Ewan MacColl

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 01:03 PM

Welcome back - pull up a chair
We could do with more well- thought-out and intelligent comments like yours
I spent twenty years in Ewan and Peg's company and lived with them for a short time - I loved them both and was a recipient of their open-handed generosity and knowledge throughout the time I associated with them
Never heard Ewan asay anything resembling your seven word summing up from either of them though - if I had, I'd have been forced to rethink my opinion of them
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:54 AM

Shoals of Herring
Ewan MacColl
With our nets and gear we're faring
On the wild and wasteful ocean.
Its there that we hunt and we earn our bread
As we hunted for the shoals of herring
O it was a fine and a pleasant day
Out of Yarmouth harbor I was faring
As a cabinboy on a sailing lugger
For to go and hunt the shoals of herring
O the work was hard and the hours long
And the treatment, sure it took some bearing
There was little kindness and the kicks were many
As we hunted for the shoals of herring
O we fished the Swarth and the Broken Bank
I was cook and I'd a quarter sharing
And I used to sleep standing on my feet
And I'd dream about the shoals of herring
O we left the homegrounds in the month of June
And to Canny Shiels we soon were bearing
With a hundred cran of silver darlings
That we'd taken from the shoals of herring
Now you're up on deck, you're a fisherman
You can swear and show a manly bearing
Take your turn on watch with the other fellows
While you're searching for the shoals of herring
In the stormy seas and the living gales
Just to earn your daily bread you're daring
From the Dover Straits to the Faroe Islands
As you're following the shoals of herring
O I earned my keep and I paid my way
And I earned the gear that I was wearing
Sailed a million miles, caught ten million fishes
We were sailing after shoals of herring
An example of that which jim was talking about, words takenfrom fishermen including sam larner during the radio ballad singing the fishing

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:57 AM

in my opinion anyonewho wishes to be a songwriter would do well to analyse the work of ewan macColl and peggy seeger

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:07 AM

No need really Dick - some of Ewan's techniques are useful, but in the end songwriting is something that cn be picked up from listening to many people
I was ver fond od Dick Snell and Donniell Kennedy as songmakers, yet I don't hear many of their songs nowadays

I sing this all the time now, though I have adapted the tune, as have others - the old one's far too well known
It's actually based on a Fenian legend
Jim

O'REILLY AND THE BIG McNEIL      
Donneil Kennedy
tune: Garden where the Praties Grow.

Well, the day I met O'Reilly it was thirty-two below,
The sparks were flying off me pick, I was up to me neck in snow.
His footsteps shook the basement slab, I saw the sky grow black
As he roared out, 'I'm your ganger now, so dig until you crack!'

He was bigger than a dumper truck, with legs like concrete piles,
His face was like a load of bricks, his teeth were six inch files;
His eyes they shone like danger lamps, his hands were tough as steel,
But a man as small as that was never a match for Big McNeil.

When the tea came round at dinner time, He grabbed a gallon tin.
I said 'you'd better drop that fast if you would save your skin,
You may be called O'Reilly, but I will to you reveal
That the cup you've got your hands on, it belongs to big McNeil.

Well, he laughed at me and carried on as if I hadn't spoke,
He said 'A man from Dublin town can always take a joke,'
But when he picked a shovel up, wee Jimmie gave a squeal.
'You'd better drop that teaspoon, it belongs to Big McNeil.'

Well, everything the ganger touched we said to leave alone,
Or else McNeil would grind him up and make plaster of his bones,
As last O'Reilly lost his head and said he'd make a meal
Out of any labourer in the squad, especially Big McNeil.

We said McNeil was home in bed, and told him where to go,
The boys all dropped their tools and went along to watch the show,
And when we got to Renfrew street wee Jimmy danced a reel
To see him thundering at the door, to fight the big McNeil.

When the ganger got inside he saw a monster on the bed,
A mound as big as a stanchion base with a barrel size of head,
He punched it and he thumped it and he hit about with zeal,
Till the missus cried - 'Don't hurt the child, or else I'll tell McNeil.'

He was bigger than a dumper truck, with legs like concrete piles,
His face was like a load of bricks, his teeth were six inch files,
His eyes they shone like danger lamps, his hands were tough as steel,
But a man as small as that was never a match for Big McNeil.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:00 AM

Okay this thread, for whatever reasons it was set up, is the ideal place to post exactly what it was that Ewan had to offer, a bit at a time of course. Not having been an acquaintance of his I am very interested in what he had to say on the subject and as you say, Jim, it would make an excellent thread to have the opportunity to discuss this without things getting overheated. I think we can safely say he was a controversial figure. I can identify with that as I'm sure many here can. Like others I have all the books, biographies, collections etc., but as you have such an insight it would make for good discussion.

