downloading music

Subject: downloading music
From: woodsie
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:05 PM

What do mudcatters use for downloading music? Personaly I like winMX.

Bittorents is a good little piece of software that allows you to download music, software, movies, tv progs, comics etc, etc.

Have any muscatters tried it?

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:40 PM

I use dsl. It seems to be enough.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:10 AM

Kazaa mostly... well, Kazaa lite actually...

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: woodsie
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 10:05 PM

I'm quite inpressed with bittorents the albums come in folders with seperate tracks and often with the sleeve artwork as well

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 10:25 PM

Bit Torrent is great especially for large files like movies. For everyday sound files, I use iTunes, or an FTP application.


A

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 10:31 PM

Someone wise in the ways of FTP is always a pleasure to find!

:-)

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 03:50 AM

Only ever used Kazaa myself, though I've never heard of Kazza lite.
You cutting down Clinton?
C-flat.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 04:44 AM

Kazaa lite was the no-add-ware version of Kazaa... the guy who was keeping up the site where you could get the program was forced to shut down...

Look around the net... it's not too hard to find...

Like anything else ya want...

:-)

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: mooman
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:00 AM

Limewire Pro for the Mac.

moo

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: s6k
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:09 AM

Limewire is better than kazaa, it never gets a corrupt file, however kazaa has more users. Kazaa lite is infinitely superior to kazaa, as it has an automatic UNLIMITED search more function, no ads or popups, and lots of extra little features.

the best place for torrents is www.suprnova.org - yes, its spelt without the E. it has everything from films, albums etc. not very good for individual songs though.

the best program to use for torrents from suprnova is ABC Client... type it in google, its the first result. it always downloads at the maximum your modem can handle, and is small and a child could use it.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: mcgrathof altcar
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:57 AM

Limewire. yummy. I've even downloaded some music with me on it!

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: John P
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 10:04 AM

I don't get the whole thing about downloading music. Why not just buy a CD? How do you go about paying the artists when you download music?

JP

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 10:34 AM

JohnP, I agree. Maybe we are old fashioned. I like to go buy a CD, read the liner notes, see who is credited with writing the song, look at the pictures of the artists, see where the music was recorded, and see who the musicians are on the recording.

I also believe that artists should get royalties and record companies are entitled to make money.

An article I just read by Chet Filipo on CMT.com (he is the former Rolling Stone journalist who writes a weekly on-line column) says the war by the record companies is far from over. Artists are getting ripped off constantly by the many free-loaders. I guess there is now some legal downloading available. I'd rather go buy the product.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:21 AM

Furthermore. most artists get ripped off by the record companies from Day One anyway. Why make it worse? Buy the CD, or pay a buck to download the track.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: mooman
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:45 AM

All the music I download I have either already bought the CDs or have bought them subsequently.

moo

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: s6k
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 01:21 PM

well, if i download an album, and i really like it, then i will end up buying the CD in the end anyway.
i am an audiophile and you cant get mp3s to sound like the real thing.

But i contest at the people who say dont download because its hurting artists: when was the last time you bought an album and hated.
i must ask... why do i not have the right to download the album and listen to it before i decide to buy it or not.
if i buy it and dont like it, ive wasted my money, but if i download, have a few listens and think: yeh ill buy this, then surely thats just common sense?

i think this is a very legitimate counter argument. MP3 is good to listen to on my pc while im sat working at home, or in my walkman. but if i really want to LISTEN to music, ill listen to the album, which if i own the mp3, im gonna own the album too because it means i must like it.

thanks for your time.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

Is there a legimate music download site - like iTunes, etc - that people find good for whatever-their-personal-definition-of-folk-music?

I looked at iTunes when it was it was first available in the UK and have just looked again, and there is very little of what I would call folk (Example test: How many Watersons/Carthy songs does it hold?)

So, is there a legal, buy-a-track site people like?

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM

" So, is there a legal, buy-a-track site people like?"

Nope... eMule...

:-)

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: GUEST,drat I'm gonna have to sort my cookie out
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 01:57 PM

well according to my wife I spend far too much on music!

most of the things I download are old tracks that I've got on vinyl, which reminds me, does anyone have a copy of 'give it one more chance' by gary farr and the t bones or 'satisfied and tickled too' by stefan grossman?

Usually when i download some music, it's before I go to see someone perform, which also costs an arm and a leg or like s6k I buy more of that artist.

