Are all folk musicians political?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 09:22 AM

Vin was one of our favourites at the Tree Inn and we had him lots of times. I wasn't keen on hearing his stance on abortion but it didn't stop me from going to see him. He had his point of view, but a gig in which the platform was his alone didn't seem to me to be a particularly "democratic" place to expound it. To be fair, I always felt the same about Dick Gaughan (who I've also seen a good number of times) who delivered us his point of view between the eyes, both in his songs and in between. I agreed with everything he put out, but there he was with his platform with no debate in sight...Uncomfortable...It's what I was saying about Woody, in contrast, who'd give you the story, leaving no doubt as to where he stood but stepping back from proselytising. You could listen unpressurised and make up your own mind and still love him...

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 09:23 AM

Is a religious/life issue like this to be seen as purely political?
I also didn't follow Vin's beliefs but it was just a small facet of his persona. There is a massive difference between someone following a belief like this for no personal gain and those who promote movements where one group gains significant personal gain over another.

Personally I have no objections to anyone, be they scientist/expert/celebrity, promoting obvious proven healthy behaviours or those that help the ecology of the planet. Those who use the media to tell lies about the opposites are the ones I worry about.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 09:57 AM

I care nothing for a performer's political beliefs, I just don't want to hear about them - absolutely nothing to do with the music.

I DO care about the sound of the music!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 10:03 AM

Bonzo, you sound rather dogmatic

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 10:39 AM

Hi Bonz
If you care about the sound of the music the odd political quip or single song shouldn't deter you too much. It wouldn't me.

When I was teenager I objected to MacColl as a political animal and avoided his concerts, along with others of that ilk. I now realise that was my loss and I grew out of it thankfully.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 11:26 AM

Re Steve Shaw's comments about Dick Gaughan I agree. I agree with much of Dick's politics but yes I found he preached to much between the songs when he played Kelso Club - and he actually got into a lengthy argument with someone in the audience. Not a local to the club so I think the guy had come some way to see Dick so you'd think he'd just put up with the politics but he got into an argument with the performer. The general consensus from the regulars was they didn't want to pay to watch two guys arguing politics.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 12:23 PM

As a prformer i do not care what anyone on this forum thinks, i will present my performance in the way that i think best.
I do not think that Martin Simpson cares one iota what right wing people think about his comments or his presentation, if he is anything like me he will disregard the opinions of people who only listen to sounds rather than lyrics and sounds.
to please the likes of the dogmatic man from croydon who is only interesed in sounds,
we might as well play instrumentals and mouth music all night
i have encountered some half wits in my time but the idiots who are only interested in sounds remind me of the pschodelyic hippies of the 1960s, far out man timothy o leary rules, drop out and drop a tab , imbeciles

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 12:40 PM

it is an example of what is partly wrong with the uk folk revival the emphasis on listening to sounds rather than lyrics and arrangements , and people who are only interested in sounds but not lyrics, are just not getting the music they might as well listen to most pop.
anyway in answer to the OP. NO not every performer is overtly political.
as a perfomer[ i am sure like many others] I decide to have a balance of subject matter in a set and a beginning middle and end to a set, including changes of tempo and changes of keys and hanges of mood and subject
i personally feel that one politically thought provoking song in a set, has more effect than four or five, performance is to some extent about contrast and variety, presentation of politically thought provoking songs is important sometimes it is better to say little and let the song speak for itself, IMO IT IS A MISTAKE TO TALK DOWN OR LECTURE AN AUDIENCE

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 02:52 PM

Basically we sing songs because we like them and our audiences like them, for whatever reason. Any politics is just a side to that.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 03:45 PM

Where on earth does Sandman get all of his rubbish from?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 04:01 PM

that is debatable, and is only partly true, i can think of performers like pete seeger,ma reynolds EwanMacColl peggy seeger who had other considerations

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 04:15 PM

My post was in response to, Steve,

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 04:27 PM

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 09:57 AM

I care nothing for a performer's political beliefs, I just don't want to hear about them - absolutely nothing to do with the music.

