BS: Colin Powell supports Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:54 AM

Right. You actually have to get paid first.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:55 AM

Gee, some of you guys are a little hard on us religious people.
Some of us go to church because we believe the world can and should be a better place, and in church we find ways to try to make it so, and people who want to work with us to make a better world. And in making ourselves and our world better, we see ourselves as worshipping God. Religious faith has been a primary motivator for a good number of people who have been involved in civil rights, antiwar, and other social justice movements.

That's certainly not always the case, but a good number of religious people find church to be a place of kindness, wisdom, social justice - and God. Go to matthew25.org to hear Martin Sheen talk about it. Go to Sojourners for another presentation of the same sort of thinking.

I don't want to get into yet another argument about religion, but I thought it worthwhile to point out that there are other perspectives. But it is true that church is a very good place to get away from Riginslinger....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM

"Failed GI", huh? Count the stars, bub.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

"Give it a rest, for God's sake! (And I don't mean that literally...)"


                      Yes, LH, I totally agree that the god thing can, as has been, beat into the ground. But we were commenting on Powell's endorsement of Obama, when Ron Davies, for the 348th time, demanded an explanation as to why one would support McCain if one were opposed to what he terms "organized religion."

                      Though he's been given multiple explanations, he doesn't seem to be able to grasp the reality of what has been posted right in front of his face. It's as though, there is some magical answer out there that will satisfy him, but only he knows it and he's just waiting for somebody else to stumble across it.

                      One might rationally lable this phenomenon the Rumpelstiltskin syndrome. It's a malady that Ron Davies seems to suffer from in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: kendall
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

Personally, I don't give a damn if he/she worships toadstools if he/she can do the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:40 AM

Does anyone here really think Obama will be allowed to take office after he's elected?


Yes. I do.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:29 AM

By the way I understand that Colin Powell has endorsed Obama for president!

Or do I have the wrong thread?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM

I quite agree with your diagnosis of Ron's peculiar problem, Rig. ;-) He's like a dog with a bone...he just won't let go of it, even though there's not one molecule of meat left anymore on that bone.

Hey, Joe? Right with ya there. ;-) I was not disparaging yours or anyone's faith, just pointing out that there are a lot of people who go to church primarily out of habit and for various common social reasons rather than out of a deep faith in God. Many of them are extremely vague about God when it comes right down to it...

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM

"It's all about race"...

The only htthing I see as being all about race is the effort to defeat Obama's candidacy by any means possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM

I suppose there's a sort of logic in Rig preferring Sarah Palin to Obama.

If she were to become president, perhaps because McCain dropped dead at the shock of winning this election, I am sure that her spell in office would tend to put an awful lot of people off the whole idea of religion. Whereas Obama in the White House might have the opposite effect.

But that kind of speculation really belongs in another thread. I imagine there is still some mileage in talking about Colin Powell's backing Obama.

The inevitable stuff about it being a matter of one "black" man supporting another seems pretty lame. The key reason, I am sure, is McCain's selection of Sarah Palin, and the depth of irresponsibility and lack of judgement Powell saw this as implying on the part of McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

Dear Dubya,

I guess you thought Stone's flick was the October surprise. But payback's a bitch, isn't it-- it's me, your old pal!

Have a nice legacy,

~Colin

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM

Some debunk on Powell. Rig's notion that Powell makes it into a racial issue is a smear of the lowest muck-feeding sort, and I can only surmise it is the sign of an uninspected life.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM

I think it's pretty apparent from Colin Powell's public history that it is absolutely NOT about race. Powell has been consistently intellectual and deliberative in his utterences. I suspect if anything his endorsement of Obama was in spite of race if anything, with the awareness of just the kind of reactions he would stimulate among many of the anti-Obama persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:26 PM

Thinking that it's all about race is just an easier concept to grap for some people. It's scary for a lot of folks out there to think that Powell made his choice because of his convictions - and that it's the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Slag
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:32 PM

Is this the thread on church? I see it quite differently than Alice. I see the godless, i.e. atheists as doing the tail wagging the dog! They are continuously attempting to deny anyone from a religious background a public voice in politics waving the non-existent "Separation" clause in their faces.

Church, "ecclessia" in the Greek merely means those "called out". Christ said "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst." That's church! A small group of believers together to worship God in truth and in spirit. As for denominations, Christ clearly taught His disciples that he had "other sheep, not of this fold." Anyone who believes their particular group has a lock on Gospel Truth should pay close attention to that statement.

As for LH and Rig, Hmmmm? I just can't see LH hiding out in a church! But! Desperation has caused some mighty unlikely incidents to occur. I'd have to put that one under "Stranger Than Fiction".

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: gnu
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:34 PM

Sorry... haven't had time to read the whole thread, so, again... sorry if this was said earlier...

Well, of COURSE Powell HAS to supposrt Obama... after all, they are both intelligent, well educated, dedicated to public service... you get the pic.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:43 PM

But Rush Limbaugh said uneviolently that
quote: "Powell's canadicy ,er, Powell's endorsement is only about race, its only about race, its only about race."

