BS: What defines the English

Subject: BS: What defines the English
From: selby
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 01:49 PM

Sat in Ludlow castle the other day watching the English flag flying, which in days gone by would have flown a flag to show everyone around who's loyalty the castle supported.

I started pondering what identifies the English if you think of most countries there is a identifier, for example :Scotland kilt bagpipes etc: Ireland Guiness Harps leprechauns etc

So can anyone tell me what identifies the English?

Keith

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 02:03 PM

Dunno really. I was born in England but half my ancestry is Irish. I've lived in Cornwall for thirty years and in London and Essex for thirteen years before that but my Lancashire accent is completely intact. I love Italy and Spain and the people there and I go to both countries a lot. The stickers on my car are the flag of St Piran and the Indalo symbol of Andalucía. I much prefer Italian wine to English beer, though I was on the tasting panel for Doom Bar for several years. I'm a European at heart and bitterly regret the current disaster besetting us. Oh, the hard times of old England! So I suppose that one attribute of my Englishness is that I'm bloody confused.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 02:59 PM

There are many English people living in the West of Ireland, all unidentifiable until they open their mouths
The day of the patronising Englishman who insists on talking down to the natives is long gone; I haven't come across one for - at least a week!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:19 PM

Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 04:06 PM

our great cultural achievements....like breakfast

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 05:11 PM

As long as it's with black pudding but NOT baked beans. Who's bloody idea was it that baked beans should be part of the Full Works fer chrissake!

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 05:43 PM

I rather enjoy baked beans on a FE, it's those bloody revolting tinned tomatoes I can't bear. Grilled fresh tomato - yum! Tinned plum tomatoes - heeeeuuuwwweeeee!

And yes, black pudding is vital. And proper sausages - Lincolnshire sausages, preferably, none of that Walls' garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 06:23 PM

I want bacon. I want fried eggs. I'll tolerate toast but I really want fried bread. I want a grilled tomato, top and bottom bits. I want properly seasoned decent mushrooms (not tinned button shite). I want black pudding. I want a decent banger. I want a large pot of builder's tea. Bugger off with your poxy little pot of baked beans. I'm English and I'm proud of it!

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 06:34 PM

a small voice suggests Morris

Football

Stiff upper lip

queuing

church bell ringing

the Rolling English Road (not just a load of Belloc's)

black pudding (yes but hold the onions!)



Now - what defines Staffordshire?

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 06:56 PM

I'll go along with all that with the caveat that the football refers to Anfield.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 08:08 PM

their love of queues, it is one thing they are really good at forming a queue

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 02:59 AM

The English Breakfast? Well, I have no idea who normalised it, but in hotels and similar I have certainly come across Scottish Breakfast, Irish Breakfast and American breakfast, which were all more or less the same thing. The main difference in the Scottish was that if you preferred you could pass on the lot and just have porridge instead. The Irish seemed to be exactly the same, apart from ensuring all the ingredients came from Ireland. The American contribution again seemed the same apart from - personal prejudice here - substituting that brittle greasy red-brown stuff they seem to think is bacon.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:14 AM

The contribution from over the water of pancakes and maple syrup cannot be surpassed.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM

There is no 'definition' of being English, in my opinion - it really depends on where you are and who you meet and mix with.
I've lived in three major cities and visited every county for a long or short period - each place may have had its own characteristic, but even that depends on who you meet and how you respond to them.
Probably, the nearest you get to 'Englishness' is when you meet a bunch of English strangers abroad - then you get a somewhat exaggerated version of what they feel they ought to be - pleasant sometimes but sometimes not (try Faliraki, or rather, don't try Faliraki)
Long live multiculturalism as far as I'm concerned - that's where you get humanity at its best, or will do when the English learn to embrace it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:30 AM

The proper way to spell defence, realise, favour - (feel free to add)

Discussing the weather.

I was once told by a Canadian from Vancouver that she realised why we talk about it, it changes every hour. In her city when there was snow, it was snow yesterday, snow tomorrow and who snows when!

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 04:19 AM

I'll just paraphrase my post from the 'Essence of England' thread.