The type of music i like I cant download and here in the UK i have to pay quite a bit for.

for goodness sake it's a bit like borrowing a book, come on don't tell me you've never done that, if anyone wants back what I've downloaded ok.

oh yes, I nearly forgot I use soulseek.

all the very breast

Ritchie

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:11 PM

"I spend far too much on music"

Error... does not compute... no such concept!

LOL

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Ritchie
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM

talk to my wife "how on earth are you going to listen to it all?"

"you probably don't know what you've got or where half of it is"

mind you i have been known to buy the same cd twice ...I love a bargain ...although I must admit I've stopped 'sneaking them into the house' probably cos I've cut down on browsing.

there must be some sort of 'music aholics society' though.

Clinton you're an honoray member!

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:55 PM

Nope... it's more like music to me is as essential as blood or air...

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Ritchie
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 03:44 PM

without doubt, listening or playing it ...but buying it!!

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:30 PM

I download nearly everything I want...

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 08:32 AM

1) I have bought music beCAUSE I discovered it online.
2) CDs are incredibly cheap to mass produce, and the machinery for making them has long since been amortized, yet the companies are still charging $10 to $20 for 'em (the artist gets a small cut).
3) The powers of the industry have got Congress to extend copyrights well beyond a good societal norm in order to enable them to lock in future profits with capital.
4) mp3's are not the equivalent of CD tracks.

Fight the power. Boycott the members of RIAA.
Listen to live music. Pay real people. Buy CDs at performance venues.

I like old Radio Shows, Goons, ISIRTA, ISIHAC, Navy Lark, Dad's Army, Suspense, CBS Radio Mystery. I may download a top 40 to give it a listen and a toss, but if I'm regularly listening to something I've downloaded, I'll buy it. That's what happned with Austin Lounge Lizards and Fiery Furnaces.

I used to use Kazaa, they included a lot of garbage sales stuff with their program, ultimately I bought into limewire and have been happy with it.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 08:50 AM

Great arguments, Robo. Problem is that they are all based on an incorrect premise. They are based on the argument that there is a justification for taking something that one is supposed to pay for. I agree with the issue that the "big labels" are ripping off artists and the public. But I also think that about automobiles. Yet it is no more correct to steal from someone, just because you don't agree. The proper response is to not utilize their services. The other thing that doesn't fly in all this is that once a person rationalizes that it is OK to copy from the big dudes, then it is a short walk to doing it from me. It costs me from $9.00 to $12.00 to produce a CD. Toss in the factor for the promo copies I give away, and the cost of travel to promote it, never mind the cost of my equipment, and you can see why it is difficult to make money at $15.00 a copy. Folk Legacy Records, a jewel we cannot afford to lose, barely makes ends meet at $15.00 a copy. Dick at Camsco keeps going out of love for the music, because he is lucky to break even.

But stealing is stealing, no matter how you cut it. Ask your Mom.

Mick

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM

Ritchie
I do have Stefan Grossman's album 'Ragtime Cowboy Jew' containing 'Satisfied & tickled too' - BUT currently no record deck!

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:58 PM

I'm with Big Mick on this one, though there can be a few well-argued exceptions. One such is relevant to original music, where the songwriter or composer actively wishes to "put the song about" as it were, and makes MP3s available on purpose. In my case, I have put 8 MP3s on my website and also made them available from Download.com at no charge. I have no problem with these being copied, and indeed they have about 200 "hits" a week on Download.com - 10,000 to date.

The way I see it, that is 10,000 people who have listened to "Empty Handed" (an earlier version, not the new one with Cloudstreet), that otherwise might not have heard of it. Have I missed sales from this? Realistically, perhaps $500 worth. But I have had scores of emails from people through this, from all over the world, and some did buy albums. The thing is, this was MY decision to put the songs out.

At the same time, I was told that the whole of my fourth album is now available on eMule; well, not too happy about that, because someone took the decision out of my hands. It's not so much the revenue loss (again, probably not much), but the arrogance of the c***t that did it, that annoys. As Big Mick says, that is theft pure and simple.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 02:38 PM

My mom downloads music too...

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 02:43 PM

Right, George. I agree that it can be a great tool. But only when one chooses to use it as such. There is no inherent right to download my property.

Clinton, I would rather we didn't get personal, but let me just say that a Mother that is downloading, IMHO, is stealing too. Good thing we are friends, or you might come hunting me over that one.