Over to you....

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:38 AM

If nobody has an objection, I would love to do that Stave
I've done it in bits in the past - maybe more orgnised this time
Maybe if I put up why the Critics started and what was expected of it
We might be able to discuss it step-by step to see if it makes sense
If people wish to criticise the group and Ewan, I would much rather do it that way
What do people think ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:41 AM

Excellent!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 06:35 AM

I'll give it a try if I can get out of doing the garden - **** sunshine !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 07:27 AM

Sandman, ' It's there on the deep that we harvest and reap our bread '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:46 PM

Wonder if anyone can help
I've been putting together an achive of Ewan and his work together for a long time now (willing to share what I find with anybody,, of course
I have all his alnumes (bar the Songs against the Bomb CND songs he did with Karl Dallas)
The ones left on my wants list are the Topic singles - I wonder if anybody can help
I have none and would like them all, but I'm particularly interested in his recording of 'Jamie Foyers' - wonder if anybody can help
It would be churlish to reciprocate in kind as anybody is welcome to what we have anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 01:08 PM

Brian. If all the Lefty Do-Gooder is supposed to be an insult it misses the mark by a country mile. I am of the left wing and proud of it. I think you will also find that doing good is to be commended. Besides, what is the converse? Right wing wrecker?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 01:20 PM

Remember where it comes from and wear the insult with pride Dave
You are in the best of company
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:42 PM

Jim, Do you know if Ewan usually started with a lyric or would he have had a melody in mind when he composed his songs? I know that in some cases he would have modified a pre-existing song.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:44 PM

That phrase 'lefty do-gooders' tells you all you need to know about the Right.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:53 PM

M-M
as a practice Ewan chose an air for his songs, kicked it around(drving the household barmy as he wandered around humming it) till it became something else
I was there on several occaions while he was doing it
He had favourire tunes ('Famous Flower of Servibg Men from Greig was a favourite) - which he used for several songs (all different in the end
The only air I can remember him usinf straight was that for his best song IMO ' The Joy of Living' which he lifted straight from a Sicilian folk Song
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

I have none and would like them all, but I'm particularly interested in his recording of 'Jamie Foyers' - wonder if anybody can help

TRC55
    The Coalowner and the Pitman’s Wife. Ewan MacColl with Al Jeffery - banjo. O-3617.
    Jamie Foyers (Scottish traditional ballad with words by Ewan MacColl). Ewan MacColl. O-3618 3617/8.

.... though why I should put myself out to help someone who today has made a blatently racist posting on Mudcat and then when I complain about it, tries to make light of it and act in a dismissive way about my complaint is beyond me.
I must have a very kind a forgiving nature.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:01 PM

It's a funny old world, innit?

The only air I can remember him using straight was that for his best song IMO ' The Joy of Living' which he lifted straight from a Sicilian folk Song

That song, its sentiment and its air, have always driven me demented! I admire so many of his songs - and sing several of his lesser known - but that one always grates on me!

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa (for the day that's in it...)

Regards

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 10:34 AM

Jim then there is the tune limerick rake that he used straight for champion at keepin em rollin, than there was the tune that he used straight for britains motorways, another trad tune.tramps and hawkers or homes of donegal.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 10:38 AM

not a criticsm of ewan ,just a statement offact

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 11:45 AM

I think you're right Dick - there were probably others
Too general a statement on my part

No problem Martin - it probably works better for those who now them - it's now a firm favourite at funerals - I've you'd been at Tommy Munneley's you would have heard Bob Blair sing it - that's what Tom asked for
I was too upset to go to Ewan's (hate the idea of funerals anyway) but Pat did
At the crematorium, as the coffin sank into the ground Ewan's voice came over the speakers and those attending burst into tears

" a blatently racist posting on Mudcat a"
I have never made a blatently racist comment in my life on line or off Vic
I suggest you put it up again
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 12:44 PM

I have never made a blatently racist comment in my life on line or off Vic
I suggest you put it up again

I needn't. You have already read it and commented on it in the way I have pointed out.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 12:46 PM

Touche iI think Vic
Put it up or apologise - it can't be that difficult
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 12:46 PM

Touche iI think Vic
Put it up or apologise - it can't be that difficult
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:21 AM

if you dont get lost you wont find a new route, quote joan littlewood.I suppose ewan was trying to find a new route by singing a tune over and over.intersting idea.
joan must have had an influence on ewan as a playright and possibly lyric wise as a song writer , and peggy must have had considerable influence as a musician as well. i assume peggy and ewan discussed their songs when they were being written, is that so, jim?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM

Ewan tended to leave his impression on whoever he worked with, but he was certainly influenced by them at the same time
Often you didn't realise it at the time
Reading what has been written on Theatre Workshop and having spoken to some of its members, Joan and Jerry Raffles included, I was left with the imprecision that it was a democratic enterprise with a few personalities - Ewan being the main one
Their discipline was fairly strict but it was agreed on

Ewan was fond of telling the story of a newly arrived Harry H Corbett being introduced to the method of work at T.W. by being stripped to his underpants and vest, taken to London's West End in a taxi and put out on the Corner of Oxford Street to make his way back to base - Harry reportedly said "It was the making of me"
Ewan strongly opposed Theatre Workshop moving to London so he eventually left and became a folkie
Ewan and Peggy were indispensable as a team - both were very much their own creative artists but they appeared to use each others skills to enhance their own
When I was living with them I'd sit i the back seat of the car going home after a Singers Club night and they would minutely discuss their ow and each others performance that night throughout the journey - I went to bed several times leaving them still at it in the kitchen

I know I've told this story but at the risk of being accused 'boringly repetitive...
I was asked to rewire the lights in their home at the time Ewan was writing for the forthcoming 'Festival of Fools' late in the year
I'd spent a day wiring a circuit which I was hoping to finish before it got too dark - Ewan was in an upstairs room working by a desk-light
At about 3-30 Ewan came down and asked Peggy and I ti sit and listen to what he had been writing and tell us what we thought - it took over an hour, by which time it was nearly dark
I had to finish the lighting circuit with Peggy holding a torch
That was how Ewan worked under pressure - he became unconscious of everything else
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:58 AM

thankyou Jim. Here is an interesting extrac
In 1952 MacColl's play Uranium 235 did so well at Swiss Cottage that it moved to the West End, with such actors as Howard Goorney, George Cooper, Avis Bunnage, and Harry Corbett, who were to set up Theatre Workshop at the derelict Theatre Royal, Stratford East.
Did Ewan ever discuss his plays   with you, jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 06:13 AM

"Did Ewan ever discuss his plays   with you, jim"
A little Dick, especially during the time I stopped with him (when I should have been looking for work and somewhere to live) - he called it "working in the garden" but it seldom was
He told me of the agit prop pieces they put on during the cotton workers strikes (he hated Gracie Fields because she joined the bosses to break the strikes)
He didn't tlk that much about the Plays themselves, but he was quite proud the the Brecht Theatre in Germany was still putting them on and owed him "enough money never for him ever having to work again" if they ever got round to paying him
He spoke of his 'lost play' - one he wrote based on Aristophanes 'Lysistrata' about the wives of soldiers going on a sex strike to stop men going to war
He have the only surviving script to an early member of The Critics Group who left it on a Tube Train
He talked on another he wanted to write based on a "scabber", a silor he'd bet who was blacklisted as a troublemaker for trying to get better conditions at sea
He explained that the whaling ships weer used as a last resort for those sailors during the trade - conditions and length of voyage put off so many others
Ben Bright, who he based the song 'Shellback' on was a "scabber" - Ben finally jumped ship in California and joined Joe Hill's I.W.W. during the Depression and worked with T Bone Slim and Helen Gurley Flynn
Reactionary old bugger, Stan Hugill knew Ben and described the I.W.W. (International Workers of the World) as the "I Won't Work"
I think he used that ambition to write his last play 'Shipmaster' which was premiered in Manchester - I never saw it
I'm pretty sure he'd have continued writing had the acting group survive

Bits and pieces only Dick
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Brian May
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 12:20 PM

Ha ha ha.

Glad to see nothing changes in a world where everything changes.

Here's hoping you all stay safe and remain your irascible selves, I reckon you cover the whole spectrum between you.

Perhaps Ewan's piles were bothering him when I met him . . .

Happy Lockdown.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 02:24 PM

"Perhaps Ewan's piles were bothering him when I met him . . ."
Had they been paid off for First Time Ever then ? :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:29 AM

Great stuff ,Jim.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:14 PM

Back in the 70's I wrote to Peggy and Ewan asking if they knew where I could get copies of Ewan's plays. Peggy sent me the address of a publisher somewhere in Scotland. I wrote but they never wrote back - tried phoning but the number didn't work.