Having an Italian coffee with an English bacon butty
Washing a lamb biryani down with a couple of pints of Black Sheep
Listening to ska in the local park while watching bowls

and add

Accepting everyone and incorporating their cultures.


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM

"Accepting everyone and incorporating their cultures."
Drink to that Dave, probably with a Guinness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:09 AM

Football??? Rubbish!!

RUGBY (both codes) and CRICKET!!

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:11 AM

"Accepting everyone and incorporating their cultures."
Drink to that Dave, probably with a Guinness
Jim Carroll

except down The Singers Club of yore....

(sorry - couldn't resist that!)

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

No need to apologise, Al. You reminded me to add a good sense of humour to the list and the ability to laugh at ourselves :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:37 AM

Whoops - Ideas come in the wrong sequence and we end up with a sentence that is not English like wot should be spake. Just waiting for the grammar police...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:56 AM

I hate to say it but I prefer American spellings on the whole. They are in no way corruptions of British English. Both derive from a time before spellings in both countries were standardised* so neither can claim to be "correct" (it's usually we Brits who try that stunt). It's just that most American spellings were prescribed by Webster and most British spellings were prescribed by Johnson, two chaps with slightly different ideas. Before them, you can find both ways of spelling on both sides of the Atlantic.

*Standardized?

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 06:10 AM

"Football??? Rubbish!!"
Only when played outside Liverpool!
"except down The Singers Club of yore....
"Don't spoil this with Urban myths Al
I saw Ravi Shankar there, and Bruno Pianta and Sandra Mantovani, and The Batish Family and Kali Das Gupta and Eric Bogle and and dozens dozens Irish, Scots and American performers down the years - not many English clubs could make such a boast
I remember trying to sell a cassette of an Irish Traveller we recorded that had been issued by the Vaughan Williams Library at a London folk club and being told by a somewhat rotund man with mutton-chop whiskers and sporting a Union Jack tee shirt - "sorry we only go in for English songs here".
Maybe that's what defines being English
Sorry - couldn't resist that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 06:17 AM

Hi

I lived in Scotland for a number of years.

Scottish breakfast where I was in the highlands was much the same as a Full English ( with beans) You could also have black pudding and/or white pudding if you preferred it.

My wife fell in love with Haggis for breakfast...not for me though.


My choice of memorable English fare is New Cheshire Potatoes straight from the field with fresh free range eggs, fresh bread (as dippers) washed down with a good draught beer. ( Dave I find it difficult to get Black Sheep on draught here so I drink Boddingtons.)

Like others here I have been around a bit and have a house in Spain, and have met several nationalities. I have found that most of them are great to get on with. I find the Dutch to be very interesting and humourous.

I find it difficult to define the typical Englishman these days as we become ever more Cosmomopolitan. I think that this males us more interesting.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 07:16 AM

well there is hat Basil Fawlty strain within us - no use in pretending otherwise....no riff raff!

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM

When I worked in Belgium I found that I had far more in common with the Dutch speakers than the French speakers. Not sure of the significance but I am sure there must be one :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 07:44 AM

Maybe you had a doppelganger............

Or would that be double vlaams?

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM

"no riff raff!"
Did you know "riff-raff" originates from the French?
Make sure you look under your bed every night - you never know whose crept in while you're not looking!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

When I think of England I think of Flowery Twats. Or is it Fawlty Towers?

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 01:33 PM

are we talking about englishmen here or 'the english' - do we consider women at all on this site?
mostly we have good manners when driving
we (men)(is it the same down south?) love to take the piss out of each other - it's a sign of affection and acceptance
many older guys find it difficult to shake off our old empire arrogance and racist attitudes from 60s and 70s comedy. but some of us try and the rest complain about pc gone mad.
i like to think we were defined by the opening ceremony of the london olympics and despair of how that good feeling has become brexit nonsense and division.
sadly, i think a good many of us like war and having an enemy to despise. we can be self-righteous and pig-headed.
george orwell - we don't like pomposity and arrogance in others, we do like gardens. and small football clubs, and our wonderful pubs and beers, canals, steam engines, gossip and small talk
we like foreigners in ones and twos - but not the idea of them living here
we like to know our place and mistrust those in other places.
are there any women who contribute to mudcat? why is that? do we like women or merely the idea of women?
we bore easily......
that sounds a bit shit, really - some of us love our radical traditions, the music, the writing, the countryside, small unassuming birds. some of us are open to the world and the world of ideas - some of us closed up tight and living in a mythical past.
some of us miss joe strummer and others miss the empire. some like bridges and others like walls

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:43 PM

Good post, Pete.

