BS: Killed for being black? Florida today

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:44 PM

"It would seem likely, as the racially charged shooting has cast a spotlight on Florida's so-called "Stand Your Ground" law, which was passed under then-Governor Jeb Bush in 2005 and allows the use of guns or other deadly force as a means of self-defense in public places without first trying to back off from a confrontation."

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828476#ixzz1pbb4zWPh

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:22 PM

I will explain it again, it is not guns, A federal standard of conceal carry would fix it .. that and getting rid of the fckin gun shows

they pass law after law and yet still allow anyone to walk into a gun show plop down cash and walk out with anything ... no bground check required. A state like Florida, if you can breathe you can get a CCP

nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:35 PM

That guy was on the cell phone, he was ordered by the police to not leave his vehicle. Instead he confronts the kid and kills him and claims the Florida "stand your ground law" that says if you are in fear of your life deadly force is ok ... NUTS ... in NYS he would have been immediately arrested for murder since the law requires you to avoid the situation first and foremost. They allow some of these states to let anyone carry weapons. Then again most of them have a drinking age of 18 or so also (don't know about Florida). There is no wonder why most of the really nasty gangs are in that state. Texas is just as bad, they have gun shows 1 mile from the Mexican border so we can really arm all the drug gangs properly and they walk back over to Mexico unchecked... when is enough enough. It will take a federal firearms act to put the leash on this stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:18 PM

So, let me ask you....would you trust those who run guns (fast and furious) to drug cartels to restrict our guns???...How about knocking off THEIR bullshit!

The biggest abusers of the gun laws, and abusers of guns is not the 'people' but the government....both sides!

It's OK to circumnavigate the Constitution, and invade countries(with guns)..so I guess they feel entitled to circumnavigate the Constitution on a host of other issues as well!...as long as they can sell it to you!
If the Republicans do it....its 'national security'..if the Democrats do it...its pandering to a new group they decide to elevate to 'victim-hood'...for the sake of justifying just another bit of nonsensical emotionalizing of legitimizing corruption!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:20 PM

""In any case he should not have been murdered for walking down the street and guest Bluesman is still an asshole because he is assuming that he was doing something illegal and deserved to be killed.""

I couldn't agree more.

Strange, when I posted an almost identical assessment of Bluesman following his highly offensive comment, some bright spark saw fit to delete it.

Don T.

--wasn't deleted, Don. It didn't take. Use your "back" button to save the text and try again, if you're not sure it's going to work. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:30 PM

Sanity I believe in the 2nd Amendment ... but even Thomas Jefferson said that criminals should not possess guns .. I will find the exact quote. The problem with the gun shows is no background check .. none cash and carry

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:35 PM

That reminds me. I have to pop 'round the County Courthouse in town and fill out my form for a Pennsylvania LTC (License to Carry), a pro-forma process that will cover me if I should happen to forget to put my .22 rifle "varmint gun" into its case on the way to and from the barn, but also permits me to carry in the open or concealed, a hand-gun.

I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, but I also realize that disarming everyone but the scofflaw nut-jobs makes nobody safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:39 PM

Greg
   since you have a new york state carry permit, it will be just a formality in PA, make a copy of your permit before applying they will issue one no problem at all since NY is so tough to get one. I have both

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:42 PM

I don't have a NY permit. Nor NJ, where I formerly lived. But our Bucks County Sheriff is apparently a "well-ordered militia" believer and, along with most PA sheriffs, gets the whole process done in less than an hour. I don't intend to parade about with a side-arm; I just don't want to get grief for having my varmint-gun in the back seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:43 PM

Please do, olddude...by the way, do you think that the British would have thought Washington and Jefferson would fit into the category of being 'criminals'?...or that Washington and Jefferson would have considered themselves 'criminals'?
Just wondering...