I DO care about the sound of the music!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 05:15 PM

Which post and which Steve?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 06:54 PM

Totally agree with the following:

John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 21 - 03:46 PM

And... don't sit on a stage and tell me how I should vote/think/feel, about A, B, or C. I'm also not really interested in how you feel about it either. I am there to hear you perform, not pontificate. I would never in my wildest dreams attend a political meeting, and I don't expect to find one in my local folk club. Having a microphone and amplification, is no reason to proselytise !
Yes there are hard line singers who always introduce politics onto the stage, and that's why I don't go to their concerts.

Cannot put it any better than that. Well said.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 07:54 PM

Well I think you're missing some nuances. First, politics wheedles its way into our lives in all sorts of ways and folk song is no exception. There's politics in songs about badly-done-to sailors, there's politics in songs about maidens badly treated, there's politics in Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out. There's politics in Pretty Boy Floyd. There's politics in songs about whales, and, what's more, your "hard-line singer" might be my mouthpiece for social justice. There are two points to be made. First, it's how the point-making is put across. If it's in-yer-face preaching, bad, unless you're a compete acolyte. But if it's put subtly to get you thinking but not telling you what to think, well what's to object to? After all, we are all grown-ups. Second point: just don't go to the gig. Or go to the gig if the guy is that good, bite your lip and enjoy the other stuff. That was me with Vin. Objectionable apropos of abortion, two percent, the funniest and most joyously life-affirming man on the planet, ninety-eight percent.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 08:22 PM

Well I think I'm on my own here. I really love political songs.

One of the things that really drew me into folk was the Third Programme production, The Northern Drift. Alex Glasgow singing My Daddy is a Left Wing Intellectual. Also Woody Guthrie, and Ewan MacColl of course.

I loved folksong turning up in the Ban the Bomb type playwrights - John Arden's Sergeant Musgrave Dance and Henry Livings Nil Carborundum.

Also the Irish rebel songs, and Leadbelly singing Bourgeois Blues.

On reflection, i think the politics is the best bit.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 12:02 AM

I too like certain political songs, but i also like story songs and i also like love songs.
What annoys me are people who do not make their meaning clear when they post on mudcat.
Bonzo brought MartinSimpson in to this discussion, unless you have a closed mind[ which Bonzo appears to be trying to have], it is difficult not to be affected by the lyrics because it is a powerfully written song, you might have valid crticisms of the song as Jim McLEAN has done, from the point of view of a conscientous objector and because it does not say, as the universal soldier does that people can refuse to go to war, but it is difficult not to be affected by it,
It is difficult not to be affected by the lyrics of strange fruit, because it is powrfully written. we are talking primarily about   lyrics
if the song has a clear meaning it is not necessary to give a political lecture., a few words will suffice. the people who go to listen to martin simpson for his guitar wizadry are not getting it at all. Songs have something to say,if you want guitar wizadry listen to guitar instrumentals.
there is only one daft person on this forum and that is the person who says.
Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 09:57 AM

I care nothing for a performer's political beliefs, I just don't want to hear about them - absolutely nothing to do with the music.

I DO care about the sound of the music!!!

he is effectively saying that lyrics are not important,
furthermore i believe he is not telling the truth. I am sure that if there was a song about cruelty to greyhounds, Bonzo would be listening and clappimg loudly
Bonzo just does not want to hear left wing opinions in song.I am sure Martin Simpson takes no notice of the likes of Bonzo, thank god for that.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 12:10 AM

in the above post i was referring to the song masters of war written by dylan and performed by martin simpson

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 02:13 AM

Everybody has to think something!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 02:23 AM

You're not alone Big Al. I like political songs too. Just not paying to watch a performer argue with the audience between songs.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 03:53 AM

Certainly not alone Al I have loved political songs right from entering the folk scene fifty odd years ago.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 04:46 AM

I’m in Big Al’s camp, I enjoy political songs - it was the ‘Protest’ songs coming from the US that first attracted me to the folk clubs back in the late ‘60s. But I’m also with Allan - I don’t want to be preached at by the artist between songs (even though I almost always agree with what’s being preached), and I definitely don’t want to listen to the artist arguing with the audience when he/she should be getting on with the next song.

