English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM

You fancy yourself way too much, WAV, your 'life's work' isn't worth half a minute of one's time, let alone half a day, or half an hour.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM

Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that; if you check everything I have published, you will NOT find any evidence of me criticising any particular culture or race (I am, rather, well travelled and studied in humanities/anthropolgy); we are back to a small group of people, who don't like immigration being questioned (for whatever reason), resorting to desperate false defamatory cowardly tactics. In a democracy, we ARE allowed to question immigration.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

In a democracy you are also allowed to be racist, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to stand by and let it go unquestioned, and I believe we've seen this particular post before. They're only cowardly tactics if you don't agree with WAV. That small group of people, is one hell of alot bigger that you think, dearie, so get used to it. Multiculture is the answer to a vibrant, exciting community.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM

"Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that;"

no, this is YOUR definition of racism. And a rather infantile one it is, too. You have said that you think England would be better if it were less multicultural, and THIS is the reason you oppose immigration.

Racist, racist, racist.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

Now sue both Ruth Archer and myself, WAV, we've both called you what you are, racist.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,ESAM
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:59 PM

Richard "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells" Bridge has a problem, it appears, with PCs.

That's one sure way to get your collar fingered.

I never knew before that Mudcat was such a hotbed of anti-racist coppers.

RB IS Jeremy Clarkson and I claim my five pounds!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Student
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

Your words are falling on Def (Shepards') ears WAV.
The world isn't ready for your take on the order of things.
Your detractors aren't really showing themselves up in very good light either.

This thread should be entitled "English Folk D(is)egree"

Where's the ref?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:06 PM

Well, I say either do or shut up. Some folk (pun intended) are quite content to sit on the side lines and do absolutely nothing, it's been my experience that that sort generally don't have anything to offer, to begin with, so they are best ignored.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM

Only one other person has bothered to give an opinion on this (from above): "any opinions here on my on-thread suggestion, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?"..any thoughts, Student?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM

Racism is a slippery word, it can mean different things to different people and all too often it is used as a substitute for rational argument. But that's not to say it isn't real.

It appears to me that WAV is perfectly happy that other cultures exist, he is respectful of them, he just doesn't want them here. He doesn't think that's racist. Others do. Make up your own minds.

There are plenty of threats to "good English folk culture", but most of them come from the apathy and even hostility of the English themselves (for example see this letter from yesterdays Times), not from immigrants, whether from other parts of the British Isles or from further afield.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

WAV said, rather desperately, ", that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England."

and these mysterious powers that be are?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

WAV, here's a question YOU haven't answered. Who are those powers that be. Reminds me of one I asked you. Just what is English culture?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

are you going to respond to the one response you got, WAV (with which several other people have concurred)? Or are you going to ignore it because it's not the answer you wanted?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

Well, WAV, I'm giving you the chance to respond to my question. Who are these mysterious powers that be?

I am also of a mind, currently, to take this whole use the English Trad. by certain groups and individuals for their own dubious ends, to a different level. It's called blogging, WAV, you might be familiar with it.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

I just read that on Morris, thanks, Howard...in contrast, here's what I placed on my site just after the London Olympics bid was won -

SOME ENGLISH DANCES

English Country Dance, Clog Dance (Lancashire/Cheshire, Durham/Northumberland), Step Dance, Morris Dance (Cotsworld, Molly, Border, N.W. Clog Morris), Yorkshire Longsword, N.E. Rapper,
Maypole Dancing, Helston Furry Dance (Cornwall), Great Wishford Grovely-Day Dance (Wiltshire), Whalton Baal-Fire (Circle) Dancing (Northumberland), 'Obby 'Osses (Cornwall and Somerset)

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-
boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment), Bells, Brass, and (a recent one) the Stylophone

(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis: I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

Yeah Def Shepard,

I think that would be a very constructive outcome
to result from all this
spiralling upwards into the analhole of infinity
repetative irrational nonsense.

..in that case I guess we should thank WAV for inspiring
such a positive new blog.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

And once more, WAV avoids the question with more of his cut and paste nonsense, well WAV it's time for me to do or die, the blog account is set, and I'm ready to write. WAV cannot take credit for this, I've had this in mind for awhile, after viewing a website by a group calling itself The English Music Festival, a good idea, but it's attracted, shall we say, some of the wrong element, a link to Justice For England was the start.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM

In other words, DS, you've decided to compete a bit more fairly - we DO agree on that.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

Compete, am I competing? Nooooo WAV, you completely, as usual, misread me. I said I'm taking this whole thing to another level, to a different forum. I'm taking the use of the English Trad., by racists, to my blog. I loathe and detest you, and by any legal means will I fight you and your kind. We don't agree and we never will agree, racist

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM

don't forget this lot...