Oh, and by the way, Warmest Regards to You!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:02 PM

"Then again most of them have a drinking age of 18"

I do not think that is the case. I was in Louisiana when I heard that They were the last to make it 21. The Feds blackmailed them into it with Highway funding,

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:31 PM

Stand your ground-make an orphan

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:32 AM

As someone noted above, the Florida "stand your ground" law may mean it is not possible to bring criminal prosecution against Zimmerman, but like someone else said, I think it likely the Feds will step in, and like yet some else said, there will likely be grounds for a civil lawsuit.

None of which will bring this young boy back to life.

I don't question that Zimmerman perceived himself and his neighborhood to be threatened. Unfortunately, laws such as Florida's "stand your ground" laws do not hold people accountable for how realistic or reasonable their perceptions may be. I hope a way is found for Zimmerman to be held socially accountable.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that racism is at work here, both individual and institutional. I suggest that all of us are racist or tribalist to a greater or lesser degree. We are each accountable, however, for understanding that about ourselves. We are each capable, and therefore accountable, for recognizing the human propensity for stereotyping and to take that into account as we examine our own internal processes. We are each capable, and therefore accountable, for examining our internal processes, assumptions and cognitive distortions.

There are people here I really respect who are insistent on the right to bear arms. I understand we psychologically built differently.   While I share many values with some of these people. I do not see, however, how rampant gun ownership and personal "rights" around bearing arms, especially concealed weapons, trumps the greater safety to our modern society to reducing the number the number of guns in the hands of private citizens. You may feel safer knowing you have a pistol in your belt, glovebox or bedside table. I don't feel safer for you having that gun.

In my 60 years of life I have been mugged once, robbed at gunpoint once on a city street, experienced a home invasion, had people attempt to break-in three times while I was at home, experienced one break-in that included an attempted sexual assualt, and had a crazy boyfriend drive through three counties with a rifle pointed at my head in the front seat of a Ford F250. For a few brief years while living in the country I owned a .22 rifle. I shot one groundhog ravaging my garden with it, and one deer just to see if I was capable of killing another animal for meat. Regarding groundhogs, I discovered box traps. I have not needed, in my life, to kill game to eat. I know that I can if I have to. I also know that meat doesn't appeal so much when I take the life, or participate in the skinning, gutting and butchering of life - whether I shoot the game, or catch it in a box trap and kill it by other means. I especially know that in terms of personal safety, personal possession of a gun would have been of little value in any of the human agressor situations I have dealt with,and quite likely would have increased the danger of the situation. I can certainly conceive of a situation where me having gun could save either my own life or the lives of others. But my own assessment is that when I balance the risks to myself vs. the documented risks to the society in which I live, I am better off without a gun, and even more importantly, my society is better off and safer without rampant gun ownership in the 20th and 21st century.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:17 AM

Janie -- amen, kudos and thank you, especially for that last paragraph. I shall save your post in my "commentary" folder for future reference.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:46 AM

Never mind King Canute [to whom history has given the wrong footnote] or Don Quixote, Bill D. Other countries can control their citizens, more or less, by legislation. You would obviously start by criminalising the carrying of unauthorised weapons [making authorisation difficult to get, not near-automatic] & work on from there with some determined law-enforcement. It would take time & effort to take effect; but you all over there, even those who are opposed to the automatic right to bear arms, seem to be too scared or too reluctant to try ~~ the point of my previous post. All you are doing at the moment, every time an incident like this demonstrates the absolute necessity of doing something of the sort, is flapping your hands helplessly and saying "Oh dear!" Just look back, Bill, at the helpless tone of that first post of yours to which I replied, to see what I mean.

Other countries can do it. So what is wrong with you guys? Thought you were supposed to be the leaders of the world or something.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

The Feds have stepped in.
Meantime, the young man's girlfriend has spoken with a lawyer. She was on the phone with him during the chase and shooting. Looking worse and worse for Mr. Zimmerman.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:03 AM

I've come to this late, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything.

MtheGM, the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms. There are some people who claim that even the legal requirement for a *license* to own a gun is unconstitutional.