Yeah, there are a few women. I think they are rarely the main antagonists in the more robust and argumentative threads and we could reflect on that. Who was it who said "Shall there be womanly times? Or shall we die?" Not Maggie Thatcher, for sure, or Theresa May. Maybe you stop being a woman when you start being a Tory...

I have terrible manners when I'm driving. It's bad enough when Mrs Steve is in the passenger seat, but when I'm on my own it's an opportunity to use every swearword and profanity in the book, and loud (windows safely up, natch). It doesn't half allow me to let off the steam that I have no real reason to need to let off...

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:24 PM

England: A Beginner's Guide (YouTube)

Funny but entirely accurate...

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM

I'm glad I'm not with you when you are on your own then Steve.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 09:02 AM

I read recently (it may be an urban myth?) that there are 28 countries in the world that the British (by which we normally mean the English, really) have not invaded.

As for the Universal Breakfast, any tomatoes in it should be grilled or fried till soft, and preferably caramelised a little, which can be done by adding a sprinkling of brown sugar on the top, then turning the half-tomato over.

It's a thing of constant cultural change; I recently had it in Goodenough College in London expressed as rashers, scrambled eggs, mushrooms, two kinds of sausages and hash browns. There were also tomatoes available but they looked unhappily half-raw, as well as poached eggs, fried eggs, baked beans (shudder) and other… things.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM

Friends who travel to England seem to delight in posting photos of their food when faced with the "English Breakfast." They always look like a full day's calories in one sitting, washed down with enough grease and salt to send one to the hospital. I'd question whether it's something you really want to brag about. It's like Amish cooking here - recipes are as robust as that, but in a world where they eschew technology and burn several thousand more calories a day than the typical Brit or American their metabolisms can process that much food and grease.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Stu
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 02:45 PM

Sets you up for the day, a decent full English. Don't need to eat until teatime then.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM

Have to say, my first day's breakfast in Goodenough College was the full fry; my second was granola followed by a fresh fruit salad and sour yogurt - it set me up equally if not better for the day.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:59 PM

There is of course a song about it though in this case it's about the economic effects of the Irish devotion to fried breakfasts compared to the leaner, meaner, continentaller version.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 07:59 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:43 PM
Good post, Pete.

Yeah, there are a few women. I think they are rarely the main antagonists in the more robust and argumentative threads and we could reflect on that. Who was it who said "Shall there be womanly times? Or shall we die?" Not Maggie Thatcher, for sure, or Theresa May. Maybe you stop being a woman when you start being a Tory...

Not really a valid comment. We could just as easily respond with "you stop using your reasoning facilities when you start voting Labour"

I'm not making that claim, but it is painting with just as broad a brush-stroke as Steve Shaw attempts.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:36 AM

"Are there any women who contribute to Mudcat?"

There are, although many seem to have fled or passed away. Some of the most vitriolic and vituperative arguments I can recall on this forum have been between women - Lizzie Cornish, Ruth Archer, and the now departed Diane Easby (formerly Countess Richard) spring immediately to mind. And they tended to be 'Above The Line' too, rather than in the BS section. Their shenanigans would make the antics of our current crop of mutton-head Usual Suspects look like a Sunday-School tea-party.

Wonder what happened to LC and RA?

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:43 AM

"our current crop of mutton-head Usual Suspects "
Your pesistent sniding of members who take a serious part in arguments you choose not to tale part in is somewhat cowardly Baccy
Maybe that is an English trait
How about if people started talking about interfering neutrals?
Would make this forum a far more unpleasant and precarious place
"stay out of the kitchen" as the saying goes, and don't shout insults through the door either
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:50 AM

They always look like a full day's calories in one sitting
When I am at Sidmouth & IVFDF the days are for burning calories.