:^)

Mick

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 03:44 PM

You can actually pay to download music--if anyone were to ask me--I would tell them that it wouldn't be a half bad idea to have a Mudcat/Camsco site where one could download folk/traditional/music at a competitive rate--all nice and legal, of course--browsing through a the music section of the forum would be much more fun if one could download the songs and artists that were being discussed--

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 03:52 PM

2) CDs are incredibly cheap to mass produce, and the machinery for making them has long since been amortized, yet the companies are still charging $10 to $20 for 'em (the artist gets a small cut).

True, but MAKING the cd is expensive if you're paying your fellow artists to play on it, a recording studio to record it, a designer to make the booklet, roayalties to writers and publishers..all paid before pressing costs.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 03:57 PM

Mick.. I've called my mom worse to her face...

And really I doubt she cares what you or anyone else think of her and what she does...

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:02 PM

Big Mick and El Greko:

If you go to a CD store and purchase a CD, take it home, and find out it stinks, the chances are you are out your money AND you have an expensive new coaster.

It is my understanding that:
1) The RIAA companies have charged that their sales are diminished due to downloading but this has not been proven.
2) The real financial loss to the recording industry is not from downloading but rather from counterfeiting (particularly movies).

The gain for musicians and consumers is an entirely new medium with which to engage in commerce, and circumvent the big companies. The big companies are trying to tie up the new medium, and should not be allowed to.

If I go into a record store, the better ones anyway, I can still request that they play a track off an album and if I don't like it, I don't buy it. Utilizing a download for the same purpose is a difference with no distinction.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:53 PM

There are two songs I particularly want to download. I'm learning them to play, and I'd like to refresh my memory of how they sounded. I'm quite prepared to pay 99 cents (or the rather greater 99p we get charged in the UK, someone spot a restrictive practice?) - but I can't. Why? 'cos I run Win98SE (actually I've got two other machines on my network, one with ME and the other with 95, but I disgress) and the legal Napster and the other one whateveritis only run with XP. I refuse to run XP because I don't want Mr Gates spying on me. Eveything I have is legal (subject as below), but I object to to him snooping on me.

And I cannot find either on Kazaa (lite) or Soulseek either.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:00 PM

Richard and Robo, I see no problem with downloading on a pay per track basis. Nor do I see a problem with mp3 files that allow you to sample my music. In fact, that is the legitimate and useful purpose of the file sharing medium.

Robo .... you continue to mouth the same arguments. You are attempting to mitigate your guilt. The fact that you don't like that the industry has the ability to amortize their costs and then enter into a higher profit margin is not germaine. That is called capitalism. If you want to have a thread about the relative merits/failings of economic systems, that is one thing. But you, like so many before you, always try to sidestep the issue by debating a false predicate. When you take something for nothing, that you would otherwise have to pay for, that is called stealing. This isn't about the companies ripping you off. It is about you getting free music to my detriment as a recording artist. Simple as that.

Mick

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 06:55 PM

Go one better Mick. Forget the record industry - I have funded all 5 of my albums 100%, recording the first 4 using my own kit that I bought for $1800, and paying for studio and artists for the fifth out of my own pocket. I also paid for the artwork design (when I did not do it myself), the creation of a master and the manufacturing. Ah, yes, for the advertising too.

Now, I don't have unlimited funds, neither do I expect to make money out if all - breaking even would be a dream.

Therefore, to have my tracks appear for free downloading without my permission and then to hear woolly arguments about the rights and wrongs of the record industry is an insult to my one-man "cottage industry". And no excuses about buying an album only to find that it is crap. You should have listened to a few tracks first, most record stores let you do that. You cannot compare downloads to a trial listening - why? Because you can KEEP downloads, obviating the need for a purchase!

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:02 PM

"You are attempting to mitigate your guilt."

I had my guilt gland removed several years ago, and have never been happier... Guilt is a bogus emotion, laid on you by other people who THINK you SHOULD be doing things the way THEY do...

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

... which sentiments can only be spoken by someone who has never 'walked a mile in another man's shoes'........

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM

I have never downloaded music that I have not paid for, because I agree that theft is theft, and no amount of rationalisation can change that.

Having said that, and drifting slightly from the thread (sorry), can anyone tell me what is the difference between that and using someone else's song in live performance, without permission, to earn money.