If that amendment were somehow repealed or modified (which, I guarantee you, will not happen, for a number of reasons), there would then be the sticky problem of removing literally tens of millions of privately owned firearms, many of them unregistered and illegal, from the reluctant hands of their owners. (Honesty compels me to add that the overwhelming majority of gun-owners are rational, law-abiding people who never shoot anyone. And the slogan is unfortunately true: if guns are outlawed, the outlaws will still have plenty.)

Whatever the other facts of the present case may be, Zimmerman appears to have been licensed to carry a pistol. That doesn't give him the right to use it whenever he feels like it, but all I'm talking about is gun policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:11 AM

Yes, Lighter, I know all that. We all know all that. But amendments to the Constitution can be repealed [Prohibition!]. And you all spend all your time breast-beating and doing nothing about it. I am sure you can rationalise it all most adequately to your own satisfactions, individually & severally. It just seems a little bit contemptible & pathetic (not to say comic), all this agonising, to most of here in the rest of the world.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:02 AM

First, bad as this has been so far, the Justice Department will investigate this as a hate crime as it meets the actual requiement to do so.

Florida has taken a law used in 25 or so other states to protect pweople who use deadly force when they are backing away from the situation which has placed them in harm's way.......true self defense. Florida went nut which they so often do and wrote their law allowing a person to stand their ground when in harm's way which makes no sense and allows vigilanteism to take over. Hopefully this will bring down that dumbass law.

The mayor, police chief, and others will be meeting with the Justice department and this case will turn in a different direction. The girlfriend is encouraging news but without some solid statement, the local police are pretty screwed here thanks to this stupid law.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:35 AM

Packing a Gun Makes You Think Everyone Else Is Too

There are plenty of reasons not to run round wielding a gun, but here's a new one; holding one makes you think that other people are holding guns, too. And that is not a desirable kind of paranoia to find in someone wielding a weapon.

A study conducted a Notre Dame University found that holding a gun shifts cognitive bias, making a person holding one far more likely to assume that other people are also holding one.

Gizmodo

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:53 AM

I'm agreeing with MtheGM again.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

""I am sure you can rationalise it all most adequately to your own satisfactions, individually & severally.""

Yes! And you do that by conveniently forgetting that the right to bear arms in the Constitution is a limited right.

I do not (being a UK citizen) know the exact words, but I believe the gist of it is that you have a Constitutional right to bear arms against an opressive government.

As I read it, this does not include carrying rights for use, or defence, against fellow citizens.

The weasel word justifications by the NRA and Southern redneck gun nuts cannot possibly be taken seriously when weighed against the violent execution of a seventeen year old child carrying a bag of sweets, who was heading back from the local shop to his mother's house.

Who is looking after HIS rights?

From what has happened to date, NOBODY!...and especially not "Florida's Finest", the appointed law enforcers.

I should say that, in these circumstances, Trayvon Martin's parents might be argued to have a Constitutional right to take up arms against those authorities, and who could blame them if they did?

Let's hope the Feds do come down on Zimmerman like the wrath of God, and on the local police and DA also. I would wish they would be not just fired, but jailed, for not taking action.

The local authorities have opened the door for vigilantes to go out and kill black people with impunity. There must be something criminal in that.

Gandhi was right!

""American civilisation would be a good idea!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

Please read carefully. As I said, the Second Amendment will not be repealed.

Too many people want guns. Many of them are outraged by even minimal gun control. No legislation calling for repeal of the Second Amendment will ever get through a Congressional committee. It will not even be proposed. Too many people want guns.

Too many people wanted booze, too. And they didn't mind if they made   mobsters rich to get it. That's the main reason Prohibition was repealed, and only a few years after it began. Prohibition wasn't part of the Bill of Rights.

I'm just explaining what's what. The breast-beaters would be more helpful if they'd propose a workable solution. Remember that stricter gun control has been a major issue in the U.S. for nearly half a century (and it has gotten a little stricter).

Stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:18 PM

If you had followed my posts for 10-12 years, you would see that I have suggested everything I can think of to get across the foolishness of the gun laws in this country.

