BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:06 AM

Not having seen any real Greeks bare, all I have to go by is those statues, which, in my opinion, don't seem that gifted. Maybe the models were just cold.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:25 AM

LOL !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:34 AM

Way off base here, Azizi. The use of "black" or "dark" means many things in many cultures. My own daughter, whose name is "Ciara" or "Dark One". In the early Irish culture this had more to do with depth of feeling/insightfullness than with color. It did not denote evil/bad in any way.

I have always had reservations about referring to African descended peoples as being black. They are many delightful shades of brown, but not black. I only started using the term because the African descended community wanted it thus. I feel that society has an obligation to correct its ills (such as racism), and if that community expresses its objections to stereotyping and its effects (such as the effects African descended kids) then society has an obligation to correct such legitimate complaints. But we still must evaluate these things. And this term, and its connotations, have nothing to do with (in general) with racism. When a singer describes a black hearted villain, s/he is not making a racist statement. Now, when songs refer to darkies, that is another thing. I can't imagine why the citizens of the State of Florida have put up with this as long as they have.

I certainly mean no offense to you, but these things are honest.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:37 PM

I have seen some Greeks bare, but their gifts were all above the equator.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:05 PM

Athena Greek goddeth oneth, Amoth

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:18 PM

Amos Amoth amat?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:55 PM

Amos Amoth amat

Uh.....I came, I saw Amos nekkid, I tossed lunch?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:01 PM

No that's vene vidi venal Spaw.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:01 PM

"I see, I saw, thou Spaw, I spewed" is the more rigorous form, Pat.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:03 PM

A rimmus A writtus Arunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:36 PM

I know where the hostility went. pdq and I found it, it's in the "water will run out" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:41 PM

Big Mick - "I only started using the term because the African descended community wanted it thus."

Exactly! That is why all of us "white" people back around the late 60s (and ever since) began using the term "black" as a racial designator. We were asked to do that BY "black" people. The African descended community in the USA...or their more vocal spokespersons at any rate...demanded to be called "black" as a point of pride! They wouldn't accept any other word. That's why it's so damned annoying to now be harassed by the children or grandchildren of those people when one innocently uses the word "black" in a multitude of other contexts.

What someone called an African-descended person before the late 60s, if someone was being absolutely polite and fully respectful toward their equality was this: "negro". Then we were told that no, that wasn't good enough. "Negro" had to be replaced with "Black".

The same sort of silly stuff has been raging around for the last hundred years over what to call Amerindians too...and no one can seem to agree on the perfect word. I'm sure that a new word will presently be found, though, since Native North American and First Nations Person are both just a bit too cumbersome to put up with for very long. ;-) I wonder what the new word will be?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

In the early 1960s there were statements like "ah, to be young, black and gifted!"

There were slogans like "black is beautiful!"

There were also groups like the Black Muslims and the Black Panthers. We were told that 'Negro' now considered a slur.

Eventually 'black' was elevated to 'Black', the proper name for a group of people.

So, for the last 40 years or more, Black is the correct term.

It was chosen and accepted by the group in question, something that most groups never had a chance to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:11 PM

Correct, and since they themselves freely chose it, it hardly seems fair for them (or their children and grandchildren) to also object to the long-established use of the word black in a great many other unrelated contexts, none of which have anything to do with references to someone's race or skin color.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM

pdq, I agree with everything you said in your 04:04 PM post except that "Black" is an informal referent, the formal one being African American. Both are appropriate. Also, the group referent "Negro" is has been retired, and sometimes is used in race as a slur to refer to a Black American {a Black "UnitedStater"} who acts or thinks in subservient, "Uncle Tom" or "Aunt Jemima" ways.

**

It seems that folks here may have misunderstood what I was trying to say-that words such as 'black' and 'white' sometimes have hidden cultural connotations and that these color references can sometimes have negative consequences.

If you're interested in this subject, there are plenty of print resources out there.

And if it does nothing else, this side bar conversation can serve as an example that Mudcatters can have discussions without hostility.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:46 PM

Still floggin' that dead horse Azizi?
Now.....for a bit of real nut crunchin' hostility try Footstompin.com

The Scots do it miles better :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:58 PM

The formal term "African American" would not apply to European, Asian, Australian, or other world residents who are Black, would it? Would it ever be heard in Latin America (where there are an enormous number of Black people)? No. It looks to me like this is an issue that is only really an issue in the USA...although it slides over the border into Canada some too, mostly because our media is pretty much dominated by stuff from the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:18 PM

We have a sizable Black population in the US also that cannot be defined as African. I know a woman from Haiti who is somewhat bemused by it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST,Birmingham
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM

In Britain coloured people have certainly good rights. If I went for a job and there was a coloured person also applying and I got the job,they have the right to an appeal on the grounds of equal rights. If they got the job, I have no right to question the appointment. Yes there are very fair rights in balanced Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:44 AM

For those who may be interested, this morning I posted a comment on another Mudcat that hopefully-clarifies the comments that I made on this thread.

That other Mudcat thread is:

thread.cfm?threadid=98442&messages=122
BS: The term Afro American?

I also wrote more on that thread on the subject of group referents and racism.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:46 AM

Oops!

I meant to write-"For those who may be interested, this morning I posted a comment on another Mudcat thread that hopefully-clarifies the comments that I made on this thread".

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

I got so worried about matters of colour, and being PC that I came up with this solution

Scarlet, Lemon, Cerise and Jade,
Tangerine, Purple, Azure,
I think that it's a rainbow, it's a rainbow,
But I'm not quite sure.

I'll get me dreamcoat.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:57 AM

LOL Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM

I think it's sad that we even need titles. We are all Americans, and where our ancestors came from has little to do with where we are today.

So, to carry it just a bit further, whay am I not called English American?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:37 AM

That was in a hostile tone, Guest :-) Ah, let the man be, he tried to bring the thread back to topic once, but nobody listened, so all he's done join'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:48 AM

At least he posted under his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM

There have been three purposefully hostile threads started by 'Guests' lately. So, the hostility is just beneath the surface. It will emerge.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:39 PM

Peace, you're right and you have tried to point it out to us each time.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:01 PM

Hi, eanjay. Hope things are good.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:40 PM

Were not the Native Americans dubbed "hostiles" by the Europeans who massacred cheated and almost exterminated them?

Sometimes hostility is the only choice....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:55 PM

Man. We haven't changed much. In Iraq, where our troops are being shot at by all sides of the conflict, it would be simpler and more accurate to just call them 'the hostiles'.

Bring them home.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme song challenge
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:32 PM

Where has all the hostility gone,
Long time passing,
...

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:21 PM

So much for Bush's "surge".

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

I thought they'd said "Bush's urge"

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST,tolerance
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:11 PM

"War is over, if you want it War is over now" John Lennon said that I believe. But does it really matter who said it, but just take it as it is.

Quite simple, but true. Then again people just over complicate things.