The Steadfast Trust

and give us your blog address once it's up.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM

Ruth, I'd like your imput in this, let me know, via PM

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

"I love the world being multicultural" - WAV

Im sure the world are glad to hear it. The implication is clear, you don't like Britain being multicultural. That's your prerogative and I'll know how and if to read your posts in future.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

Bye bye WAV. I'm leaving this discussion because of your continued refusal to answer even the most basic questions. I'm leaving because of your continued use of the same tired quotes from your "website."
I'm leaving because as the originator of the thread, you have refused to engage in any type of argument/counterargument-it's either your way or no way apparently. I'm leaving because you, so recently interested in this music, as opposed to those of us who have been listening and studying for a long time (By the way, in my case that is 21 of my soon to be 40 years)have deemed yourself to be some type of expert in this field. I'm leaving because you are wanting to impose some type of rule upon a musical form that by itself has no such rigidity. I'm leaving because you choose to defend yourself with your "life's work" as if anything that I have seen in there has any bearing whatsoever on any given point. Sorry, but tai chi, morris dancing, and tennis have no significance for me as to being an answer for any of the questions asked of you. Please, like so many other of my questions or comments to you, ignore this post as well, I'm sure its because you really can't answer. Now for a little multicularism. Let's see what CD's I have with me today. Ali Farka Toure, Sheila Chandra, Balkan Gypsies, Brass Monkey, Clarence Gatemouth Brown, Talking Heads, The Clash, Khaled, Lila Downs,Jack Lukeman, Tulla Ceili Band, Fairport Convention, Divan Gasparyan, Eliza Carthy, Stevie Wonder.......................

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,221Centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:55 PM

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM

Baggsy irishenglish's CD collection! :)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

btw..

"I am, rather, well travelled and studied in humanities/anthropolgy"


so were a lot of state funded 1930's/early 40's

German anthropologists......!!???


gotta love Discovery Channel !!!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:06 PM

WAV, once more said, ""I am, rather, well travelled and studied in humanities/anthropolgy"

well I am too, but it doesn't, fortunately, make me the same as you, WAV. It's an obfuscation on your part, WAV.
By the way, you STLL haven't enlightened us as to who those mysterious powers that be are :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:09 PM

I believe in the English nation and the United Nations, Glueman.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:11 PM

Here we go, " I believe in the English nation and the United Nations"

Yet another of WAV's collection of sayings, which mean absolutely nothing. obfuscation again

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

I might believe in the collective wisdom of Patience Strong and the efficacy of Joan the Wad, it doesn't mean they're provable. I arrived at this site afer Googling and found Rachel Unthank under an approved list of singers on some nationalist supremicist page. It's given me a twitch ever since.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

"Just what is English culture?"

And there we go, the crux of the matter.

Whether we like it or not, there is often a large grain of truth in stereotypes. A stereotype is like a caricature, exaggerating certain features. But it is always instantly recognizable.

From the viewpoint of an American, and a reasonably well-educated one at that, not to mention a faithful watcher of PBS, which plays a lot of British dramas, both period and modern—I could, if I wish, attempt to come up with a stereotype of the English. But—I would immediately run into trouble, because going from the English Channel to the Scottish border, I could come up with a couple of dozen stereotypes!

Aye, there's the rub!

So, just what is this English culture that WAV is so eager to preserve and protect from insidious outsiders?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,WAVWATCH
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

There's a "MIDI to WAV" thread opened below this one.
Is this a fiendish trick to convert us all to support the English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:50 PM

Funny that, WAVW, having watched Spring Watch (BBC), I was just working, via Audacity software, with WAV, on some English carols I'd recorded last Christmas.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM

What is the English culture you want to preserve.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

This looks like another question WAV is avoiding. No answers WAV? Just like who the mysterious powers that be you eluded to, some way back, are?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

One final comment, then I'm going to dump this thread from the Tracer and try to forget it ever happened.

WAV, today: immigration is not the subject of this thread, but, when people have asked, I have made brief attempts to answer

This is untrue. Here's the first reference to immigration in this thread:

I love our world being multicultural, and think positive nationalism (with eco-travel and fair-trade, rather than yet more conquest and immigration) is the best way forward
WAV, three days ago

Third reference to immigration in this thread:

racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done. Questioning immigration, loss of culture, and the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law are other matters.
WAV (who else), two days ago

(Second reference: that would be me, in response to the first quote above: WAV, if you say another word about immigration we will have the repatriation argument again, and that's a promise.)

