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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Peter T. Date: 16 Mar 00 - 08:47 AM Oh sure, wise guys, easy to sit in the comfort of your easy chair and Hijaz away. (Actually I got the C#m from Rick's show -- I am glad I didn't say G#m, who knows what mystic music you whizzes would have have dreamed up). I think it is very interesting that unless you grow up surrounded by people playing all the time, or you got started on this early, it is extremely difficult for an adult (admittedly untalented) to go into a group for the first few times. I think experts underestimate how difficult this is, because it was a long time ago for them, or something. For a start, it is incredibly distracting because so much is going on. There is also the fact that things are going on in real time and not in what I call "sitting in your room time". It is also not like the nervousness of playing solo, which you can concentrate on a small circle of light. You are also capable of wrecking someone else's song, losing the rhythm, forgetting the words, so you have a burden of responsibility. It also happens very fast, with changes coming at you. IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT, DIFFICULT EXPERIENCE FOR SOME PEOPLE. I suspect that one obstacle to stopping and just saying these are the chords of this song here, here, and here, is that people who are used to group work want to generate the momentum and experience of swapping songs and keeping the bubble of music aloft, and stopping to go through the song first would destroy that feeling of spontaneous group togetherness. I can understand that feeling, and wouldn't want to disrupt it, but it does complicate life for us dolts who are on the far outskirts of this togetherness. Don't mind me, I am just obsessively shy about these things. P.S. The girlfriend went off with Kathie Lee Gifford. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 16 Mar 00 - 08:56 AM Little Neo, That last one, LOLWROTFLOLWROTFLOLWROTF... CH |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM G#minor is really Abminor in the key of Eb, and would be a chord that one might reasonably find stuck in after the Ab in a normal, major key song-- But please, Peter, I was just trying to help--really-- When I was but a young man, my guitar teacher, old Uncle Albert, used to take me along as the bass player on all sorts of deranged pick-up jobs that he would get called for--I had only played folk music and garage band rock stuff--and these guys played mostly Jazz standards and lounge music! I learned a lot, much having to do with dealing with fear--I also learned never to drop a beat, and to muffle the string when I wasn't sure about the note--I also learned the secret hand signals that jaxx guys used to tell each other what key they were in, and the secret technique for playing every song with just two chords-- Most important lesson was to learn the names of the songs so I could go home and learn them and be ready for next time--When you play bass, there is always a next time!!! |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:52 PM Peter T., I'm one of those who has had music everywhere since in utero. I could hold my own in a 3-part round before I could speak a proper sentence etc. etc. blah blah blah. I am well aware that I don't remember what it was like to learn because I don't think I ever had that experience. Yet, put me in a group of people less fluid with music than I am, and I'm happy, no, I'm delighted to take a few minutes to run through a song in slo-mo and freeze-frame as needed so everyone's with it to the best of their ability. It's easy for me, when I see someone who can't barre a Bm, to suggest they just skip it or lightly strum on D. IT'S OKAY TO BE A BEGINNER. I was just lucky enough to be a beginner before I could pronounce the word. I don't find that this ruins any atmosphere at all. In fact, the atmosphere soars when everyone feels they've been shown a little respect for where they're at. Once the song gets rolling, the chances of a good old cookup are much higher when people know what to do in their tough spots. Basically, I do my best to impart the notion that the goal is fun and not perfection. So, in conclusion to this rather lengthy post, if you find yourself feeling uncomfortable, there are 2 common causes of which I'm aware: 1. One's own perfectionism, and 2. the groups music to hospitality ratio is about 100:1. If you're sure it's no. 2, go find a new group, or talk privately with the formal or informal leaders. Sometimes people just don't know there's a problem until you tell them. If the reaction is negative, definitely time for a different group. All that said, I bumbled totally in my hospitable intentions. It happens. No one threw me out. No one said don't come back. I learned from what I saw in the song circle and I'll try never to err that way again. I noticed it myself, and I'm sure I would not have enjoyed having it pointed out to me in a thoughtless way, but I'd still have learned. $0.02 for you! CH
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:00 PM P.S. to Peter T: I also bumbled when co-hosting an open mike night. It was my first time and I'm not very experienced with introductions, patter or microphones. I made embarrassing errors with all those things. But the usual host band was sick, Mom and I showed up ready to play, so we found a couple of people to set up the equipment and did our thing. And WE FORGOT TO INTRODUCE OURSELVES! That was just for starters. Hey, sh!t happens, don't take it too seriously. Enjoy being shy while it lasts. When it wears off, you'll have a new problem in having to wait impatiently for your turn, instead of dreading it or taking a pass. Cheers. CH |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:06 PM Awww.....poor....Ricky
Broke the mirror of the messmerist?....So sorry... |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,of a GUEST of a GUEST of a GUEST of a GUEST Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:14 PM Must agree that Mr. Geee Geee
Was less pickling
If the fix is so easy
when it comes to FOLK...keep it simple stupid!!!
