BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 10:13 AM

al - 'i can remember one of the trots' becomes 'that's where their heads are at' a couple of lines later.

1. you can remember when exactly?
2. can you confirm it was just one trot you were speaking to?
3. are you sure s/he wasn't exaggerating for supposed comic effect?
4. going from this past to the present what evidence is there that 'trots' are having any major influence in current labour policy?
5. when do you think the tories and their wealthy friends will tire of repeating their old 'reds under the bed' scare tactics?
6. do you think it is possible that they are doing this to distract from the inequalities and chaos caused by the tories and particularly the ERG and chums who now rule since the slightly less extreme members and ministers have left?
7. really, who would you rather trust to run the country relatively fairly and sensibly?

i'm writing as someone who has always been left and a socialist - michael foot, tony benn and the current leadership i can support. i have been a trot before and now believe that we have drifted so far to the right that a major redirection is well overdue. to try and restore some fairness and decency to our country - to restore our public services and save the planet.
we have a leaflet from our tory candidate today - just rubbishing labour and our spending plans. no mention of a single tory policy.

these lies and smears and evasions are not any sort of way to run a party or the country.

i'm despairing at the fact that a sizeable minority of our country have been cheated and manipulated in such a cynical way that they no longer have hope that a better way is possible. they are probably right - we either smash the tories (still a bit trotty!) or we are doomed.

8. as a general thing - would folk rather we went along usa lines or to try and get back to being a mature and properly functioning european state?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019 Look
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 11:15 AM

Yes probably I'm missing the irony.


Anyway - if you are more in touch with modern society than i am - we will see soon enough. I hope you are right.

The trot is a lifelong friend. He's been saying it for the last forty years,..... at least.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 11:23 AM

Al - well can you come up with a better Labour leader who the right wing media
won't attack and discredit without mercy...???

.. perhaps another Old Etonian running Labour from the inside
as a proxy puppet for the tory establishment...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM

Leon Rosselson asking a very valid question here, and giving some equally valid answers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:10 PM

The irony comment wasn't aimed at you, Al. See 07.41AM.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:17 PM

bwm - interesting read, thanks. but the way things are going is very depressing. for a time where i work (workington) there seems a lot of hostility to labour and a more generalised distrust of anyone taking a more thoughtful, balanced view from the tory media line. easy talk of traitors, remoaners etc readily leads to hostility. we could move - if we could sell the house. what's happened to us - it doesn't feel that long since the opening ceremony to the london olympics but the mood is very different now, and scary

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM

I think now that some form of partition is becoming inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 03:03 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
        Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:10 PM
See 07.41AM.

I do appreciate your attempts to increase my audience. There really is no need though.
Meanwhile the Labour wrecks continue. Not exactly "whisky galore" though,is it? But like the film, Mr Plod will be involved!

Plymouth City Council have reported the odd behaviour of Plymouth Labour Officer Baz Ahmed to the police and the Electoral Commission after his posting of pictures of postal ballots was reported by Guido. Neighbouring MP Johnny Mercer has also said he will be informing the police.
Full details from Guido, of course!
https://order-order.com/2019/11/27/plymouth-city-council-refer-postal-vote-questions-police-electoral-commission/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 07:27 AM

Johnson now turning his attention away from 'tank-topped bum-boys', 'letter-boxes', and 'picanninies with water-melon smiles', and on to 'ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive, and illegitimate' children of 'uppity and irresponsible' single mothers.

SFA by way of policies (other than the misleading 'Get Brexit Done' mantra he uses to brainwash the feeble-minded), why in the name of all that's holy would any decent, thinking, self-respecting person vote Conservative?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 07:37 AM

Just noticed that article refers to comments he made in 1995 - Mea Culpa, Hail Mary Mother of God!

Doesn't change the fact that it tells us a very great deal about the man and his attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM

I would not worry too much about that date., BWM. It was at around that time that Corbyn met with "the IRA" and no one has ever let the fact it is so long bother them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

Very true, DMcG!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:28 PM

According to paddy power themselve they got things wrong 3 times in 2016 on brexit on leicester city winning the premier league and on trump1.
The 2016 US Election

Following on from a flood of allegations against Donald Trump arising from what he said on a tour bus show years ago, we thought the billionaires’ campaign was over and decided to take action.

A week before the election we paid out Hilary Clinton being the next president of the United States, meaning any customer who backed Hilary got their money early. This $1 million pay-out got a lot of attention and ended up back firing in spectacular fashion.

Trump started the election campaign as massive 100/1 outsider (November 2012-June 2015) but saw his odds freefall to as short as 13/8 (May 2016) at one point but revelations halted his momentum and caused his chances of victory to plummet like the value of sterling, resulting in chunky odds of 9/2 (representing a 18.2 per cent chance of winning, as of October 20).