If the song is well-written and well-performed, it will stand up on its own and needs no further preaching to make its point. IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 05:48 AM

I enjoy a song if I like the singer's voice and a good instrumental backing.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 06:03 AM

Dick brought up Strange Fruit, which is a song that sort of illustrates my point. There's no doubting what the words are about and there's no doubt that it's a highly political "protest song," but the words don't mention "negros/niggers/blacks" (OK, "black bodies") and they don't use the word "lynching" and they don't point directly to the perpetrators (it was a particular lynching - you can see the photo of it if you have the stomach - that moved the writer of the song to put pen to paper). There are stark and jolting juxtapositions ("Pastoral scene of the gallant South, The bulgin' eyes and the twisted mouth") that unsettle without any preachiness. I think that the song is all the more powerful for its tough allusions and that, had the words been more direct in the ways I've said, the song would have lost a lot. I'm not sure that this is about whether we like or dislike political songs. A political song has a message, and the way that message is put across will govern our individual reactions to it. It takes skill to compose a song, and it takes skill to nuance the message, and we should expect that from a good songwriter.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Mysha
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 05:27 PM

Are all folk musicians from the USA?

(Yes, it's very much a BS thread, even if it has some musical overtones.)

Bye,
Mysha

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 05:44 PM

From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 04 Feb 21 - 05:48 AM

I enjoy a song if I like the singer's voice and a good instrumental backing

So Bonzo, do you listen to the lyrics or just the sound of the voice, for example whem masters of war is sung by martin simpson do you listen to the lyrics, do you understand the lyrics, do you shut out of your mind the meaning of the song and just listen to the sounds, you clearly disagree with his political comments.
Do you ignore the lyrics and listen to the sounds
do you listen to the lyrics of this song about cruelty to dogs, it is not unaccompanied
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoxbgbeteRw

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: mg
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 01:39 AM

i have no idea who martin simpson is although i have probably heard the name. I find it very hard to listen to lyrics, even when i try to make myself. i rarely get the story line. i vaguely know that a ship was wrecked or a mine collapsed. sometimes i will read the lyrics if i can find them. i like the sound of things. i do not like silly songs, parodies etc. or lyrics that do not sound melodic. if the singer has a pretty voice and the tune is nice and the lyrics do not grate on my nerves, then i will like it. not planning to apologize for this.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 02:52 AM

Everyone listens to music differently and what mg says reminds me of my wife. She often doesn't really doesn't clock what a song is about. It is more the sound of the words she likes so as long as there is not a line that grates she is happy with the words and chooses not to analyse. It is more the melody etc she goes for. On the other hand I do kind of delve into the words and try and work out the meaning or story if there is one etc. People will enjoy music as they wish to enjoy music. Saying that I don't need songs to mean something or have a story. I like abstract lyrics too where it is more just the sound of the words and images thrown up. Like much mid 60s Dylan or the likes of Bowie's "Bewley Brothers" and "Quicksand" etc.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 02:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAarZg0K8lM here is martin simpson singing a bob dylan song
there is no need to apologise

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 03:04 AM

i think bonzo does listen to lyrics when he does not disagree with their political content, which is different from mg.
i bet if he turned on that clip about animal cruelty he would listen because he agrees with it politically.
i suspect Bonzo decideds to deliberately shut his mind off, that is different from being unable to concentrate on listening to words

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 03:06 AM

the op said quote
but I don't recall a discussion of liberal vs conservative values in folk song.
I suspect because Bonzo is a conservative he deliberately refuses to listen to left political songs but listens to the lyrics of political songs whose content he agrees with

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 05:23 AM

You can suspect what you like!!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 05:42 AM

yes because you will not come forward and be honest,
people that say on this forum such as guest observer, object to politics in folk music actually object to politics they disagree with
which means we would have to leave out a vast chunk of the folk repertoire, why not end up singing cliff richard songs, such as summer holiday, the lyrics of which do not upset anyone as political opinions ,well that is musical fascism.
Bonzo is a conservative, yet dislikes cruelty to animals but he will not admit to liking a song which has lyrics criticising animal cruelty

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 05:49 AM

Can't help thinking that the Bonzo avenue of enquiry was long since exhausted, Dick. It would be nice to peruse this interesting thread without having to sift the constructive bits out from the tirade of contumely...