I have suggested limiting the amount and type of ammunition that anyone can buy. I have recommended that the 2nd amendment be clarified to reflect the difference between 1789 and 2012...or totally rewritten.
I have suggested having extremely strict laws about who can carry a concealed weapon.... and much more.

But... I am a pragmatist who sees VERY clearly how the system works....and as I said, amending the Constitution requires agreement! People wanted to drink... so getting rid of prohibition was fairly easy. They also want to "keep & bear arms", so repealing or rewriting the 2nd amendment would NOT be easy. I repeat... the NRA spends millions keeping the status quo alive, and most legislators see offering any revision to the 2nd amendment as effectively ending their term in office....and right now, that is how it would be in most states. Maybe Oregon would go along...maybe not.

Even **IF** such legislation were passed and the amendment somehow ratified (I wouldn't hold my breath unless I looked good in blue) there are those many, many millions of guns still out there... and during the voting and ratifying process, there would be many more sold!
You see, many of these stalwart "defenders of Liberty" **believe** that any attempt to change the law or constitution is exactly what they have stockpiled guns to prepare for! They view the attempt as a governmental plot to control their lives! It makes no difference if they are deluded... they believe it...and they have guns!

(Note...guns are not like alcohol. Booze is gradually consumed and the process of getting more can be made 'harder'..(though as we found out during prohibition, not at all impossible)...whereas guns just sit there, not expiring and not being depleted by use.

As to being able to " ..control their citizens, more or less, by legislation."...is Syria able to? Even there, people are finding way to obtain arms to fight an obviously oppressive regime. In the USA, the arms are not only already in the hands of "the people", but there are so many ways to hide them in this huge area.

Many people here believe in the bumper sticker that says: "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

Yes.. we SHOULD 'do something', but it will take many, many small steps...like, as I said, tobacco.

It is difficult for smaller countries with different forms of government to comprehend the different mindset here! Even if 53% would agree to ban guns, they would have no idea how to approach the 47%.☺

*I* will continue to write, argue & plead for sanity and revision of the system, but I get ONE vote....

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:57 PM

The guy is not guilty of any crime otherwise he would have been arrested. Clearly this thug was in this area and up to no good.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:30 PM

Troll alert

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:51 PM

If you turkeys are gonna rehash the gun debate yet again, I wish you would start your own goddam thread and not cram it in this one about a murdered child. I know it's simpler, but... it's simpler.
------------

Stand Your Ground fathers: Trayvon Martin's killer should likely be arrested, doesn't deserve immunity

The fathers of Florida's controversial Stand Your Ground law implicated in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin say the man who shot him to death probably should be arrested and doesn't deserve a self-defense claim of immunity.

Former state Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley say the law they passed in 2005 was designed to protect citizens by giving them the right to "meet force with force."

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/ ...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:35 PM

I thought I heard today that a federal investigation had started.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:42 PM

Jeri's point is well-taken, and though it is all to easy to slip into 'causes' after such an incident, I have started a thread specifically for comments about guns and laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:00 PM

Both the FBI and the Justice department as well as several other agencies including a grand jury are now in action so we should see Zimmerman under arrest soon.

The Florida law is an overreach. Many other states have strong "backing away" laws which draw the lines far clearer. Quite a few people commented on the Florida law when it passed that it would lead to shootouts.........................It is a bad law and poorly written and even more poorly implemented.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:08 PM

AP story in the Richmond Times-Dispatch:

The phone call that recorded Martin's final moments was disclosed as the U.S. Justice Department opened a federal civil rights probe into the Feb. 26 shooting and the local prosecutor convened a grand jury to investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:19 PM

Five years since Florida enacted "stand-your-ground" law, justifiable homicides are up (Tampa Bay Times, October 17, 2010)

(excerpted)

That's because of Florida Statute 776.013(3), which took effect five years ago this month. The old law gave you the right to protect yourself with deadly force inside your home. The 2005 law gives you the right to protect yourself in a park, outside a Chili's, on a highway — just about anywhere.