Throughout this time Paddy Power punters piled into The Donald and availed of some serious chunky prices.

With Hilary backers already paid up the morning of the election was a dark one on the trading floor of Power Tower as the total loss for the US election came to $4.5million.
iains do not count your chickens you mightlose yoir eggs

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:31 AM

Daddy Johnson on TV this morning, defending his son’s craven cowardice in refusing to appear on the Channel 4 Climate Change Leaders’ Debate programme, and sending The Little Scottish Viper instead.

Channel 4 declined having TLSV on, and ‘empty-chaired’ The Craven Coward with a block of ice. Good for them!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM

Labour has announced a plan to plant 2 billion trees over the next 20 years. The BBC describes this as “ambitious”. Guido has been doing some sums.

    This would mean more than 270,000 trees being planted every day for 20 years.
    Assuming a 7-hour working day that is over 600 trees a minute.
    That would require 20,000 people planting trees.
    If each tree requires a planting density of say 10 square metres per tree, that is 10,000 trees per square kilometre, so 27 square kilometres-a-day, that is foresting an area the size of Exeter every day for 20 years.
    After 20 years some 9.5% of the UK land surface would have to been forested.

The surface area of Britain is 209,331,000,00m², given 13% of Britain is already forest, that means Labour’s tree planting would result in nearly 23% of Britain being forest. Roughly 70% of Britain is currently agricultural land and the remaining 7% of the country is urbanised for human habitation. Looks like Labour’s 150,000 homes a year pledge will actually have to be treehouses…

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:53 AM

As its been established beyond peradventure, that both sides are lying their heads off, will either side accept the result?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 04:07 AM

I do have to say, looking at things from a Tory POV, that they are being very sensible keeping The Blond Buffoon away from any kind of debate because, as they are acutely aware, his huffing, puffing, blustering, arm-waving, and talking through his considerably-more-than-ample arse would be very likely to lose them more votes than it would gain them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 05:21 AM

Intelligent voters know that exaggerated plans in manifestos are a time-honoured thing. Intelligent voters see manifestos as aspirations giving them the general sense of direction the party hopes to follow. Intelligent voters know that circumstances can and do scupper some manifesto dreams. Actual lying comes in the particular details, for example telling us that they are planning an extra 50,000 nurses when they mean 31,000, or 40 new hospitals when they mean six, or that we'll be better off by £500 per annum each when they mean £85. They are outright deliberate lies. It's good that manifestos are scrutinised for costings, but in my opinion the IFS got it wrong yesterday when they excoriated both major parties for their unrealistic costings. No-one with half a brain expects a party to be able to predict even in the biggest ball park what money they'll need over five years. What we want to see is the big picture when it comes to their plans for improving the lot of all of the people of this country, which means, among other things, looking after our NHS, schools, infrastructure and the elderly and disabled and raising taxes to pay for it all from the people and companies who can most afford to pay them. As for planting trees, the trees in my garden plant themselves so bloody quickly (assisted by jays and squirrels) that I can't keep up with controlling them. Now there's a thing. Who needs people to do it! Whoever thinks that planting a tree always requires a chap with a spade and a bit of manure in a sack and a carefully-nurtured nursery-reared sapling clearly doesn't know much about nature.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM

Just wait for reports that the latest YouGov poll shows ‘Boris Johnson easily won the Climate-Change Leaders’ Debate last night’...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 06:19 AM

Re the tree planting thing the same idea is being mentioned on FB suggesting the numbers are so large that it would be impossible to physically have the time to plant so many trees. However if you look at the numbers as to what is happening now it seems that it is possible.

Labour want to see 300 million trees being planted over their first 5 years in office. This amounts to 60 million per year but it includes what is already being planted by the devolved administrations. Scotland alone planted 22 million trees last year! So that is one of the four UK nations whose population amounts to less than 9% of the total is already planting 36% of what the total annual target is under Labour for their first five years. So Labour's plans for their first administration aren't really that impossible as far as time goes. Surely if Scotland can plant about 4 trees per person every year - then the UK as a whole can plant what would be nearer 1 tree per person per year?? After that for the next five years it would need to be about 140 million per year to get to the 1 billion by 2030 which still only amounts to between 2 and 3 trees per person per year. Then it would reduce to a minimum 100 million per year between 2030 and 2040.

As to the space for the trees well I am sure once they got nearer the planned forestry extent then they could adjust. Though here in Scotland it is not all positive to be fair and where forestry is going to be and how it is done can be an issue as Iains suggests. Here in the Borders the Buccleuch Estate has been accused of pushing smallholders off the land to enable it to be sold for forestry.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 09:52 AM

Labour staff are getting a P45 for Christmas:

Labour is facing huge cutbacks, to “way smaller” levels than before the election. Guido understands the party’s headcount is being cut from 700 to 300 staff members, with whole departments being shut down, including the party’s 100 person strong call centre.