After starting this thread, WAV chose to bring his views on immigration into it. He was warned to drop the topic and told that other posters saw his views as racist. Nobody asked him to give us his views on immigration; when he did, nobody asked him to explain himself. To begin with nobody asked him anything, except to keep his views on the subject to himself. It was only because he was unwilling - or unable - to do this that we got into the pile-up we've just seen.

Now, away with this thread. Let's talk about something more interesting - ooh, I don't know, folk music or something.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM

Big Brother has just started...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM

I think we should toss WAV out :-D sorry!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

To Volgadon - the English carols I just worked on, e.g.
To PE - just in case you come back, you didn't post the posts I was responding to...I was ASKED on these matters.
Back on-thread: any opinions here on my suggestion, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

So the sum of English culture is carols?

WHO are the powers that be?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM

No one can answer you WAV, not because - unlike you - they want to put links to their website/poetry/life story instead but because, despite being asked, you won't define your terms: who on earth are "other powers-that-be in England"?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM

Who are these people...answer the bloody question, if you can.You know what, you can't because you're making the whole thing up. There is no one, it's your stupid xenophobic nationalism, trying to blame others (read immigrants) for the imagined woes of England, and of course your lack of employment (do you blame the immigrants for that as well?)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

"And Richard Bridge, your English Folk Degree? The Newcastle degree programme covers this area already. Are you one of those bureaucrats who have this urge to create make work projects? You know, the ones that really annoy the British tax-payers? Sounds like it to me."

Can I have half a pint of what you're on? I think a whole pint might be too much.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

Well, Richard Bridge, suffice to say, my answer is no to a stand alone English Folk Music Degree. There is that easier for you to understand?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM

This could have been an interesting thread if only WAV would enter into a discussion of his views instead of simply repeating himself, and quoting his bloody awful poetry and meaningless aphorisms. We may not have agreed with him, but we might have respected him a bit more if he had been prepared to put forward reasoned arguments and evidence for his propositions. I don't think that's too much to ask of someone who, as he keeps reminding us, has a degree and has therefore presumably been taught how to think and how to discuss an issue.

I must admit, when this started I thought we might persuade WAV to reconsider once we had demonstrated the absurdity of his statements. Instead, I can almost admire his stubbornness in clinging to his beliefs in the face of almost universal opposition. Almost, but not quite. It is one thing to be mistaken (we've all done that) but for a supposedly intelligent person not to be prepared even to listen to others' views, especially those who have more experience and more expertise in the area than him, is a sign of fanaticism.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

It could be said it is a weakness of the Scottish and Irish courses that their names imply exclusiveness. The course at Newcastle is by the same token more inclusive, and by all accounts DOES turn out fine musicians and singers who perform English traditional music as well as other traditional musics.

I'm sure it all comes down purely and simply to the issue of 'bums on seats' - as discussed quite a number of times above by both me and Ruth Archer among others. From the university's point of view, why restrict your market for such a course? Given that any music department of any university studies music from everywhere, it was a really bold step for Newcastle to start a traditional music course at all. Well done them and they should be congratulated on it.

As I say, it may even be that the Scottish and Irish courses have got it wrong ... or that their market research showed they had enough of a market for such a course. Christ almight, is there really any need to get so het up about nomenclature, if the substance - the content of the course, the teachers, the students (and eventually the graduates) - proves itself worthwhile?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

Well, no, not really, at the risk of repeating myself, the music doesn't need any academics, it'll always be there, regardless. No, I don't believe a degree programme in English Folk will either add or detract from the music, so then I ask the question; What's the point? It sounds like well the Irish and the Scots have theirs; why can't we have ours? and that simply isn't a good enough reason.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Master Baiter
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:37 PM

It is I the great MB who is at fault for WAV's pathetic state of affairs and its is I who shall put him right with a jackhammer up his bung. Keep an eye out behind and on your behind WAV. A reaming you shall have in the best English tradition!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:40 PM

The real reason the Scots/Irish/Welsh are so protective/paranoid about their culture is that for many centuries their more powerful neighbour sought to smother their cultures. They are still looking over their shoulders. For most of the twentieth century we in England have celebrated Burns Night, Hogmanay, Paddy's Day far more than we have celebrated St George's Day. And now its our turn to get paranoid and the flags are coming out, the morris dancers are actually getting bookings, and somebody wants an English Folk Music degree!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM

500.Ihave been out done a gig, and this is still going on