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Timothy McVeigh
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:15 AM I think that they should come up to him as he's lieing there, strapped to the gurney and tell him that the closed circuit T.V. broke and that no one will see him die except the state-mandated witnesses. And let him think he's going to die alone. Don't give him that final satisfaction, that final audience. troll |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Jimmy C Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:30 AM We do not have the right to take a life except in self defense, even the life of someone like McVeigh. Jail him for life, but not in these so called jails that are more like hotels. BTW it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in jail. All the lawyers fees, appeals, stays of execution etc all amount to more than the cost of a lifetime in prison. Put him away but televise his lonely, hopeless existence from time to time, that would be a better deterrent than killing him. Make a video of him wasting away in a prison cell and use it in schools to get the message across that crime does not pay. His execution would have little effect, we see worse in movies and on TV every day. Innocent unborn children are being killed in their thousands every year and it is hardly noticed, why should the death of a madman be anything special. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:03 AM I'm against the death penalty, but I've no objections to him having his rectum widened every day for the rest of his life, in the meanest "correctional institution in the land. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Chip2447 Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:25 AM Midchuck, I tend to agree wholeheartedly. What would the topic of this thread be if a law officer had shot and killed Mr McVeigh as he was trying to park his truckbomb. Would we be lynching said officer for undue deadly force, or would we be praising him for saving untold lives? Let McVeigh be a martyr, and lets televise him being blown to pieces by a device similar to the one he constructed, lets just see how bravely he faces the fate that he has subjected others to. When someone else wrongly believes that the senseless slaughter of innocents is the way to achieve their fifteen minutes of fame, they should then be subjected to the same treatment. We as a society have a duty to insure that these people will never be able to repeat their actions. The only way that we can absolutly prevent them from a repeat performance is to become the instrument of their demise. Chip... |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Conor Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:10 AM Several of my family were executed; another was jailed as a young lad, and in jail the governor took an interest in this bright kid who'd got involved with murderers (Pinkerton's men). The governor put him in charge of the library and talked to him about books, and also about the philosophy of life. The descendants of the executed people grew up with vengeance in their hearts. The lad who became the prison librarian changed from being an almost psychopathic child (torturing animals, trying to kill his young cousin) to being a decent and kind man. He lived a long and honourable life, contributing to his society with his work, and brought up a family of good people. He died last year +RIP+ Execution, and the attitude of vengeance, breeds hatred and a desire for revenge. Kindness and help is what people need. If someone is *incapable* of reform (and there are a few of these), then he needs to be in a prison where he is well treated and has all he needs. Not only does punishment and torture not work, it's stupid and wilfully cruel if people can't help themselves. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Fiolar Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:26 AM Some interesting points made. As an ex-nurse of some 37 years experience, I have witnessed, I suppose several hundred people die in the course of my career. Every one that I remember slipped away peacefully. Some were gone in a matter of moments. Regarding McVeigh - an injection will allow him to fall peacefully asleep. Several science fiction stories over the years had an interesting concept. The killer was made to experience time and time again the last moments of the victim. I suppose that concept is in the realms of fantasy, but just imagine if some of the billions spent on arms were turned to that type of research. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:40 AM I currently work in a prison as a nurse. From what I have seen, humans are remarkably adaptable to their conditions. I cannot imagine spending even five minutes in prison, with all my decision making ability stripped from me. But convicts have a remarkable ability to adapt. I think this is good, as we do not want a large population of insanely angry prisoners, many of whom are there for non-violent crimes. I am against capital punishment. But I also feel that society's worst criminals, such as McVeigh, need a worse punishment than life in the general prison population. I say let's let Mr. McVeigh try to adapt to the next sixty years of his life in total isolation, in a six by eight cell, instead of the execution which he understandably desires. BlueJay |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:50 AM This "punishment" business seems so pointless. It's not going to change anything. I'm for reform if people are capable of it, pleasant incarceration if they're not. The idea that the surviving relatives of someone who has been murdered feel better if the person who did it is harmed strikes me as a bit iffy. Perhaps they feel better for a while; I can't see it improving their lives forever. Punishment is an unintelligent approach. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Whistle Stop Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM I assume we all agree that McVeigh has done a horrible thing. But trying to dream up ever-more-hellish punishments for him will not solve anything; in fact, it will only foster an increased callousness among the rest of us. So far in this thread we have heard some discussion of the pros and cons of the death penalty, along with a lot of comments that basically say "let's do THIS to him; that would REALLY be horrible!" My personal view is that the death penalty doesn't do anyone much good, and should be abolished. But I am appalled by the number of comments here that promote gang rape and other forms of torture as an appropriate means for society to impose "justice". It sickens me that so many in our society feel that physical and psychological torture should be instruments of government-sponsored punishment for criminals -- no matter what they have done. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:28 AM Blue Jay, I like the way you think. Chip2447, what if he Guest, if you want pleasant incarceration, you pay for it. I think that the families of murder victims should be exempt from all taxes.Why should they have to pay for the perpetrator to live in "pleasant incarceration" when they have been deprived of a father, etc. and are having to support themselves without the victims emotional and(possibly) financial support. Where are the rights of the victim in all this? troll |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: kendall Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:31 AM Watch closely anyone in whom the desire to punish is strong. I repeat, to kill him is to free him. Another thing. How many times have other countries refused to extridite criminals back here because of our death penalty? |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Just Wondering Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:46 AM Interesting that a couple of contributors suggest rape as a suitable punishment (partial) for McV. And televising it too. Doesn't that open up a can of worms. What does this say about these contributor's attitude to rape? And our attitude (as a society)to sexual violence? Would McV have been "asking for it"? Who are the "civilized" ones here? Creepy! |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:27 AM Good comment, Kendall. Yes indeed "Watch closely anyone in whom the desire to punish is strong"... I grew up with a father who had that attitude, and I am still repairing the psychological damage he did to me. From him I inherited fears that I have yet to completely exorcise. People who are in favour of raping, torturing, punishing, and executing those whom they deem "evil" should all get the chance to experience such treatment themselves first at the hands of someone who thinks the same way they do, before passing final judgement on the usefullness of such behaviour. Just as people who are in favour of war might benefit from experiencing it firsthand...instead of cheering from the bleachers. I believe that reincarnation may actually play a useful role in arranging such scenarios, by the way, but that's a whole other discussion... For the vengeful, people like Timothy McVie become a handy symbol on which to vent their unreleased fear and hatred. And that was the same problem McVie had himself. He no doubt felt, and still feels, very righteous about his own punishment of those he deemed "evil" and worthy of execution. Different guy....same basic problem. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:06 PM Troll, what a financial attitude you show. In Europe, everyone does pay, through our taxes, for incarceration of those convicted of murder. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: JedMarum Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:09 PM I am not sure how the punishment idea got mixed up with exection - but I don't think it belongs there. I do not support Mc Veigh's execution because I believe he needs punishment. The fact that I would like to see a meaningful punishment applied on him is a seprate matter. I support the execution of McVeigh because it is the rite my society practices for cases of extreme transgression. This act (execution) is a ritual act designed to provide value to society as a whole, in the form of retribution. It says to the condemned, "You have committed a most grevious offense against mankind and will therefore pay mankind's ultimate price." Execution does not solve any problems, it does not make the condemned a better person (directly), it does not necessarily help the victim or victim's family (though some may feel comfort/closure). It is one of the tenets of social justice, in a society that chooses to implement it - and so far, Americans overwhelmingly believe it has value. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: mousethief Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:13 PM Do they? Overwhelmingly? I fear you overstate your case. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: kendall Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:22 PM A Rose said in The African Queen, "Nature, Mr.Allnut, is what we were put on the earth to rise above. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: JedMarum Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:28 PM Yes, Alex - overwhelmingly. I do not overstate the case. According the Portrait of America (the USA's most widely used opinion polls); 70% of Americans support execution for capital crimes. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: mousethief Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:30 PM No wonder we have such a high murder rate. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Amergin Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM Well, guest, Just wondering, %Rape is the most humiliating thing a human being can ever endure. It is even more so for males. MacVeigh clearly thinks highly of himself and of his deed. Rape would take that all away. With some one like MacVeigh, throwing him in the general population would destroy him more than a needle would. Does that answer your fucking question? |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Amergin Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:36 PM Well, guest, Just wondering, %Rape is the most humiliating thing a human being can ever endure. It is even more so for males. MacVeigh clearly thinks highly of himself and of his deed. Rape would take that all away. With some one like MacVeigh, throwing him in the general population would destroy him more than a needle would. Does that answer your fucking question? Flame away.... |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: mousethief Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:39 PM So Amergin, you're saying that the point of the justice system is to take people down a peg, to put a dent in their self-esteem? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Whistle Stop Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM Jed, I understand what you're saying about execution being a rite that exists for the good of society -- not as punishment, not as a way to cure the evil done by the condemned, but as a way to express society's most extreme condemnation of the most extreme forms of criminal behavior. But I think that we need to question whether it truly provides "value to society as a whole, in the form of retribution." Is retribution of any real value? Should society's highest aim in these cases be retribution, or should it be increased understanding of the roots of evil acts like this one? I'm sure I'd be labeled soft on crime for feeling this way, but I don't think "punishment" is really worth much. When we punish violent criminals harshly, they generally turn even more violent. When we kill them (coldly, deliberately, at a point when they no longer represent a threat to us), WE become more violent. I can't claim to have all the answers, but I really think that our whole concept of criminal justice in this society needs to be rethought -- what we have now is not working very well, for anybody. I say this with the utmost respect for your point of view, by the way. I thank you for not throwing insults or adopting a hostile attitude towards those who disagree with you (wish some others would follow your example). |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Just Wondering Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:52 PM An interesting response Amergin. It raises even more questions. Would we actually employ, ie pay a person(s) to rape Mr. McVeigh? How would we recruit such a person(s)? Would they be paid by the government and would this punishment be carried out in a government institution under controlled conditions? Or would we throw him to a mob, always assuming of course that there would be present those capable of performing this act? How many times should he be raped in order to degrade him enough? How would we get around the fact that rape is a crime? Would we institutionalize it and make it a regular method of punishment? I guess anything is possible as we have already institutionalized murder (ie, execution), as a legal way of disposing of our problems. Just Wondering.... |
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Subject: Futility of vengeance From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:00 PM "They're selling postcards of the hanging..." (Dylan) That "strange fruit" thread a few weeks ago was a shocking reminder for me of how recently it was that American trees bore that srange fruit. If this thread had come first, I would have known that the lynch mob mentality lives on still. Worse, maybe it lurks deep in the psyches of us all. But that's no excuse for indulging it in law. I find it profoundly disturbing that otherwise intelligent people can see the role of a civilised society, acting in the cold light of day, as being to gratify our crudest instincts. Midchuck said: "the initiator has opted out of civilized society, so others have no ethical restrictions on what they do to him." Maybe Midchuck, or Jed Marum, or someone of that ilk, could say what shallow kind of a community it is that allows a Timothy McVeigh to destroy its values and reduce it to eye-for-an-eye barbarity. Do they really not question, just a little bit, the way Sharia law is applied in Saudi Arabia? (I know the USA and UK governments don't.) I admit I won't come close, but I'll take my lead from Mrrzy thanks. If it was between Mrrzy and a hate-filled victim snarling retribution, I'd put my money on Mrzzy to be the one to pick up the pieces and make some sense out of the rest of his life. It beggars belief that anyone can favour the latter as a template for communal values. Pity our children. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Willie-O Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:01 PM Well, this is weird and intense. Some strange rationalizing goes on about this. Next month when they kill him, the chance of finding more truth about the killing will die too. He's getting what he wants, alright. I think the stone-faced SOB has some kind of a sense of values, and he is quite satisfied with the outcome here, because he lives in a fucking comic book world. One of the rationalizations he has made for the bombing is based on "Star Wars" as a moral guide. He points out that before Luke destroys the Death Star, you see that there are people working at desks and so on in the Death Star. They're not hurting anyone directly, but they're part of the infrastructure of the Death Star, so it's right to kill them. Nobody asked him if there was a day care centre on the Death Star; let's say there was. Blowing it up was still something that had to be done, and deserved honour and celebration. If you live in a fucking fantasy world. Which TM apparently does. Back here on Earth, though, killing other people is wrong. It just leads to more and worse mayhem and poisons peoples' minds and hearts as they struggle for an appropriate response. Willie-O
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: JedMarum Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:49 PM Whistle Stop - I believe you've hit the essence of the question when you ask, "I think that we need to question whether it truly provides 'value to society as a whole, in the form of retribution.' Is retribution of any real value?" My arguement is this; my society has a belief that retribution has value. The plurality of that opinion is an important part of my own support for execution of those convitced of captial crimes. Note I do not try to argue to change minds of those who disagree. I voice my support and I attempt to explain the position. Fionn - I cannot answer your question, "what shallow kind of a community it is that allows a Timothy McVeigh to destroy its values and reduce it to eye-for-an-eye barbarity" because I disagree with the premise. I do not believe that Timothy McVeigh has destroyed my societies values. And I do not believe that execution, as it is generally applied in the USA is akin to an "eye-for-an-eye barbarity" - I realize that the values you talk about may not be ones you support, but that does not mean they are corrupt or even wrong. And I believe, as I stated above, that retribution is not by itself barbaric. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM "lets just see how bravely he faces the fate that he has subjected others to"
The chances are that he will "face it bravely" - and the effect of that is going to be to recruit more McVeighs out somewhere in America. That's part of the price paid for capital punishment. A pretty heavy price for the people who will be killed by McVeigh's hero-worshippers.
There was a James Cagney film (Angels with Dirty Faces was it?)in which he was about to be executed for murder. Being a hero, he was all set up to die staunch - then he thought about the kids who thought of him as a hero, so he put on a big act of dying as a coward, pleading for his life and crying out for mercy, to put his admirers off the idea of hero-worshipping him. But somehow I can't see McVeigh having the humanity or compassion to do anything like that. No, he'll die as a toughie. Big deal. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Ebbie Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:16 PM Just to broaden the net here just a bit, do you have any thoughts on what goes on in the heads of some people in response to a figure like this? Evidently, McVeigh has received "hundreds" of letters from women (the article didn't mention men) interested in a "love" relationship with him. Unless they may be thinking something along the lines of "My love will redeem him", I can't conceive of a reason for such a reaction.
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:44 PM WHistle Stop, you're right. Mine was a knee-jerk reaction to the barbarity of his crime. I'm always against the death-penalty until the next hideous crime occurs (especially if children are involved), and then I have my knee-jerk reflex "Fry the bastard!" but that reflex passes eventually. Some serious food for thought in these postings. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:46 PM Ditto Seamus - that's been my first reaction many a time. I just hope I'm never part of a society that takes its steer from what goes on in the pit of my stomach, in the heat of the moment! |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Peg Date: 19 Apr 01 - 02:44 AM Willie-O: very well said. I had the chance to interview John Waters (the weird filmmaker) several years ago and asked him about his interest in serial killer memorabilia, etc. He has some very interesting views on crime and punishment and has read more "true crime" type literature than I would have thought humanly possible. One thing he said which really stood out for me at the time, and which much of this thread has made me reflect upon...is that, in the days when he first became interested in the events surrdounding contemporary mass murderers, said killers *went to trial.* Nowadays, he said, they all kill themselves. And so our fascination with such figures has changed. We no longer get to watch the wheels of justice turn. We watch these monsters go out in a blaze of glory which is pretty much of their own design. Even in the case of McVeigh, who may have thought for a time he would not get caught, but who surely knew that, once he did, he would face execution. So I think it is very astute to assume that Mr. McVeigh sees his death as an act of martyrdom; not something being done TO him, but something he has chosen. And to give him that power, that satisfaction, may well be something his victims (and their families) would balk at. That said, I still think state-sanctioned murder is very, very wrong.