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 06:00 AM

Wow! I’ve learned a new word! Thanks Steve, that’s a good ‘un!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 06:15 AM

"The tirade of contumely" is a great name for a band!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 06:15 AM

"Tirade of contumely" was one of the expressions frequently used by Terry Wogan, always when in humorous mode. I use it a lot since hearing him saying it. Another one is in here: "If Dick keeps up this tirade of contumely aimed at Bonzo, there'll be wigs on the green..." :-)

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 06:17 AM

Hey, "Wigs On The Green"... Another great band name!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 06:35 AM

Better than ‘Whigs on the Green’ eh, Steve?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 07:15 AM

Explanation of the term ‘wigs on the green’...

Who knew? Certainly not me! My education is complete...

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 10:10 AM

This was my original comment:

"I dare say that all folk musicians are political in that they hold their own political opinions on a multitude of different issues. Whether those opinions are pushed in their choice of material and performance is something else entirely.

Whether at a festival or at a gig, I go to listen to the music, I do not go to attend a Party Political Broadcast, on the rare occasions that has happened I have voted with my feet and gone to find something else to listen to."

Now exactly how that translates to:

"people that say on this forum such as guest observer, object to politics in folk music actually object to politics they disagree with which means we would have to leave out a vast chunk of the folk repertoire" - Dick Miles

I have no idea, I mention no specific political slant just politics in general.

At various Folk Clubs, as mentioned by John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 21 - 03:46 PM

"And... don't sit on a stage and tell me how I should vote/think/feel, about A, B, or C. I'm also not really interested in how you feel about it either. I am there to hear you perform, not pontificate."

Now I do not think in stating that that he was referring to the songs but the "patter" in between songs [Dick Gaughan, also mentioned by others on this thread, was particularly guilty and very bombastic in doing this regularly.]

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 10:51 AM

Well just talk past him, Bonzo. We've heard enough about all that.

As 'twas I who brought up Dick Gaughan, I wish to say that he is, to me, an absolutely outstanding performer and I'm sad that he's hit on hard times. I went way out of my way to see him several times and I wouldn't have missed him for the world. My comments about his more political stuff really come down to just a few songs from his huge repertoire. I feel the same about Christy and Roy Bailey. One of the many reasons I love all three so much is that I share their political ideals. Perhaps that's my problem: it isn't great to be cuffed about the ears with things I already heartily agree with. To be reminded and inspired is one thing. To be beaten round the head with what I already espouse is entirely another. But that isn't most of their songs, and, to me, they aren't defined by it.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 10:58 AM

Responding only to the OP, not having read everything since... Folk music CAN be political. All genres of music can make a point (political or otherwise) if they wish to. But punk is the only one I can think of off the top of my head where the foundation of it seems to be "We want to protest... About..."

No, broadly speaking. Folk music isn't political, and folk musicians aren't political. First and foremost, surely, folk musicians are musicians? 99% of 'em anyway. Some recycle songs because they want to repeat the point; others recycle the songs simply because they love that melody, love the well-crafted lyrics. Etcetera. I can draw you 101 shades & nuances between those two poles, but I don't think I need to.

For some the music is all; for a very, very few the music is a vehicle to carry their message. On those grounds alone (if you accept the point as valid), there cannot be any "all", whether it's folk, rock, pop, acting, writing, emptying the dustbins… ;-)

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 11:38 AM

I think Martin Simpson is from Scunthorpe.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 12:57 PM

guest observer, you object to Dick Gaughans patter, since his patter is related to the song he sings, you are also objecting to the song and its lyrical content. you are surely not going to try and tell me his patter is not related to the content of his song

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 01:02 PM

”I think Martin Simpson is from Scunthorpe.”

Indeed he is, a former member of Scunthorpe Folk Club. Resides in Sheffield nowadays.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 01:50 PM

I always felt I needed subtitles at a Dick Gaughan gig, so I never knew if he was talking politics or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 02:14 PM

i understand his accent ok.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 03:49 PM

At least you went to the gig, Bonzo!