Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Ana
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 02:09 AM

...or another distoibing incident I'm aware of (a repitition of,that should NOT be encouraged!) - whilst a sweet sounding acappella women's group were trotting out their Irish stuff at the unexpected venue of a beer fest, a member of the next sets group came on stage. He was walking in front of them and setting up his equipment (not phallic of course). At the end of the song, the female lead told him politely and firmly, that this was not "etiquette". He then swore at and insulted her(and no doubt her mother); as she recoiled in shock, her hand some how shot out and connected with his face (gasp) he then pushed her... Well (wots a girl to do?) she kicked him! Apparently he no longer plays the basson, opting instead for the piccollo. Ironically the front row was inhabited by a motorcycle club - they chose not to become involved as the matter was clearly under control.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 04:19 AM

Barbara, in a setting such as the one you described, with all in attendance participants in the session, anything other than silence--or appropriate singing along--is unacceptable, I would think. Even whispered conversations between other people who are going to expect you to listen to them is disrespectful, not just to you, but to those listening. As for the creep loudly ordering dinner during your song, others in the group should have picked him up and tossed him out so he could place his order in the bar.

If the forty or fifty people attending the Irish sessions at the Starry Plough, many of them drunk, can (and do) maintain a respectful silence when soloists take over during the session band breaks, there is no excuse for less attention in a song circle. If the session has a leader, he or she should make that clear to everyone; if not, then a pause between songs might be time for a brief discussion of session ettiquette.

--seed

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 10:55 AM

During our local 3 day session event, many of us will have been drinking from about 12pm until about 3am and sometimes some of us (and I am one of them) have got so drunk that we can no longer play but (I hope I'm not tempting fate here) sing 1987 when I started attending I can not rebember any trouble amongst the musicains even if some us have occasionaly had far too much we still manage to be quite and listen to others etc.

There was spot of bother in this period that I missed and I believed that one was quickly sorted out. This involved a couple of people gate crashing a party (ie they had nothing to do with the music not even listening) and when the host told them that they weren't welcome, one of them took a swing. I don't know the person in quetstion but apparantly on of our visiting players from Manchester was quite handy with his fist stepped in and knocked the offender clean out with one blow!

In my exeperience, the drink related problems have nearly always been caused by outsiders rather than the players. I do a semi session (any player is welcome to join in if they are brave enough) semi pub entertainment thing on a Sunday night. I am very tolerent (and in this environment customers shouting etc. is something that you expect and put up with) but this year, I have twice had to approach that landlord and got 2 people barred from the pub. One of them wanted a fight with me because I refused to do The Fields of Athenrye for the third time and the other one sat down next to me and reached accross me, picked up my pint of Guinness and started to drink it - it was not an accident.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:58 AM

Alcohol is the problem. People go to bars to "loosen up" which is often a euphenism for becoming obnoxious. When I played bars I selected material that could penetrate the alcoholic haze. Thoughtful ballads and story lines that required concentration on the part of the audience didn't work. Some could pull it off. Bob Gibson was a master at it. To play bars, you gotta' be there in that there's an identification taking place. You have to be in the "bar space". I don't go there so I have trouble with those scenes. When people drink, they don't want to pay attention too closely. They want to be entertained which means to me the want to laugh or be shocked in some way or have background music for their conversation which generally consists of raucous laughter and animated talk. If I play in that kind of environment, I'd prefer to be background music. It's easier.

I think the pub scene is different in England and Ireland than it is in America. When I sang an American folk song in an Irish pub in Spittal, everyone listened intensely and identified with the performance. The same was true when we visited "O'Neils Ballad Lounge" to hear a group in Bundoran, it was the same experience. Drunk or no, the audience was "into it". It' probably because the people there are very close to their folk roots.

I don't have any advice except that there's no worse audience than a drunken American. By in large, a gross generality I realize but we are so jaded when it comes to entertainment.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 01:00 PM

Frank, I think that you have raised a good point by suggesting being close to their folk roots but I for one don't have any real folk roots. I was born in Shropshire, England (of English parents), moved to North Wales, then to the South of England before moving back to North Wales in 1978 and I don't even know where I consider to be my real home let alone folk roots.