Please don't tell me that that is covered by the PRS (Performing Rights Society, in Britain) licences that a few venues bother to pay for. Everyone knows that unless you are Paul Simon, or someone of that calibre, the PRS don't want to know you, far less pay you a share of the millions they collect. As a jobbing folkie with a CD of original material which is selling quite well at venues, I get no benefit from this, and anyone can use my material with no possible comeback. My heart grieves for the millionaires who are losing money, but when might I expect the same protection that they enjoy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 09:01 PM

At the moment - I also go with LIME-WIRE

You won't find "Punch the Horse" or LaughKat's "Wyoming Memories of Utah" however, you will find classics whose performers are long dead.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I've ftp-ed, morphed, napped and kazaa-ed, but my key for moment is lime.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 09:06 PM

Spoken just like a cop Mr. Wysiwyg.

Another entire thread could be devoted to Mr. Simon and his unaknowledged "borrowing" from UK sources.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Ritchie
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:19 AM

and whist I'm on the subject, photocopying is wrong. Damn technology, lets get back to the good old days.

Pavane, that's the reason I want to download 'most' of my vinyl collection ...no turntable....'ragtime cowboy jew' unplayed....it's a shame...nay ...it's a disgrace!

regards

the reverend ritchie.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:49 AM

Just about on MY point gargoyle, he being protected from loss while said UK sources can do nothing when he steals from them.

PRS et al please note:- The playing field has a considerable list to the high dollar side.

BTW! Mum didn't raise any cops, as some of my songs on the subject would prove. I don't judge or advise others, just live by my own sense of what is right.

Don T.

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 09:39 PM

I have some questions relative to this issue.

If the Public library in your town buys a copy of your CD and then several thousand people listen to it, is that stealing? If so, why? If not, why not?

If some of these people copy your CD and listen to it, is this stealing? Why or why not? They can listen to it by checking it out or copying it. What is the difference?

Why is listening to someone's CD after borrowing it or copying it, different from reading a book from someone who gives it to your or lets you borrow it? Is each copy of a book only for the individual who buys it? Is each copy of a CD only for the individual who buys it? What is the difference in these two examples? If any?


Does it follow that if you can not listen to a CD without first purchasing it that you can not read a book someone wants to lend you without first purchasing it? What if your CD is discarded by someone else? Is it stealing to then find this CD and copy it?

If you view an artwork must you first purchase it? How is viewing an artwork without purchasing it different than downloading someone's song and listening to it?


The concept of whether one is stealing music by downloading without paying the artist for his work seems much more complex than the assertion that downloading without paying is always stealing, period.

Anyway, I have suspicion of pronouncements about what is right and wrong in this regard and these questions illustrate some of what I think about regarding this issue. Moral issues seem much more complex to me.


love, harpgirl the real one

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:44 PM

harpgirl asks some important questions: I own 500-600 LPs and many tapes and CDs,...all legally bought... but I simply cannot afford to buy all that I'd like to now that I'm retired and on a seriously limited budget...if I see a song online that I'd love to have, but have no spare funds to by the whole CD, what do I do? I know I'm not going out and buy the CD, so if I copy the song...technically an illegal act...the artist has lost nothing (just as a theater owner would lose nothing by letting some kids in for free when they had no money, and would not have come in legally anyway.)

Later, I 'might' buy that CD , and those kids 'might' come back and pay for a seat....and that's the argument used by some who use peer-to-peer, or download from newsgroups, and if that's all it was everyone would be fine. But if someone keeps up with music, and WANTS all the latest CDs of some particular genré, and INTENDS to get them without putting out a dime, except for the cost of his computer equipment, he is clearly defeating the purpose of the artist, who wants to make money from his talent........and you and I could both write scripts that fall between those two extremes, just as harpgirl's questions suggest.

Like many issues, it WILL work itself out in some way, as musicians will NOT continue to make CDs in the same way if they can't make a living at it...maybe some folks will get by on live concerts...and some honest folks will continue to BUY CDs...we'll see how many.

You notice that Clinton H. and others seldom defend their decision to 'take' free music wherever thay can get it...they state that they feel no guilt, and dare you to do anything about it. That is what I don't understand...why announce that you get most of your music for free and illegally? Why not just do it quietly? Something in the personality, I guess.."stolen fruits are so delicious".....Are they suggesting that everyone do as they do? Do they know the argument that "it's ok for ME to throw trash out the window of my car, because, after all, just a few people doing it doesn't make much difference..."?

It is interesting that the habits of some could not easily exist without many others doing it legally......funny how our minds work, hmmmm?

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Dewey
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:38 AM

I record from my XM radio PCR, connected to my sound card. This method, however, is already outdated: the new radios come with save and pause features built right into theradio itself.

