Origins: In the Bleak Midwinter

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: fat B****rd
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM

Hello, almost 9 years later and I've got a beautiful version by Alison Crowe.

Subject: ADD: The Ploughboy's Dream
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:59 PM

No problem with "heaven" if it's pronounced "heav'n".
..................
I tried looking up Oh Little Town of Bethleham in a Moody and Sankey collection printed back in the 1890s, and found that the verse I mentioned was missed out then - but the Oxford Book of Carols (edited by Ralph Vaughan Williams) has always included it. Incidentally the Oxford Book of Carols mentions that the tune is "The Ploughboy's Dream - and a Google search came up with the words for that, and here they are, and very singable I'd say. And shows a very encouraging concern for animal welfare as well:

THE PLOUGHBOY'S DREAM

I am a ploughboy stout and strong as ever drove a team
And three years since as I lay a-bed I had a dreadful dream
I dreamt I drove my master's team three horses travelled far
Before a stiff and armoured plough as all my masters are.

I found the ground was baked so hard 'twas more like bricks than clay
I could not cut my furrow through nor would my beasts obey
The more I whipped and slashed and swore the less my horses tried
Dobbin lay down and Belle and Star ignored my threats and cries.

Till low above me appeared a youth he seemed to hang in air
And all around a dazzling light which made my eyes to stare
"Give over cruel wretch" he cried "do not thy beasts abuse
Think if the ground was not so hard they would their work refuse".

"Besides I heard thee curse and swear as if dumb beasts could know
Just what your oaths and cursing meant it's better far than gold
That you should know that there is one who knows thy sins full well
And what shall be thy after doom another shall thee tell."

No more he said but light as air he vanished from my sight
And with him went the sun's bright beams 'twas all as dark as night
The thunder roared from underground the earth it seemed to gape
Blue flames broke forth and in those flames appeared an awful shape.

"I soon shall call thee mine" he cried with a voice so clear and deep
And quivering like an Aspen leaf I woke out of my sleep
So ponder well you ploughboys all this dream that I have told
And if the work goes hard with you its worth your wage in gold.

I've never come across this - but I here's a YouTube clip of a rather strange arrangement from 1974 by a band called Gryphon

Pull on a loose thread and youn never know where you might end up...

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:14 PM

Very interesting, McGrath, esp. some of the "sound effects." Neat song, though!

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:34 PM

Interesting clip of Gryphon - I wonder why they didn't use the correct tune? In fact the real thing has been much more recently recorded by Coope Boyes and SImpson on their CD Triple Echo - with the tune that we're all familiar with.

Marje - "Surreysinger: why do so many English people have such a problem with "iron"? They seem to pronounce it as if it were spelt "ion" or "iorn"." Errmm, Marje, simply because that _is_ the way that we pronounce it when speaking proper! So singing it as "eye-ron" sounds badly wrong and over the top, and foreign. And results in hesitancy in pronunciation, and lack of conformity of vowels

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Young Buchan
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:37 PM

I refuse to let a thread with this title go past without appealing to every one of you who can find the video, and has ancient enough technology to play it, to watch Branagh's b/w film In The Bleak Midwinter. OK, the plot creaks like a privvy door. And Branagh isn't actually in it. But it's LOVELY. Look down, look down at my bed foot./You'll see a basin stand there./ That basin's full of tears I shed/While watching stuff by Branagh.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

It would hardly do for this thread to pass without some pedant pointing out the extreme poetic licence which Ms. Rosetti saw fit to indulge in when penning the first stanza:

In the bleak midwinter,
frosty wind made moan,
earth stood hard as iron,
water like a stone;
snow had fallen, snow on snow,
snow on snow,
in the bleak midwinter,
long ago.

I have just checked the weather forecast for Bethlehem (Israel, not PA) and the temperature tomorrow is expected to reach 21 degrees Celsius (70 degrees Fahrenheit)

Is there any reason to suppose that the climate was any different in December between 1 BC and 1 AD ?

I don't think we need to sympathise retrospectively with Baby Jesus an account of his nursery conditions, temperature-wise at any rate ...

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:02 PM

Finding this carol ethnocentric (i.e., whenever I've checked the temperature, at Christmas, in Bethlehem, it's been about 15 degrees celsius) is one of the reasons I penned this...

Poem 230 of 230: AS GOSPELLERS HAVE SAID/CHRISTMAS SUNG SIMPLY

(TUNE:

D A B A G E
E E D G F# G
D A B A G E
D A B A G E
E E D G F# G
D A B A G E
E E D G F# G

D A B A G E
E D G F# G
D A B A G E
E D G F# G)

As gospellers have said,
Beneath signalling skies,
On land dusty to tread,
A trough in a stable
Was the strawy first-bed
Of a divine baby -
The forgiving Godhead.