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,of a GUEST of a GUEST of a GUEST of a GUEST Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:17 PM Must agree that Mr. Geee Geee
Was less pickling
If the fix is so easy
when it comes to FOLK music...Keep It S stupid!!!
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,_gargoyole Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:42 PM Dear Mr Rick.... You are sincere and legit
While your patience we've taxed It's been between me and MAX
As previous posts have noted You have been scape-goated
I am GLAD to retire
Like Ireland shall be
Like the Lord Nelson
I am most glad to retire
But if MAX is not on shift
Sincerely, Folk,,,,and most blessed friends and family....I am most happy to retire permanently and FOREVER!!!within this community the personae of "gargoyle" "-gargoyle"
The part has been played...
Just be glad that the personae I chose was not mimicking your'se. Let it be known from this time forth...and into all eternity that all postings under this name are bogus.
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,guest Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:43 PM Let is also be known that the "gargoyle" like his master is a liar!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Rick Fielding Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:45 PM Dog-gone it! Finally flamed by Garg, after all these months...and I can't understand a word of it!! PLEASE, insult me in recognizable syntax. Honest, I won't crumble like a used Oreo cookie or solicit sympathy from the masses. After 20 years on the road ya learn to eat hecklers for breakfast! One good way to ease those jam session jitters, if you're not really comfortable with your complete chord repertoire yet is to know how to use the capo to put songs in G or C where you've got a fighting chance to catch the minors before they shoot on by. I have to admit I'm a huge fan of the "Nashville number system". It takes about a week to really learn but can make so many things easier for the rest of your musical life. I've explained it in detail on another thread several months ago, but I'm probably too stupid to find it quickly....and I'm not sure how many folks on Mudcat are into that kind of technical stuff anymore. Used to be quite a few. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:53 PM Actually Rick, I think there are still quite a few. A lot of new people have very serious interests and especially for what you have to say. Try to find it if you can ... Its probably worth a thread of its own. And congratulations on your flaming!!! I ain't got a clue as to what he's talking about myself, but then again, he probably doesn't either. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:58 PM Ah, the despised "me too" posting. I have no idea what gargoyle was saing. CH |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 16 Mar 00 - 11:10 PM Rick, Re: ...I have to admit I'm a huge fan of the "Nashville number system". It takes about a week to really learn but can make so many things easier for the rest of your musical life. I've explained it in detail on another thread several months ago... Do you recall any of the words in the thread name? I tried a forum search using "Nashville" and only got a song request from 1997. If you can give us a hint, I bet we can find the thread and some e-whiz can even put in a link! CH |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: sophocleese Date: 17 Mar 00 - 01:13 AM Well one site that talks about it is at this address (how come I always do this when I'm too wiped to figure out blue click things?) http://pw1.netcom.com/~coolsong/nashnumber.html |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 17 Mar 00 - 05:39 AM It's okay, Soph, we know you're an e-whiz, you don't need to show off for us all the time. And thanks for the URL! You brought the kebab to the BBQ, I think I can put it on the grill. CH
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,Neil Lowe Date: 17 Mar 00 - 07:14 AM Ditto 'Spaw's et al sentiments, Rick. blue clicky thing for Nashville Number System Thanks, sophocleese. Caveat Emptor: I didn't test sophocleese's URL before inserting it into a blue clicky thing.
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,Neil Lowe Date: 17 Mar 00 - 08:03 AM Cool site...worth a bookmark.
Musical shorthand is a good idea. But it's a problem for a doofus like me who's not so familiar with the scales to know that a "6" in the key of Eb is....ummm, let's see,Eb,F,G,Ab... ummmm....oh yeah, C (Cm according to the Nashville Number system). I use a similar 'cheat sheet' except I just write out the chord: Or something like that. I'd still like to know what Rick said about it. Regards, Neil
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Peter T. Date: 17 Mar 00 - 08:19 AM Thanks to all (or all but...) here for the assistance. Mudcat is a compassionate group, which is why I am here!! Back to practising. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:46 AM Neil, we're folkies...just learn it in C and G. If I had to figure it out (on stage) in Ab or Db I'd bust a blood vessel.