That’s the trouble with socialists, they eventually run out of other people’s money…

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 10:04 AM

I can't remember the details, but in the last couple of years it was reported that one nation [African ?]
declared a national tree planting day when every citizen joined in...

That's the sort of mass scale celebration event that could feasably be organized
once a year...

Perhaps even guido worshippers could be encouraged to quit being so malicious for just one day,
and take part in such a happy event to help save the planet by planting trees...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 10:20 AM

We need trees high up on valley sides where they can absorb the rainfall before it floods the streams and rivers below. I think it would be a good measure of who we should vote for it we gave each candidate a couple of saplings and a shovel. Then send them up a Yorkshire or Cumbrian hill to plant trees. Whoever does best after the trees are established wins :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM

Has guido sorted out a list of left wing trees that need discrediting and uprooting...
Or are all trees suspect and open for felling until proven sufficiently right wing...

I was reading an article last night that the Cedar might even be too extreme neo n@zi for Texas...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 11:28 AM

Red oak

Giant redwood (not the Tory "man with no nipples" I hasten to add)

Ash (Sarkar)

Western red cedar

Rhododendron (think about it...)

Thornberry (our Em)

Dawn "Butler" redwood

Chamaecyparis (Shami...geddit?)

Hazel (Blears)

Gwyneth Dunwoody...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 12:58 PM

Of course the landowner benefits hugely from tree planting.
Successful applicants will get paid up to £6,800 per hectare (ha) if they are using this item to create new woodland.
Subject to eligibility, a supporting maintenance grant of £200 per hectare for 10 years may also be available.
A much better business model than upland sheep farming.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM

So The Craven Cowardly Blond Buffoon sent his Pater to stick up for him on breakfast TV this morning. And the Old Block the Chip came off was true to family-form - when it was suggested that a lot of people were comparing Johnson Jr. to Pinocchio, Pater remarked that the majority of British people were so illiterate that they wouldn’t even be able to spell ‘Pinocchio’.

An arrogant cock who begat an arrogant cock.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:11 PM

Little pfr is deeply offended that you should associate cocks with that family...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:17 PM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM

Someone I know commented that when you see Bozza and his old man together you can easily figure out how to spell Pinocchio. There are two "C"s

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 08:14 PM

Watched the mostly-heat-little-light debate this evening. That big gangling brexit git is just risible, and the Tories sent a robot. Caroline was impressive, as was Nicola. But my hero was Rebecca Long-Bailey. A star in the making. And begod, she smiles. A Manchester girl (supports Man U, unfortunately, but hey ho), whose dad, like my grandad, worked in Salford docks. A proper northern leftie. Tekkit from me, she's the next Labour leader or I'll eat my hat! Great night for the women!   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 08:46 PM

These Tories simply can't help themselves. Well, I suppose thst the Bullingdon Clud A remark by a Conservative general election candidate about a Sikh politician's turban is being treated by police as a "hate incident".
Philip Dunne, who is seeking to return as MP for Ludlow, Shropshire, said Labour rival Kuldip Sahota was "talking through his turban" during hustings in Church Stretton on Wednesday.
"It's disrespectful and ridiculing my faith. I'm pleased the police are investigating it as a hate incident," said Mr Sahota.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 19 - 04:13 PM

Quite an interesting leaflet of my ERG supporting Tory MP today: it didnt mention Brexit at all. The only mention of a Labour wanting a further referendum was, and I quote, "to break up Britain.' Even that was in the smallest font on the leaflet, though "SNP to back Labour government only with Scottish independence vote" was much larger and prominent (though still on the back
page).

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 19 - 07:09 PM

That last post of mine was mashed and prematurely posted before I'd reviewed it, then I got waylaid by issues beyond. Sorry about that. Please ignore!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM

The full transcript of Johnson, on the Marr programme this morning, trying to blame Labour in general, and Jeremy Corbyn in particular, for the Terrorist attack on London Bridge on Friday.

I cannot recall a more nauseating piece of reading in my entire adult life. What a disgusting, lying piece of excrement Johnson is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 12:50 PM

Five lies Johnson told on the Marr programme this morning.

He’s an absolute disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 02:59 PM

Funny how the Tories’ only tactic for the past few years is to hurl around accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ in the LP, yet Theresa May seems to have been perfectly happy about unveiling a statue to a ‘virulent anti-semite’. Boris Johnson also seemed very happy to visit the statue.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 03:20 PM

Who knows perhaps they will be honouring Mosley next. THE FASCISTLEADER AND PROBABLY THE LAST LABOUR MP WHO WAS AN ANTI SEMITE

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 03:51 PM

An excellent piece today on FB from Attila The Stockbroker, which I’m C&P-ing below.