Yes, the hypocrite that I am, I use winmx profusely, I usually disable the filesharing capacity and just take whatever is available. It someone gets angry with me for not sharing with them, I usually don't worry about it, (I have the ignore feature set up for incoming messages as well) they have their perrogative to share and I have mine. If I am refused access for a file by one user I usually just try to find another, 9 times out of 10 I can find the file I want through persistance.

Although I am sure the recording companies are not happy that there are so many downloading these files, it should also be noted that though most files on the internet are still in abundance, it has slowed down the traffic of the file sharers in general. I am not a file sharer myself, and take only what I find. The only way I would share any of my files would be with a friend FTP style, that is trading with indiividuals.

As far as the promulgation of the music, that is pointless, and the recording companies already know this. They couldn't stop recorded tape and Fm radios, The couldn't stop the new XM radio market from storing and recording saved content, they couldntstoppeople from buying used CD's recording them and reselling them after they are stored, they couldn't stop internet radio. They are so many ways and forums to do the same thing nowadays, it is insane for the reocd companies to even worry about this and in realilty, I really do think they do, as far as extracting files on an individual basis.

Its the droves of people that are posting files without permission that they are concerned about. It is the pirating of entire music albums in forerign countries Singapore, Indonesia, Russia, to mass markets throughout the world that is the thrust of their concern. I've seen complete boxed sets of artist on the internet that can be purchased for as little as a dollar in various hot counterfitting places around the world, its an industry for some people not just a hobby for their own perusal and enjoyment.

There various formats, Being able to control all of them is rediculous, technology nowadays and in the past is intermingled profusely with this medium. I would be shocked to learn that the RIAA is actual going to continually follow through on its threats toward individual files sharers in the future. (Please post otherwise, should you learn any different!)

I use what is legally availble to me within the letter of the law. I do not promulgate the sharing of files. I take what is available legally (I'll let everyone else debate the ethics)

I'm not the one posting it all or any of it. If I see it available however I do not hestitate to take whatever I find, the same would be true if I found a dollar bill on the floor, however.

I don't generally buy music, the same was true even before file-sharing arrived on the internet. I've also been recording music on the radio for years, and no one arrested me for doing that either. I haven't seen one kid and his boombox in jail yet over piles of un-credited TDK tape LOL.

I like the hits. I usedto record them offthe radio. Now I do it throughthe XM PCR thorugh my computer.

I also for historic reasonslike having all the songs from a particular year. I go to WABC music radio list on the internet (do a google I can't remember the URL) and download all the songs avialble directly off the charts for that year.

I have every song from 1965, 1967,1968 though 1979 etc. It takeswork to do this though. It becomes more of a hooby than a reliable method of theivery, which is why I believe in actuality, the RIAA, really isn't as concerned as they claim to be about individual users. It's took me years to do this. I do not have my files wide open with a DSL connection and 100 available slots, this is the sophistication I believethe recoding industry is acually interested in, altought they try to spook everyone else into thinking otherwise. My connection is 52k telephone snail modem. I record/ download about 8 songs a day, for my own private use, withthe filesharing option disabled. It is just my hobby and for my own personal use. I am not in the recording and/or record business. I just believe in milking my own technology and the forums that are currently available for all that they are worth, and for my personal enjoyment. If they come after me they've got to find something legallly that I am doing wrong.

If you want to pay at Itunes go ahead, I record movies off the television for my own personal use with the VCR I own and no one has ever thrown me in jail for doing this. The tapes stay within the privacy of my own house, and Im not making 20 copies to sell on the street at flea markets, garage sale stores etc.

If it sounds a bit like I am trying to justify my actions, I guess I will confess soemwhat that I am, but htese technologies and methods are around every corner and in every corner device imaginable. If this wasn;t the direction and the naturally evolution of the media forum for for music and movies, let them placed a devise and a chip or something else into everything that we own: our car radios, our satellite radios, our television sets. The problem most like is not the technoligical advancedment itself, butthe level of crimes that people are tempted to engage in because of the technology. As far as the technology, it is not waning it is actually getting stronger and more diverse. I think private use of recorder file mediums it inevitable. We'd all have to unplug, entirely in every luxerious technology we posess in order to end it.

I think thoughthe RIAA is angry about the current technology, they have pretty much accpeted its reality. Their compeign I believe was mostly set up to remind poeple ofthe abuse in the system, tyring to at least encourage people to cut back on what ultimately inevitable.

For the record, my guilt on download is still there some, but minimal. This technology is not only tempting for us all, but it also inevitable.

Just don't try to DSL link ten computers to your network, open your file-sharing options to 100, and start and ebay store with your new found riches.