Most of the music that I enjoy playing is Celtic (and mainly Irish) dance music and I certainly can't claim any roots connections to that music. I do have a lot of feeling (or think I have) for the music though and would suggest that it is that feeling or interest that makes the difference when it comes to beeing willing to shut up and listen.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: WyoWoman
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 04:50 PM

My first question re. the fellow Barbara initially asked about was whether he might be hard of hearing. Sometimes people whose hearing is impaired speak very loudly and because they can't hear themselves, they think others can't. They just don't have the mechanism with which to be aware.

And sometimes people who are in the initial stages of Alzheimer's or other diseases that affect the brain do inappropriate stuff like that and are quite testy about it. In any case, if it were me, I'd find out if the behavior were noticeable to others in the circle and I certainly would want some company if I were going to meet with him.

And, he might just be an asshole. In that case: Give 'im no quarter. Nice, schmice. Nail 'im.

Re. general etiquette for singing circles: In New Mexico, the circle I sang with worked it out so that the singer said before s/he began a song, "I'm going to do this one a capella as a solo," or, "I think I do this one in D, but please keep the guitars fairly quiet so I don't trash my voice trying to sing over you.." Or, "If you wait 'til the chorus, I think you can hear a couple of very nice harmonies to join me with..." or whatever. The point was, we stated at the beginning how we wanted to do it, and people generally honored that. The singer got to say how s/he chose to have that one song go, then the next person got to decide how her/his song would be...

The downside of this is that some of the spontanaeity goes out of it, but it does keep you from feeling stepped on. And then, if you hear a great harmony that you'd love to do on someone else's song, maybe when they head to the kitchen, you can follow them and say, "Hey, I was thinking that maybe when my turn comes 'round again we could do that song over and I could do this harmony I heard with it..."

I'll be very interested to hear the outcome of this situation...

Good luck, ww

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 10:52 PM

Frank, actually the saloon goers in Northern Ontario can give anyone a run for their money when it comes to making life miserable for a performer...the difference is though, that when you take the gig, and accept the money, you know what the rules are ahead of time. Funny thing though, as you pointed out, in Britain they're more likely to listen if they think the performance is worthwhile...and you don't get requests for Dylan, Neil Young or James Taylor.

Rick

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 05:44 AM

I mentioned having a few problems with people on my Sunday night do. I had a first last night. I normaly rest my banjo on a chair or a table when I'm not playing but last night as there was nowhere suitable, I lay it on its case and somebody who had a lot to drink fell off their chair.

Fortunately, I had got back from the bar and was able to catch the person and the table before they hit my banjo but a drink got spilled in the process and the resonator of my banjo ended up getting filled with lager and I got a little bit wet when I picked it up.

I know that this was an accident but another thing I have found with most of the non playing public is that they have no respect for other peoples property (musical instruments). Value isn't the real issue but some of these instruments are also quite expensive - even my banjo which is nowhere near the most expensive one on the market currently retails at over £1200 and something that I had to wait for years to afford and hope will last me my lifetime.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Barbara
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 08:15 AM

Jon, someone here a while back was singing the praises of a little gimmie that clamps to the edge of the table and supports the neck of your instrument. (Of course, if the clod knocks the table over, this won't help). I can't recall the name offhand, either. I think it was someone from UK or the continent that first mentioned it.
Perhaps others will remember, if you're interested.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Margo
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 09:33 AM

Barbara, you may already have solved your problem, but here's my .02. It will always be difficult to talk to someone effectively when you are upset or resentful. You may feel guilty, doubting whether you are in the right or not, but it's probably just guilt from being angry. If you can't cool down, I agree that a third party can help.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 10:27 PM

Barbara, I have seen the type of clamp that you have mentioned and I think that it might me a good idea for me to invest in one - thank for the suggestion.

Would you believe that this particular clod was a woman in her 50s? and that she is also somebody (as I do with the rest of her family) I consider to be a friend!!! With friends like that...

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Barbara
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:20 AM

..you could start a 12 step group.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:53 AM

Barbra, pardon my ignorance but what's a 12 step group?

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 02:17 AM

Jon, the classic 12-step group is Alcoholics Anonymous: There are 12 steps to recovery. First is recognition of the problem (i.e., admitting one is an alcoholic), and so on. --seed

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 02:06 AM

when my daughter-in-law saw her first acoustic music jam session, she characterized it as a "guitar player's support group" - a pretty fair assessment!