound quite different. Chest-voice singing tends to make the pitch sound lower than it is, while head-voice singing makes it sound higher.

Breathiness is a different issue but tends to happen with head-voice singing - I think it would be more difficult to sing breathily with chest-voice, although I dare say it can be done. As for why people do it, I wonder if it's because they got praised for sounding like that when they were children, and just went on singing the same way when they grew up?

Now just let me try that breathy head-voice thing... are you listening?

Marje

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 05:45 PM

When you take a deep breath and let whatever comes out comes out, you're not singing--you have to control your voice to sing. More specifically you control the pitch rhythm, dynamics, and timbre of your voice. Some people can pull all those things together intuitively, but most people have to work at it for a while--a few of them manage to get past the mechanics to find a voice that is expressive and unique, but that's a very few.

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:07 PM

Point well taken, Marje--the problems of a forum discussion about music is that you sometimes aren't sure you know what the other person is taking about, and that's apart from the the times youaren't sure the other person knows what they're talking about--

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:50 PM

Fair enough.

I think, however, that the manner in which one tries to control the voice is crucial. Many people try to over-control, and that's where things go wrong.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Where are the voices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:18 PM

When you're learning, you hold the reigns tight at first. And imitation is the first step to learning. In performing arts especially, good imitation can draw a lot of positive response. Young performers who experience that tend to overate their achievements--