Porridge, as wonderfuel as it is, is not enough for such festivities.


but it is painting with just as broad a brush-stroke as
Quite! Politics are (sic) belief systems. Just like all the other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:54 AM

Lizzie kept sending me messages about red indians being dead clever and knowing the earth's secrets.

Finally I said something which made her reach for her tomahawk. can't remember what.

She's probably still to be found in pow wow with the Sidmouth Mescaleros.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:06 AM

You don't have the Full English every day if you have any sense, Acme. As a matter of fact I never have one unless I'm staying in a cosy B&B somewhere, where I may indulge as a treat. About once a year I might have one in The Lounge in Truro, where you can have one at lunchtime. As Stu says, it lasts you right through the afternoon. Though I wouldn't make that a golden rule...

I'll commit heresy by declaring that I'd much sooner have streaky bacon than back. Far tastier. Though bacon is bacon and I'm not that bothered how it comes. Bacon butties in my house are always streaky. Why anyone would sully the taste of bacon in a well-buttered butty by slathering tomato ketchup on it is utterly beyond me.

You completely missed the sentiment of what I said, Nigel. Hardly surprising, as you Tories do love to crow about your being the only party to produce women prime ministers.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:44 AM

You completely missed the sentiment of what I said, Nigel. Hardly surprising, as you Tories do love to crow about your being the only party to produce women prime ministers.

No, I didn't miss the sentiment, I responded to your comment: Maybe you stop being a woman when you start being a Tory...

As for you Tories do love to crow about your being the only party to produce women prime ministers who brought that subject up?
Just the result of an inferiority complex because you're stuck with Corbyn? No, there again, if you're discussing Prime Ministers you also had Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:30 AM

Silly, Nigel. Your response showed that you missed the sentiment. I actually joined the Labour Party because of Jeremy Corbyn, the next prime minister, I hope, so how that means I feel "stuck" with him is, well, beyond me. Do move swiftly on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 07:32 AM

i bet Jeremy knocks up a pretty good meat free full English that would be acceptable to all minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 01:21 PM

Thatcher/Blair
Two sides to of the ame coin
Thatcher was the fascist that climbed into bed with a mass murdering dictator and declared that those who whished to put him on trial for his crimes were "running a police state"
Blair narrowly escaped being convicted of war crimes for his lying role in Iraq
It isn'tt what you call yourself that defines you - it's your actions - both represent Right politics that give precedence to the wealthy rather than the people of Britain as a whole.
Hopefully Corbyn will live up to the socialist politics he espouses - few other leading Labour politicians have done so for many decades.
Time for a cange of policies rather than politicians
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:46 PM

Mr. Red nailed the ahem food but peteaberdeen has his finger on the pulse of England.

For arguments sake to reduce England to two words would start a fight.

Class entitlement

which the US has now surpassed with super capitalism oligarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 02:33 AM

Acme - 17 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM

Friends who travel to England seem to delight in posting photos of their food when faced with the "English Breakfast." They always look like a full day's calories in one sitting, washed down with enough grease and salt to send one to the hospital. I'd question whether it's something you really want to brag about.

Very few people in the UK do eat what is called a full "English Breakfast" and way back in the day when like the Amish you talked of we burned more calories than we do today no-one ate a "Full English Breakfast" as their first meal of the day. Routine on a farm for the Horseman was to get up at around 4 o'clock in the morning and feed the heavy horses, he'd then go back and have a glass of small beer and eat some bread and cheese. Back to the horses to tack them up and lead them out (You could not work a horse immediately after feeding they had to stand for about an hour before they started work). The horses and farm hands would work for three or four hours then come in and have what is now called a "Full English Breakfast" - it becomes a different prospect after you have been at work for a few hours. Lunch back in the day for a farm labourer was a cold snack eaten outdoors and then a hot meal at the end of the working day after all the animals had been seen to and cared for. I would have thought that our Country Dweller would have known all that.