In those days you couldn't send an e-mail for people to answer when they felt up to it, either that or they had to write, find an envelope, buy a stamp, post it - which seemed a bit of a rigmarole. Phoning always seemed intrusive.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:37 PM

Some of Ewans plays are available in 'Agit Prop the Theatre Workshop' Howard Goorney and Ewan MacColl
Still getable but no longer at the half-nothing remainder price
Some Sunday there's no Mass I'll transcribe some of the Festival of Fools scripts - Ewan at his bast
If anybody wants the recordings of Ewan's own songs a dear Sots friend assembled (from the earliest days to his last) PM me and you get 'em
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 01:05 PM

If anybody wants the notes to Ewan's and Peg's unreleased 'Second Shift, I've just finished them and put them in my PCloud box
If you want to be linked if you aren't already) send me an e-mail address
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 01:51 PM

Thanks for that Jim.

Twenty quid's not too bad for something you've been looking for since 1977.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 20 - 02:58 AM

2'Second Shift,"
Another slop - Should read "Second Crop" - must lay off the Bourbon'
What cost £20 Al ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,big al
Date: 20 Apr 20 - 06:23 AM

Agit-prop to the Theatre Workshop: Political Playscripts from 1930-50

cheaper today

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 20 - 07:20 AM

Great - gland you found it
I thought you were talking about the albums
If you want them you'll have to get me your e-mail address - Im happy to let you have them (and a lot more that's in my PCloud box
Stay away from dirty virus carriers and keep safe
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:19 AM

I see there is a Bandcamp page:

https://ewanmaccoll.bandcamp.com/

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Reinhard
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:09 AM

Jack, I bought a bunch of albums from that Bandcamp page a few days ago. It's fine if you want to buy them for historical interest but-

Usually newly produced and recorded albums on Bandcaare sold for

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Reinhard
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:14 AM

Jack, I bought a bunch of albums from that Bandcamp page a few days ago. It's fine if you want to buy them for historical interest but-

Usually newly produced and recorded albums on Bandcaare sold for £10 per CD or £7-8 per digital download to recuparate the costs.

These albums are mostly just ripped from existing vinyl with scratches and warts and all and not very much cost - but they're sold for the price of new CDs.

And, what pissed me off, they contain just the mp3 files without anything from the original liner notes - which were mostly what I hoped to get from buying the albums.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 12:02 PM

Bandcamp does appear to be an overpriced, poorly reproduced rip-off run largely for a non-folk clientele
In which case I have no hesitation in offering to pass on unavailable elsewhere notes, etc to anybody who prefers not to be ripped off
I make the offer same to anybody searching for material claimed dishonestly by Peter Kennedy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

anybody searching for material claimed dishonestly by Peter Kennedy

... and there's lots and lots of it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:16 AM

There is indeed Vic - we have much of it availablt for the asking
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Phillip
Date: 01 May 20 - 02:00 PM

I have put Dainty Davie from The Merry Muses and a live version of Jamie Foyers on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_m7wP0buf0

Phillip

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 02:22 AM

HERE
Nice one Phillip
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 May 20 - 05:47 AM

The Bandcamp page says it's run by and for MacColl's family (which I guess mainly means Peggy Seeger).

So even if they are making a hames of it (and omitting sleeve notes is pretty bad) they are entitled to the money. Maybe somebody can help sort it?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 06:16 AM

The family have their own site for anybody wishing to seem information - I think
Never tried it - I usually contact Peggy or Calum direct
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 06:19 AM

s par as the Second Crop albums - I've never been able to find sleeve notes, I'm pretty sure they were never written
If anybody would like my notes to the albums and the song transcripts I'm happy to send them
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 20 - 12:28 PM

The McColl website has links in their shop section that go to the Bandcamp site where a load of albums can be found. Just had a look at one of them which said that it was sourced from the original vinyl so some not not going to be the best quality, but it seems to be clearly stated. Prices on Bandcamp are determined by the artists or whoever owns the individual site, then Bandcamp deducts a small percentage after a sale has gone through. Hardly a ripoff, it enables anyone to put up their music across a wide variety of genres, including ‘folk,’ and is used by many independent artists. I buy stuff there all the time, prices very reasonable and many are ‘pay what you want.’ Formats are in wav, flac or whatever is specified, on direct downloads. Hard copy merch: cd-r, cd, a thriving underground cassette community, vinyl etc. Any beef anyone has will be with the artist/curator rather than Bandcamp if the music quality is not up to scratch... Bandcamp had a special day Friday gone (May 1st) when it waived all fees so that all revenue went to artists and will be doing this I think for first Friday of the next three months, off the top of my head. This is for artists who have lost out due to the pandemic...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Roderick A. Warner
Date: 02 May 20 - 12:33 PM

Apologies, the Bandcamp info post from ‘Guest’ was me... forgot to add my name...