Dewey (musicman and typing genius)

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:10 AM

Harpgirl,

borrowing a CD from a friend to listen to it is of course fine. Copying it is different - it provides an additional permanent record, which has been created outside of copyright laws. It is therefore illegal - though I appreciate that it is difficult to enforce the law in all cases. It is certainly immoral: If you want a permanent record of the CD for yourself, buy it, and let everyone who had a hand in making it share in the proceeds; don't try to get something for nothing!

For the same reason, borrowing a book from a friend to read it is fine. Photocopying it to keep a copy for yourself is certainly not fine - same laws and logic as above.

Libraries pay an additional fee to PRS (in the UK) for lending music albums. It's not high, a few pence for each.

A lot of the talk on this thread tries to justify copying works (whether music, books, or works of art) as perfectly moral, just because it can be done so easily with today's technology. Well, it is not (moral). The acid test is this: Would you be happy to advertise the fact that you are copying CDs and books, for all to know? Would you? Really?

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: John P
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 10:47 AM

An interesting quote from Bill D: "I know I'm not going out and buy the CD, so if I copy the song...technically an illegal act...the artist has lost nothing"

Bill, I wish you weren't retired so I could try to find out who your boss was so I could let them know that you think working without getting paid for it is OK. The musician finds or writes the music, learns to play the instruments, buys the instruments, and records the CD. What makes you think they shouldn't get paid for their work? It would be like a retail clerk showing up and running the cash register all day, only to be told that they weren't getting paid for it -- they haven't lost anything, have they?

If the fact that I can do something means it's OK, then our society is in a very bad place. I could, if I wanted, steal a lot of money from the company I work for. I could steal cars. I could litter without getting caught. I'm glad to say I have a sense of ethical responsibility that keeps me from doing these things. The fact that you can easily download music without getting caught and without paying for it doesn't mean you should. If you do it, it just means you are ethically challenged.

Dewey and Clinton -- please don't ever come into my store. I really don't like thieves.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: downloading music
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:49 PM

John...I didn't say I approved of it, and I certainly didn't say I DID it...I was trying to enlarge on the complications of the issues involved. Perhaps I should have not phrased the hypothetical in the first person.

It remains true, for example, that 'if' someone rents a movie and allows 10 friends to watch it with him, the rental company and the movie producer..etc...make less money than if all those people rented or bought it individually....but no one complains about this, as it is totally unenforcable. Likewise, if a movie theater manager sees some kids he knows have no money, and allows them to come in without tickets, there is no 'loss of income', as long as the kids do not occupy seats of paying customers. Illegal? Sure...immoral?..*shrug*...I don't know...it's too fuzzy an area. And it certainly is different than going in a store and stealing an orange, a sweater....or a CD!

Now...if, as I said, someone posts a link to a file of an MP3 of an old, out of print LP from 1965, and I go download it...it 'might' be illegal...i.e., it might still be under copyright, and might be planned for release as a CD 'someday'....but...I've always wanted to hear...ummm...Pete Seeger's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" on the banjo, from his "Goofing Off Suite"...do I go download it? Am I crossing the line? What if it's the entire album?
....this analysis could go on & on, and we know that if George (El Greco) makes a new CD, and I think I MUST have it, but I know how to do some file-sharing thing and get the whole album without El Greco making a penny, I am WAY over the line.

What I have done in the past is to make someone a tape of an old LP album that was either out of print, or not easy to find....and I suppose that I maybe shouldn't have..."hey, Pete Seeger is still alive...go out and look for a legal copy of that!"...right....

I am reasonably competent on the computer, and I know where some music is occasionally posted in MP3 format, and if it looks interesting, I sometimes listen to some stuff, and I DO have a few MP3s on my PC that 'might' be available on a still-in-print CD if I went and looked hard enough.........what I do NOT do is request current music so I can obtain new releases for free. I DO buy some CDs from Dick Greenhaus a couple of times a year...gritting my teeth because I can't afford all the ones I want.

I simply do not know how & where to draw a clean, non-fuzzy line between having NO music that I did not shell out cash for at retail, and finding used CDs or LPs at a sale, and sharing a tape of an old album with a friend, and getting most of my music free by using Kazaa of some other perr-to-peer system...I know *I* won't complain if the industry finds a way to prevent unauthorized copying, and I'll say "tsk, tsk" to the guys who do complain....

It's a really, really, really complex moral, legal, and technological conundrum, and I'm the ex-philosopher who sees all the grey areas. I simply shake my head at those who think it's all black and white.