A season for new hope -
There then, and here now;
The yuletide of goodwill -
There then, and here now.

In respect of this chance,
Beneath bright or dark skies,
Faith's the star that we glance
Attending Christ's churches
And trying to enhance,
With singing and ritual,
Our God-loving stance.

A...

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM

That's a lot of alternate tunings, WV ...

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

Well, it was quite sunny today in Harlow and a week ago the place was deep in snow.

Here's a page with some pictures of Bethlehem in the snow: "Three days later, Bethlehem had its annual snow day. It was coming down pretty good. Since Bethlehem is built on hills, the snow almost totally stopped traffic. I walked around and took photos. Got into a few halfhearted snowball fights."

People have this assumption that it's always sunny out in the Holy Land, and it's not true.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Tradsinger
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:31 PM

It may interest you to know that Holst, who was born in Gloucestershire, named the tune 'Cranham' which is the name of an exceptionally pretty Gloucestershire village with an exceptionally good pub which welcomes live music. I have sung the carol in the Stroud valley with the lights of Cranham in the distance. Very atmospheric.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:37 PM

A snowfall doesn't make for the nuclear winter portrayed in Rosetti's poem, Kevin.

frosty wind made moan ?
earth stood hard as iron ?
water like a stone ?

I don't think so.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:48 PM

Just try sleeping rough in it, Murray...

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: ClaireBear
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:55 PM

Have you ever been in a desert at night? Brrrrr!

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:17 PM

Hmmm...let us see:


frosty wind made moan ?

Did the wind really moan or did it make someone else moan. If the latter, it may have just unnerved them. Or, perhaps they had a fever and it *felt* frosty to them. Or, maybe Rossetti didn't have the resources we do to know what the weather was like OR she was using poetic license!:-)

earth stood hard as iron ? Ever tried to dig in the desert, esp. if the sand is hard-packed? Standing hard needn't mean frozen cold.

water like a stone ?

This one has me flummoxed, too. Even ice doesn't seem like stone to me, so this one is anybody's guess IF you want to pick it apart.

So, Murray, have at it...what else bugs you about it?

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:25 AM

Hey Kat, I love the carol, me.

Just exercising my right to pedantry.

Strangely enough, I have never been involved in desert excavation at night, (or in the daytime either for that matter), but I do realise that it can get cold in the desert at night, although maybe not quite to the Arctic extent described by Ms. Rosetti.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

From: Murray MacLeod - PM
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM

"That's a lot of alternate tunings, WV ..."...fair comment but, then, so do some English trad carols - e.g. the "Sans Day Carol". Anyway, if you wish to hear if it works - myspace player .

From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

"Well, it was quite sunny today in Harlow and a week ago the place was deep in snow.

Here's a page with some pictures of Bethlehem in the snow: "Three days later, Bethlehem had its annual snow day. It was coming down pretty good. Since Bethlehem is built on hills, the snow almost totally stopped traffic. I walked around and took photos. Got into a few halfhearted snowball fights."

People have this assumption that it's always sunny out in the Holy Land, and it's not true."...I noticed that was dated in February, and admit that, if so, it's quite good evidence to the contrary...but I wonder if there is any record of a "white Christmas" in Bethlehem?..surely, if so, that would be on the web somewhere..?

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:04 AM

Young Buchan - I agree - great film! I have the video which I managed to purchase in a charity shop after much hunting for it. Must go and watch it again now you've put the idea in my head!

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Marje
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:43 AM

Surreysinger: OK, stick to "ion" or "iorn" if you like, but don't be surprised if it doesn't form two distinct syllables as it seems to have done at the time the verse was written. Older pronuncations are often closer to the spelling, and far from being "foreign", they go back for centuries. It still comes very naturally to many hundreds of thousands of native speakers of English to say "i-ron", as written, and in this case it makes the song more singable.

And as for the Global Warming issue - I think Rosetti would have been perfectly aware that Bethlehem did not suffer freezing cold winters. The poem was written for an audience for whom Christmas was closely associated with the depths of winter, and she's simply linking the Christan imagery to the climate and weather that we generally experience during the festive season. Poetic licence - why not? It's a song, not a historical account.

Marje

Subject: ADD Version: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:16 AM

Well that time of year has come round again and I fancy singing the BMW song. Didn't quite have the stamina to read all of the above but I note 1) that people have trouble fitting the words to the tune and 2) some people are not impressed by the poem either. I have to agree, I don't like all that theology in the middle, though the first and last verses have some merit. So in the spirit of the tradition I would like to offer my rewrite- it has a new middle verse and you can sing it to the tune!