To start with: just put numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 More to come. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:49 AM Thread drift: I have my Windows colour preferences set so that my blue clicky things are in fact green, and after use, a lovely purple. It's okay though: being left-handed I have plenty of experience in adapting instructions. Back to the subject of music teacing tips: I expect to be using the NNS for my new piano student to refresh his 30-year-old knowledge of theory. Peter T., about the matter of what note is what number in which key, I might have my student do up a chart as homework. We can fix up any goofs and then he'll have it for reference. |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 17 Mar 00 - 10:49 PM Refresh...I wouldn't want our Rick to have to go looking for his thread when he comes up with that "More to come," now would I?! CH |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Mar 00 - 11:08 AM "Top o' the Mornin' After", folks. Well I had the opportunity to use the N.N.S. in spades last night at my St. Paddy's gig. I hired Margaret Stowe, a fine jazz oriented lead guitarist to pick with me on some Irish, folk, old country, and classic rock. I doubt if Marg plays much (or any) if this repertoire in her other gigs, but she sounded great and the gig went exceptionally well. Between songs I'd quickly whisper "key of C, 1,4,5..look out for 2". That was for Hank Williams "Your Cheatin heart". What that meant was that the chords C,F,G(7) would be used, with an occasional D(7). For a song like Spancil Hill, I'd jot a quick chart that would take no more than 20 seconds to do: "D",3/4, 6-,5,3-,6-,6-,6-,1/5,6-,6-,6-,1/5,6-,6-,5,6-/5,6-. It indicates the chords "D, Bm, F#m, and A. Each comma indicates 123, 123. I know it seems complicated at first but it really isn't and after you've got the hang of it, you can pick the chords to a song off a CD with only one listen. I wanna emphasize though, that it does take about a week to learn. The benefits are that Marg was able to back me up and then play a beautiful solo on a piece that she's never heard before and quite possibly won't ever hear again. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 18 Mar 00 - 04:45 PM Hey, Rick, top 'o the afternoon-after for me! I'm off to an e-free zone for a couple of days, but I have a question: what's a chart? For that matter what's a lead sheet? What do they look like, "must" include, "may" include... CH |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Joan Date: 18 Mar 00 - 05:18 PM Just back from away and Rick, your comment about looking in the mirror while playing got my attention. Does it bother people to see their hands do the chording backwards? Just curious. Everybody starts out having to arrange (hurting) fingers on the strings one-by-one when learning chords. But nothing begins to sound good until you can grab the whole chord at once, let it go and grab the next. So I'd tell my students to (step one) make the chord, look where all their fingers are, take the hand away and make the same one again--and again--and again. Just plop the fingers down all together, and this time it's okay to watch. After they venture that, I'll have them (step two) close their eyes and grab where they THINK they should put their fingers. Take a chance. Trust that the fingers have learned where they're supposed to be even if the head hasn't. What that seems to accomplish is to take away the visual aspect and go by feel. Surprising how quickly that little trick weans people away from draping themselves over the neck of the guitar and watching their fingers search out individual strings. We'll do four strums per change, then two, then one. Bet Rick has a lotsa good teaching tricks in his bag, eh, Rick?? Joan |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Mar 00 - 12:43 PM Hi Joan. The "mirror" thing intrigues me. I'm not sure if it's a good thing for everyone or not. I do it, and I suggest that others give it a try but only time will tell. One thing I DO suggest wholeheartedly is that anyone having trouble memorizing words, try this: Write the lyrics out on a large (at least 20" by 30") sheet of paper and just stick it up on a wall (any wall). After a couple of days the osmosis process will have clicked in and you'll know the song. Crow: a chart can be virtually anything that helps you take a song from paper to voice and instrument. Just a piece of paper with either full notation or some kind of shorthand. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 19 Mar 00 - 03:09 PM ...just reminded of a couple more tips... 1) Joan--when a person "feels" a hand postion, they are using the right brain for learning. It's best to not talk when doing these exercises because that's a left brain activity. On the piano we can play many chords using the same hand position, or transpose melodies going by "feel", ie. just moving to another place on the keyboard and playing the same relative sequence of notes. Not sure how you do this on the guitar. Also, in your step 1, the student can "feel" the chord when they are away from the instrument. (playing air guitar) I think in sports, all the visualization exercises reinforce the "feel" of an activity. 2) Rick--In all types of learning, it seems that the more senses you use, the quicker you learn. When I had to memorize new German vocabulary words I would 1) WRITE them on a piece of paper 2) SAY them out loud as I wrote and listen to the pronunciation. Usually I could memorize 25 words in just a few minutes this way. Something about writing them...about three times...and you can memorize just about anything. Mary
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Peter T. Date: 20 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM Rick, you don't explain what the slashes are for. Are they an F#/G (e.g. you use 3/4) or 3/4 time or what? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Crowhugger Date: 21 Mar 00 - 04:38 PM Thanks, Rick. Mary, with your permission, I'll cut-and-paste your last post for reference as I learn about the many ways to learn and about what teaching styles I'll feel comfortable with. Boy, 2 days away and a bunch of thoughtful info appears. I love this place! CH |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Peter T. Date: 21 Mar 00 - 05:06 PM Personal info: Rick means by the slash a half bar of one, followed by a half bar of the other. |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Mar 00 - 07:29 PM Yeah, Peter. When the number system is used, some people (me) use a comma to denote bars, and a slash to indicate a "split bar" (2 chords) Rick |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: RichM Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:42 PM Or... "Bass...near breast. Treble...near Tushy " A unisex version! |
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Subject: RE: Music Teaching Tips....again. From: GUEST,thing Date: 21 Mar 00 - 10:09 PM Yeah, RichM, but it doesn't work if you're a singer. And what if you're in a choir? |
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