Limbaugh's gesture during this pronouncement was tht of half heartedly covering his mouth as if passing along a secret.

Pat Buchannon put forth a similar statement with even greater bravado on the Chris Matthews show.

Now these people are giants to the Republican faithful as well as those dependent upon the GOP for their entire income.

These giants can not be considered closet racists and bigots, they are the up front "leading the charge" heros of the like minded conservatives.

Surely they can't be wrong!





Yes they are
and stop calling me Shirley.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: gnu
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM

Shirley, you jest?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM

I wonder if former U.S. Senator/Defense Secretary under Clinton has endorsed anyone? He's also a moderate Republican with some stature. He's also from Maine.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:12 PM

Bigots they are, and bigots, for all; their posing, they remain. Rush Limabaugh has the insight of a polecat stuck up a lampost; you'd think he'd be able to see something, but he's too busy smelling bad to notice anything.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

"But Rush Limbaugh said uneviolently that quote: "Powell's canadicy ,er, Powell's endorsement is only about race,..."


                      If I'd known that blow-hard was going to come to the same obvious conclusion, I wouldn't have brought it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM

Gee, Rig, you should face up to the resemblances!! It might give you pause and a moment of self-reflection.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

"Uneviolently"???

Okay, "violent" we know.

And the ending "-ly" is "like" in disguise.

"e-" is a prefix meaning "out of".

and "un-" is of course a negative.

So we have "not out of something like violence"?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:55 PM

Rig, I can hardly believe you're serious on this one...but you obviously are. You really can't think of any rational reasons Colin Powell might have other than race to endorse Obama????????? You really think Powell is that shallow a human being?

Wow. That is mind-boggling. Practically the entire world is hoping Obama will win instead of McCain. Are they all doing that because of Obama's race? If your election was in Canda, McCain would get about 20% of the vote. It's even worse than that in western Europe.

My, my...I never realized how great it is to be Black if you want to get elected president in America. By gollies! Who'da thunk it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM

I'm not second guessing Colin Powell's motives. I'm simply anticipating how it will be perceived by the voting public.

                  Maybe the rest of the world would be better off if Obama got elected, but I don't think the US would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM

btw..
As the President ploughs on with the war, citing September 11 when no Iraqis were connected with September 11, it's timely to remember how Colin Powell, doing his duty, was given fake evidence of WMD to present to the UN..

Former aide: Powell WMD speech 'lowest point in my life'Friday, August 19, 2005; CNN.com

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell presents the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003.

A former top aide to Colin Powell says his involvement in the former secretary of state's presentation to the United Nations on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was "the lowest point" in his life. "I wish I had not been involved in it," says Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a longtime Powell adviser who served as his chief of staff from 2002 through 2005. "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life."

Wilkerson is one of several insiders interviewed for the CNN Presents documentary "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown." The program, which airs Sunday at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET, pieces together the events leading up to the mistaken WMD intelligence that was presented to the public. A presidential commission that investigated the pre-war WMD intelligence found much of it to be "dead wrong."

Powell's speech, delivered on February 5, 2003, made the case for the war by presenting U.S. intelligence that purported to prove that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Wilkerson says the information in Powell's presentation initially came from a document he described as "sort of a Chinese menu" that was provided by the White House. "(Powell) came through the door ... and he had in his hands a sheaf of papers, and he said, 'This is what I've got to present at the United Nations according to the White House, and you need to look at it,'" Wilkerson says in the program. "It was anything but an intelligence document. It was, as some people characterized it later, sort of a Chinese menu from which you could pick and choose."

Wilkerson and Powell spent four days and nights in a CIA conference room with then-Director George Tenet and other top officials trying to ensure the accuracy of the presentation, Wilkerson says. "There was no way the Secretary of State was going to read off a script about serious matters of intelligence that could lead to war when the script was basically un-sourced," Wilkerson says. In one dramatic accusation in his speech, Powell showed slides alleging that Saddam had bioweapons labs mounted on trucks that would be almost impossible to find.

"In fact, Secretary Powell was not told that one of the sources he was given as a source of this information had indeed been flagged by the Defense Intelligence Agency as a liar, a fabricator," says David Kay, who served as the CIA's chief weapons inspector in Iraq after the fall of Saddam. That source, an Iraqi defector who had never been debriefed by the CIA, was known within the intelligence community as Curveball."
After searching Iraq for several months across the summer of 2003, Kay began e-mailing Tenet to tell him the WMD evidence was falling apart. At one point, Wilkerson says, Tenet called Powell to tell him the claims about mobile bioweapons labs were apparently not true.