IN THE BLEAK MIDWINTER
(Christina Rossetti)

In the bleak mid-winter
Frosty wind made moan;
Earth stood hard as iron,
Water hard as stone;
Snow on snow had fallen,
Snow on snow on snow,
In the bleak mid-winter,
Many years ago.

In a distant country,
In a cattle shed,
Ox and ass to tend him,
Straw to make his bed.
Milk and bread to feed him,
Hay to keep him warm.
In a land of strangers,
Shelter from the storm.

Just what can I give him,
Poor man that I am?
If I were a shepherd
I would give a lamb;
If I were a wise man
I would do my part;
Yet what I can I give him?
I will give my heart.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:46 PM

In the Bleak Midwinter is a beautiful poem and has been set to a beautiful tune. It expresses the poet's vision of an event they believe to be important. It is not passed off as a historical account. Nor should it be considered theologically accurate or appropriate. It is a poem expressing the vision of the poet.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:17 PM

Love this version of ~In The Bleak Mid Winter.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:29 PM

This, is my favourite tune, by Harold Darke.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM

II had a quick scan of this thread and don't know if I missed something but Holst wrote the original tune and Darke's version is an arrangement/setting of this, not a different tune.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Marje
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:08 AM

No, Darke's tune is a different melody, not just a different setting. It uses exactly the same rhythm and has a somewhat different chord sequence, so you couldn't even sing the two versions together. If you listen to the two links above you can hear the two different tunes.

Marje

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:47 AM

I'm sorry to disagree Marje. As someone pointed out a few threads back, if we were discussing a trad folk song, then there would be no doubt that Darke's version is well and truly based on Holst's original setting of Rossetti's poem. Which is better is a matter of personal taste.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 12:01 PM

I'm with Jim on that. Darke's version is undoubtedly what you'd call a variant, if they were both folk songs. It sounds as if someone had had heard the Holst tune a couple of times thirty years ago, and tried to reconstruct it from memory. I think Darke had a bit of a nerve really, writing a "new" tune that was so like a pastiche of the original. If it works, don't mend it would have been the better principle here, leave Holst alone!

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Marje
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 12:15 PM

Well, it's not easy to prove that they're different, but here goes with some examples:

The Holst tune uses the same distinctive phrase (rising from the 3rd of the scale up to the 5th and then down to the tonic)for the beginning of the first, second and fourth lines; the Darke tune does not use this phrase at all, but uses three different bits of melody for those three sections. At the end of the second line, the Holst tune goes back to the tonic chord (is that what you call it? 1,3,5 of the scale)whereas this chord would clash if you played it with the Darke tune. And then Darke uses that flattened seventh in the third line, which doesn't correspond to anything in the Holst tune. And so on.

I agree that in many ways Darke's tunes seems like a badly-remembered reconstruction of Holst's, but what he ends up with is a different (and less good) melody with a different harmonic structure.

Marje

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Singing Referee
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 12:29 PM

I agree with Marje, they are different melodies, but I appear to be in the minority in preferring Darke's.

I like to sing the two tunes to alternate verses and see if anyone spots the difference. Takes bit of practice though, not to get confused.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 03:35 PM

Marje says it's not easy to spot the difference and the Singing Referee says he likes to sing alternate verses to the two tunes to see if anyone spots the difference, and yet both say they are different tunes!

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: andrew e
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 04:13 PM

It's a different tune!
The timing is pretty much the same, which makes them sound so similar at first, till you get to the last line of each verse.
The Harold Darke version is a choir piece with organ part, has a tenor solo, and the Gustav Holst is more suitable for a congregation.
I like and have sung them both.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Surreysinger
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 06:37 PM

It's hardly surprising that the timing is pretty much the same, as they are both settings of the same poem. As to the tune, for me Darke is the better of the two, and was the one I was brought up on at school. As a choral singer I have sung both versions over the years (the Darke, sadly, less often) and have never really liked the Holst version.

There are, of course, other versions of it, most notably Benjamin Britten's as part of his work "A Boy is Born". More recently a new setting was composed by Robin Doveton

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:13 PM

Jim, if you look again you will see that Marje says "...it's not easy to prove that they're different" which is very different from what you reported her as saying- on the contrary, she goes on to explain the differences between the two tunes (which is what I think they are).

I prefer the original tune, perhaps because this is the one I grew up with- my favourite carol.

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:05 PM

After so much discussion about the tunes, let's get the words right. (posted correctly at least twice on this thread., so no issue with that.)
But how often do you hear folk sing; "Yet what can I give him", when it should be 'Yet what I can, I give him" - a huge difference in meaning, and yes, does take a bit more fitting in to the music, but certainly not impossible!

Subject: RE: In the Bleak Midwinter
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:05 AM

Well folks, I willl concede that Darke's version differs from Holst's but I still say that Darke's version is just that, a variant of Holst's.