You need only to "reasonably believe" that pulling the trigger or plunging the knife or swinging the bat is necessary to stop the other person from hurting you.

Reports of justifiable homicides tripled after the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Last year, twice a week, on average, someone's killing was considered warranted.

The self-defense law — known as "stand your ground" — has been invoked in at least 93 cases with 65 deaths, a St. Petersburg Times review found.

In the majority of the cases, the person's use of force was excused by prosecutors and the courts.

From the article (data assembled from reports in major newspapers):

Reports of justifiable homicides in Florida have spiked.

For the first half of this decade, the state counted an average of 34 justifiable homicides a year, as few as 31 and as many as 43.

That continued in 2006, the law's first full year.

But the next three years brought these numbers:

2007: 102.

2008: 93.

2009: 105.

The first six months of 2010: 44.

---

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:24 PM

Like I said...........and thank you Becky!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:25 PM

Sounds like Florida has a 007 law - license to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:05 PM

The "Stand Your Ground" law is the reason that Zimmerman is not under arrest. When he says "Self defense!" and the the other key witness is dead... not much can be done. (At least, that's the way it seems to play out.) Hope that the expanding body of evidence and the investigation of civil issues will bring some semblance of justice to the situation.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:17 PM

Why isn't someone making the point that "stand your ground" seems to say you can shoot almost anyone you don't like and claim "self defense"?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:27 PM

""Why isn't someone making the point that "stand your ground" seems to say you can shoot almost anyone you don't like and claim "self defense"?

Unless, of course, YOU are black! Then it would be an instant murder charge, a swift prejudged conviction and, in all probability, the death penalty!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:45 PM

Bill, I think that will be investigated, and I HAVE heard/read people asking the same question.

This can't possibly be considered self defense. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, even though the police dispatcher told him NOT to, and pursued Trayvon Martin. Judging by the phone call he made to the police where he talks about seeing a suspicious-looking, probably-black male and complaining about how they always get away in a pretty calm-sounding voice, I think it was possible he just wanted to force a confrontation and shoot somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:47 PM

Bill.......As I stated above, early on a number of Florida lawmakers and others said this law would lead to shootouts. It brings the professional vigilante onto a legal footing! It really is nuts. I think this case will bring this law back into the news enough to see some action in repealing it.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Bottom line here is that the shooter was instructed by law enforcement to leave the kid alone and they had folks on the way...

Yet after that the shooter stalked the kid and killed him...

The prosecution rests...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:31 PM

I predict that Zimmerman WILL be in jail soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:12 PM

I'd agree Bill. I have no legal training or qualifications, but I reckon I could prosecute this one and get a conviction.

Of course the prosecution will have to think seriously about the case being heard elsewhere, with the Mayor, the DA and the Chief of Police, doing their very best to load the jury in favour of this "Pillar of the Community".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:14 AM

"Justifiable homicide" has increased three fold since the enactment of "stand your ground." The law has not decreased crime as some have argued
here repeatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:08 AM

Why are liberals sticking up for Trayvon Martin when they should support George Zimmerman?

My guess is it's because they can't stand their own cowardice. George was protecting his community from a 'suspicious' outsider - George's own words. Clearly, George can be heard screaming for help, and liberals hid in their houses, because 'they didn't want to get involved' - also on tape. Absolute cowardice. Thank God George was able to defend himself from this vicious attacker.

Did you know that Bob Dylan's real name is Robert Allen Zimmerman?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:00 AM

I have worked out why 'some people' dont have membership here .

Its so that they can post absolute crap , and NOT get any nasty facts sent by PM pointing out what crap they are spouting !