"George actually did call the Secretary, and said, 'I'm really sorry to have to tell you. We don't believe there were any mobile labs for making biological weapons,'" Wilkerson says in the documentary. "This was the third or fourth telephone call. And I think it's fair to say the Secretary and Mr. Tenet, at that point, ceased being close. I mean, you can be sincere and you can be honest and you can believe what you're telling the Secretary. But three or four times on substantive issues like that? It's difficult to maintain any warm feelings."

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

Which is probably the real reason he endorsed Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:34 PM

As I have said...and posted here...for 2-3 years, OF COURSE many Senators voted for giving Bush freedom to enter Iraq, and OF COURSE Powell made that presentation to the UN in good faith. What else were they to do? They were told that we had 'good evidence' that Saddam had WMDs and planned to use them...they were giving the president, who was supposed to KNOW, the benefit of the doubt! Still, a few, like Obama, were suspicious and not convinced that war was a good idea.

It became clear after awhile that Bush/Cheney and company flat wanted an excuse to be seen as heroes and liberators and did precious little to examine those flawed sources of intelligence! It was what they wanted to hear! There was a program on TV a few days ago about 'Curveball' and his history and credentials - and enough was known even back then to make his stories suspect....remember, Curveball LEFT Iraq in 1999 for Germany.

I actually suspect Powell feels chagrin at not having been able to GET the full story and do independent checking before making that UN speech.....but there is sure no doubt he felt used and deceived. I am surprised he has said so little about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

His second in command has certainly said what he thought about it--I don't recall his name--but Powell probably felt being in the position he was in, he couldn't say what he thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

It's not surprising really that he is reluctant to admit a failure of judgement. Generals as well as politicians don't like to do that. And since his stock-in-trade is his being seen as a man of good judgement and a safe pair of hands, it would be particularly hard for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM

Actually, I think it has more to do with, he was the Secretary of State, and he wouldn't think it was proper to turn on the current administration, regardless of what they did to him.

                McCain, of course, is not part of this administration, so he doesn't feel obligated to McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM

If you watched the interview, he made very clear how sad he was at having to disappoint McCain. He would gladly have supported McCain if the man had shown better judgment in choosing a VP and some other things...like slimy campaigning

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM

None of you heard what Powell whispered to Brokaw as the camera was fading to black? He whispered, "April Fool."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM

I'm pretty sure Powell has a calendar, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Slag, 0432 - you are not serious? The religious are not denied their own voices. We denounce as invalid only those imaginary voices they hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM

The sky is falling?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:53 PM

Yep McGrath of Harlow, it surely is. Watch out, it's headed for England!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM

Seriously, I can well understand why Colin Powell turned on the Republicans. After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him? I mean other than naming him first African American to head the Joint Chief's of Staff, first African-American four star general, first African-American National Security Adviser, and first African-American Secretary of State.

I wonder what Barak O'Bama offered him? Must have been pretty good, though, since he said Race had nothing to do with his decision.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM

So he should be a grateful ______ and put aside his principles and judgement and shut up and keep on supporting his old bosses, Doug?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM

As I said earlier, I think it was probably McCain's selection of Sarah Palin that decided it.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:16 PM

Chappie James was the first African American four-star, attaining that rank (in the Air Force) in 1975. Colin Powell was a Lieutenant Colonel at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:37 PM

For those of you who might be tempted to think this was about race... Forget it... It's about intellegence... Seess that McCain and Palin have decided that the path to victory is to purge the Republican Party of intellegence and so Powell had to go... And vice versa...

Yeah, seems like a strange stategy to me but if they are right and somehow capture the White House I think the handwriting will be on the wall and that anyone with an I.Q. on the plus side of 100 might start figuring out which other country they'd like to live...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Alice
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:41 PM

Coin Powell has now learned to recognize "bad intelligence" when he sees it.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:47 PM

>>After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him? I mean other than naming him first African American to head the Joint Chief's of Staff, first African-American four star general, first African-American National Security Adviser, and first African-American Secretary of State.<<

I think that relates more to what he had to offer THEM.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:11 PM

It may be, DougR, that there are deeper motivations at play here besides personal gain and status. Perhaps something akin to patriotism, a sense of ethics, a desire to work for the good in the world, and maybe even hope.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

"Seriously, I can well understand why Colin Powell turned on the Republicans. After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him? I mean other than naming him first African American to head the Joint Chief's of Staff, first African-American four star general, first African-American National Security Adviser, and first African-American Secretary of State." DougR

Good god. Do you realize how racist you are? Say it isn't so, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:40 PM

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/cartoon/2008-10/42990355.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:49 PM

Powell did not turn on Republicans. He proudly proclaims that he is still a Republican.

He may have turned on the neocons however.

I think even Doug R gets that.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:55 PM

The sky is falling on the neocons. They pulled it right down on themselves, praise be!

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
From: Mike in Brunswick
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:15 PM

Would McCain be in a better position now if he had selected someone like Powell and attracted more independents? Or is the religious right so important to today's Republican Party that someone like Palin was inevitable?

Mike
(formerly Guest, Mike in DC, but we've moved to Maine and I've joined Mudcat.)