BS: How many.....

Subject: RE: BS: How many.....
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 09:38 AM

Snuffy, to expand on your example of contraction, what happens if you were reffering to the quality of the photo's?

Do we get "I hope you like my photo's' quality."?

Amos, I'm not sure that I understand your post. Are you saying that it would be equally correct to write:

Where did you ever get the idea of calling your dog "Batman?"

I am probably wrong on this but I would have thought that was questioning the word Batman and if that was the intention, to complete the sentence, we would need another question mark, i.e.

Where did you ever get the idea of calling your dog "Batman?"?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: How many.....
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 10:40 AM

Jon, I think you're wrong on that. According to what Amos said, if what was in the quotation marks was a question on its own, there would be a question mark, but the whole sentence is a question.

I don't know why some people choose to walk around with a booger on their nose because they're insulted if someone tells them about it. It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?

I'm still not comfortable criticising people in most situations, but I had a boss who would give me her writing to proofread. She would be unhappy if I didn't find lots of things that could be improved. Her thought seemed to be "Don't let my paper go out of the office like that, because I'll look like I don't know how to write." We all make mistakes when we write, and most people have problems seeing their own, no matter how well they proofread. IMO, it doesn't matter much here at Mudcat; it would be silly to have someone proofread our posts before submitting them. But in a professional environment, it's up to people to cover each other's backs.

Subject: RE: BS: How many.....
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 01:58 PM

Apostrophes are also correctly used to pluralize an acronym, and doing that has a dual purpose-- to indicate contraction and to set off the little bitty [s] at the end so it's seeable and not missed. And brackets are often used to set off a word to which one is referrring, instead of quotes, since the quotes are so easily confused with their other usage.

Example:

[ISP's] may mean either things of the ISP, or multiple Internet Service Providers. That's why some people just want the FAQ, and others want just the FAQs, and still others, FAQ's and FAQs' and..... FAQs's.

This can apply to brand names that end in [s], as well, or to business names that are all caps with periods-- in other words, initials. So now we have a type of company called a [Dot Com], and to write down the pural one would find [Dot Coms] looking pretty odd. On emight write, [Dot-Com's} to mean the plural and reflect how it is actually usually said. Actually what would be correct would be:

[.com]s or [.com/]s

Because there are so many ways the "rules" of grammar may be or are commonly applied and mis-applied, one next needs to consider the slipperier slope of USAGE. Publishers develop their own "house style" rules or adopt a known one such as The Chicago Manual of Style. And I recall several days' wrangling at a Christian publisher where I copy-edited. In addition to the grammar issues, there were many related to usage of things Biblical. To abbr or not to abbr. Bib ref's? Will we always make a writer's words agree with grammar rules, or is some license for personal voice desirable? How about the age-old question of Psalms? Is it going to be cited as Ps. 119, Psalm 119, or Psalms 119? Italic or roman? Oh you don't like Romans, plus you're new in typesetting, you only know Regular?

And what about that troublesome Jesus-- is He always going to be capped?

It got pretty funny after awhile. "Cap Jesus!" "Yeah, Cap him!"

Then there were the denominational differences around the table. Never mind those.

I was doing all right until I ran up against the authoritative rule on [comprise], and realized I'd had it wrong. I was so gomorrahfied that a favorite word now had to be used diffferently that I just gave the word up completely, in protest.

Now my current peeve is when media people say, "This begs the question, 'Blah blah BLAH?'." Maybe I'm wrong, in which case if you correct me I will be grateful to stop getting so mad when I hear this one. But by my recollection, to [Beg the Question] is not to make a statement or describe a situation that logically calls for a NEW or IMPLIED question to be addressed or debated. It is an error or unfair tactic in rhetorics where the way one addresses a POSED question in a debate, for example, fails to address the actual question being debated while appearing to have addressed it. It means one has left The Question begging, and has camouflaged that fact, to get points, by dressing up one's point in flowery BS. It is not supposed to mean, "Gee, don't it make you wonder about.....?".

Then, hyphens. For line breaks, never ser-vice, always serv-ice, because [vice] can be misread as a word on its own, even though normal syllabication conventions break words by syllables. Even there, on this word, opinions divide. [Ser-vice] could be permissable as it is pronounced thus, but not permissible as the word is constructed serve-ice] with the [e] dropped in construction. So confoozing. So the publisher adopts a convention. (When you hire on as a proofreader, the house conventions are given.)

And hyphens to make multiple, related words into modifiers-- required in some settings, taboo in others. Meatspace, a compound noun. Single-spaced copy, a modifier by hyphenation. Beautifully-written copy, a correct modifier if the house style says so, or better to be beautifully written according to another publisher's view.

My other peeve is editors who impose a rule in such a way that the idiom is lost, in writing that calls for individual expression. When an editor ignores convention about different types of writing and instead sanitizes everything into ONE type, which is Standard English-- it does violence to the creative mind that produced the work. Shudder....

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: How many.....
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 06:56 AM

I think there are many different rules/conventions here, and we're mixing examples unfairly. But I'll have to do some thinking and researching today to get credible sources. (I think it was unfair for Amos to use a question mark.)

1) There is a difference between British/Canadian and American conventions for use of quotes at the end of a sentence. The Brits put a period outside the quotes, the Americans inside. As best I remember, there is a rule for commas and periods and another rule for question marks and exclamation marks. Right now I'm a little confused on Amos' (or is it Amos's) example. Quotes can be used in the punctuation of a direct quote or to set off a single word used in a unique way. Most problems occur when they are at the end of a sentence.

2) The rules for an apostrophe when the word ends in s are not always clear. We have a business here in town called "Chris's Creations," and that's correct. (Notice how I put the comma inside the qotes like a good American?) Since my maiden name ends in double s (let's say Arness for illustration purposes), I used to think I understood how to form possessives when the word ends in s. After seeing the Chis's example above, somebody told me that the rules are different when there is a double s. How do you say Mary Arness' car and how do you say the Arness' car? I'll try to find some examples today.

3) And while we're at it...is there such a word as noone? I never noticed this til I started writing on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: How many.....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 12:49 PM

Plurals, possessives, and contractions...

Tits, tit's, tits', and tit's.

As in...

3 tits sat on the wire.

The first tit's wing was broken.

All 3 tits' feathers were ruffled.

I wonder when the last tit's going to fly?

And that, folks, is all you need to know.

- LH