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:15 AM

So if Americans have a right to make reasonable provisions for their own defence (as the NRA would doubtless assert) then I suppose young black men will be forced to conclude that they should all be carrying guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

GUEST Bluesman - Have you listened to the 911 cals ? Where did you hear that it was Mr Zimmerman who was screaming for help ? and why , pray , would a man with a gun scream for help ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:27 AM

"they should support George Zimmerman?"
From this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

SCHOOLBOY'S DEATH SPARKS CIVIL RIGHTS ROW
FBI to investigate after killer cites self-defence law
United States Nico Hines Washington

The shooting of an unarmed black school¬boy in Florida has forced the US Justice Department and the FBI to launch a federal investigation after his killer escaped arrest by citing controversial self-defence laws.
Trayvon Martin, 17, was walking home from a shop carrying a bag of sweets for his little brother when he was shot dead by a neighbourhood watch leader who thought the boy might be "up to no good".
Almost a month after his death civil rights leaders, an international petition and a campaign by prominent African-Americans has forced the federal Government to intervene in the case.
Police in Sanford, central Florida, had claimed that there was no reason to doubt the words of George Zimmerman, 28, who said that he had shot the teenager in self-defence. Under the state's "stand your ground" law, introduced by Governor Jeb Bush in 2005, Floridians are allowed to use lethal force to defend themselves in public places if they feel threatened.
Mr Zimmerman's story began to fall apart under the glare of the national media when officials released a phone call that he made early on the evening of February 26. The neighbourhood watch "captain" asked the emergency services for assistance in dealing with a suspicious looking man.
"This guy looks like he's up to no good," Mr Zimmerman said to the police operator. "These ass****s. They always get away."
Hearing what sounded like heavy breathing, the police handler asked: "Are you following him?"
When Mr Zimmerman confirmed that he was in pursuit, the operator asked him to stop. The boy, who had started to run away, called his girlfriend to say that a strange man was following him.
Neighbours from the gated Twin Lakes community, near Orlando, heard a com¬motion and called the police. One of those calls appears to have inadvertently cap¬tured Trayvon's cries as Mr Zimmerman caught up with him. "I recognised that as my baby screaming for help," Sybrina Fulton, his mother, said. A few minutes later her child was dead.
When police officers arrived at about 7.20pm Mr Zimmerman told them that he had been forced to defend himself from an attack. Previous provisions in self-defence laws had demanded that citizens retreat before using force but those limitations were removed under Mr Bush and local police said that they had no choice but to let the man go free. Similar gun laws have since been adopted by 20 states.
After more than three weeks of protest a central Florida prosecutor said last night that a grand jury would be convened to reconsider the evidence. That announce¬ment came after the rare intervention of federal law enforcement agencies.   
A spokesman for the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division said that there would be an independent review of the investigation while the Congressional Black Caucus accused the Sanford police department of displaying a "blatant disregard for justice".
Tracey Martin, Trayvon's father, has given a series of television interviews in which he has claimed that his son was racially profiled "He knew he was being followed and tried to get away", he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:39 AM

Yes Terry, I have listened to the calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:50 AM

Some apparent facts here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

I have done a little more digging and it seems most probable that

1. Trayvon Martin had no prior record of being charged or convicted of criminality
2. Zimmerman had at least one previous record for assault.   Public records show he was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped. His neighbourhood watch activities had sparked complaints from residents. The tapes of calls seem to record him calling Martin a "fucking coon".
3. The policeman who initially refused to arrest Zimmerman, Sergeant Anthony Raimondo in 2010,declined to arrest Justin Collison, who brutally attacked a black homeless man, leaving him unconscious and breaking his nose. Collison, who is white, is the son of a Sanford police officer and the grandson of a former Florida judge. Collison was intoxicated at the time of the unprovoked attack. Also, a Youtube video captured the attack while it occurred. Despite having possession of the video, Raimando still refused to arrest Collison. Police only arrested Collison after the national media released the video and criticized police handling of the case.


At the moment I find it hard to envisage a clearer case of a racially motivated pursuit and murder - a case of "walking whilst black". How Zimmerman could pick on Martin, chase Martin, and shoot the unarmed Martin and still claim that he reasonably thought he was acting in self defence is wholly baffling even under the fairly ridiculous and ill drafted and thought out Jeb-Bush signed "stand your ground" local law.

That law however does make a good case for federal pre-emption to create a US wide consistent law of homicide.