”Had a long and fascinating conversation with Ed Miliband last night about press and media bias against the Labour Party and his experience of it, which obviously took a hell of a lot out of him at the time. The disgusting, yes, antisemitic slurs against his father, the endless seeking out of unfavourable photo shots, just one chapter in an endless campaign of vilification and abuse against the Left. Foot's donkey jacket, Kinnock's bald head, the sneers, the personal taunts...

The contemptible individuals who write this stuff are a disgrace to the journalistic profession: they are the brown-nosing hirelings of billionaires and should have no place in a civilised society. The only Labour leader since my adulthood to have escaped the disgusting demolition of the right wing press is Blair, and he flew to Australia and prostrated himself before Rupert Murdoch to achieve it. That is not a democratic process, and in terms of the media, this country is not a democracy.

Everything is skewed in favour of the Tories since, obviously, rich media barons want to protect their wealth, and the most disgusting and hypocritical aspect of all this is that these proprietors feel entitled to be as biased as they like while vilifying public service broadcasters whom they accuse of favouring the Left.

It shouldn't matter whether a media outlet is privately or publicly owned: they are all supposed to be providing a public service and should be accountable as such. And no outlets should be owned by wealthy individuals, but should be shareholders' co-operatives like the newspaper I am proud to write for.

Across the board, and especially at election times, there needs to be a media watchdog with the teeth of a thousand Siberian tigers enforcing impartiality, fairness and the eradication of what is so laughably called 'fake news.' That doesn't mean that outlets should not be biased towards one side of the other. It does mean that, by law, there should be equal media representation of the ideas of Right and Left.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 03:56 PM

I'd agree with you but then we'd all be wrong!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 04:54 PM

I think you’d find we’d both be right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 03:37 AM

I have just been reading the actual legislation for Early Release of Prisoners, rather than what a journalist or party spokesman may think:
Here is section 7.13 of the memorandum, which is saying people who should be excluded from the legislation for early release.
=====
Statutory exclusions apply, including all registered sex offenders, those convicted of a violent or sexual offence and serving an extended determinate sentence, and offenders who have ever been recalled to prison for failing to comply with the HDC curfew conditions. Those sentenced to imprisonment for four years or more are statutorily excluded from the scheme. Some offenders may be statutorily eligible to be considered for HDC but are, as a matter of policy, presumed unsuitable for the scheme in the absence of exceptional circumstances. Offenders presumed unsuitable for release on HDC include those serving a sentence for terrorism offences, cruelty to children and homicide.
===
So those imprisoned for 16 years fall into the 'more than four years' exclusion. Then there is 'Offenders presumed unsuitable … include …. terrorism offences.'
So no, there was no 'automatic release' for the London Bridge attacker.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 03:48 AM

Oh come on DMcG, you know the mantra of the present Tory government, led by Dom & Dumber, as well as any of us - “Never let the truth get in the way of a Corbyn-bashing opportunity”.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 04:27 AM

True, Backwoodman, but I find it occasionally useful when chatting to an ordinary voter or canvasser to refer to the actual document.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 04:39 AM

Every time Corbyn opens his mouth he harms his party. We valiant Brexiteers merely sit on the sidelines and applaud his antics.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:24 AM

More from car crash Corbyn


https://order-order.com/2019/12/02/jeremy-corbyn-expelled-labour-party/

within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of Corbyn
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear’d and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour’d thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell Corbyn!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:28 AM

DMcG:
You don't give a link to your authority for the last cut and paste, but it appears you may be confusing early release with HDC (Home detention curfew).
The fact that those with sentences over 4 years are not eligible for HDC (details >Here) they may still be eligible for early release:
Section 14: Definition of “requisite custodial period”
197.
Section 14 inserts a definition of “requisite custodial period” into the interpretation provision in Chapter 6 of Part 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. “Requisite custodial period” has different meanings for different sentences. For the purposes of a standard determinate sentence (covered by section 243A and 244), the ‘requisite custodial period’ ends at the half-way point; for the purposes of an extended determinate sentence (imposed under section 226A or 226B) it ends at the two-thirds point of the custodial term, or the half-way point of the custodial term for extended sentences imposed under the previous regime (under section 227 or 228) From Here

It may be that the journalists, and party spokesmen, that you criticise are speaking from a deeper knowledge than your quick scan of some of the law allows.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:31 AM

Sorry, first link didn't work, try:HDC

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:44 AM

It may be that the journalists, and party spokesmen, that you criticise are speaking from a deeper knowledge than your quick scan of some of the law allow

Well, that is always possible, of course. None of us are omniscient. But as far as a link goes, it was to the actual legislation on the government web site.

There are close links between early release and HDC, because it is release under supervision under the leglislation, and HDC is one of the means of supervision.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:56 AM

But as my links make clear (and the second one is to the legislation) your comment So those imprisoned for 16 years fall into the 'more than four years' exclusion. relates to HDC, it does not prevent 'early release'.