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:37 AM Willie-O - You are clearly right that Timothy McVie lives in a fantasy world, and that that led him to commit (and justify in his own mind) a hideous crime. The thing that struck me while I was reading your comments, though is this...virtually everybody lives in a fantasy world. My workaholic father does. My paranoid mother does. Everybody I know does, in one sense or another. I do. I am well aware of some of my tendencies to fantasize, but am also probably quite unaware of some of the others that I take for granted, and which lead to my usual typical behaviour. The only difference with Timothy McVie is this...his fantasies happened to be on a much more dangerous level than is the case with most of us, and he acted them out where many would not have gone that far. I kid you not. We all walk around in our own state of unreality, and take it ever so seriously. Look at the present state of the world, and you can see where it is leading us...as a race of semi-intelligent beings. The world doesn't need another shopping mall or another casino...it needs clean air, clean water, open land, old growth forests, renewable agriculture, space reserved for wild animals and plants...and all that could be done...but we are way too busy walking around in our collective fantasy world, doing business as usual. It's Fantasy Island on a very large scale.... Ebbie - It's not surprising that any number of women have written love letters to McVie. It just shows there are a lot of really lonely people out there, sitting in their lonely little lives, and trying desperately to find some sense of meaning to fill their emptiness. McVie is "famous" (or infamous...), so he gets the attention of some of them. It happens with anyone who is famous, whether they are a movie star or a serial murderer. It's sad and pathetic, but it's not surprising. I'm sure that some of them have convinced themselves that he is a martyr. Some may even think he's innocent! (anything is possible) Some may think they can redeem him. Etc.... Some people who feel that they are "outsiders", irrevocably isolated from the rest of society, may well identify with someone like McVie. I remember when the O.J. thing was happening...virtually everyone around here believed he was guilty...based on forensic evidence, and his thoroughly incriminating behaviour, both before and after Nicole's murder. And yet, there were 2 individuals I knew who were ABSOLUTELY convinced that he was innocent, that he had been framed, that there was a massive police conspiracy to fake evidence, involving a very large number of people on a high level...and so on. I have no idea how those 2 people came to such a conclusion (it was not for reasons of "race"), but they did. And they never wavered from it. Like I said, anything is possible. (To some people it is very appealing to take an unpopular or unusual position on a given issue, because it makes them feel like they are smarter than most people, because they know something that the others don't. Along that line, I have a friend who only likes music that virtually NOBODY else he knows likes...it has happened too many times now to be a mere coincidence...he enjoys being an outsider, and it makes him feel superior, I believe, on an intellectual and artistic level.) I have also met a few elderly Germans (all very nice people in a general sense) who have gone on believing to this day that Hitler was a very good man who was led astray by various corrupt underlings, such as Himmler, Goering, etc., and that he was doing wonderful things for Germany, but it presumably got ruined by those underlings. So, like I said, anything is possible. Depends on the person's initial frame of reference...as to how they happen to be seeing and interpreting reality...from their little vantage point on the world stage. In the final analysis, it has little or nothing to do with whether the person is "evil" or not, but rather with what the person is or is not aware of. Basically "good" people can commit the most evil of acts under certain circumstances...and feel justified. It happens every day in the most ordinary of families and situations, all over this world, and never gets on the news at all. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Seth in China Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:02 AM I think of Sirhan Sirhan, in his prison cell in California, down now for 32 years and counting. I hope that some readers of this post will say " Who the hell is Sirhan Sirhan?" He was just some confused, Palestinian man, about McVeigh's age, who also thought he had found the answer to his question, and through a heap of twisted logic, decided that the message coming back was that he needed to take the life of Robert Kennedy. So he did. Changed the course of American history, I do believe. At that time, capital punishment did not exist in the U.S., so they put Sirhan Sirhan away. Did America grieve for Kennedy? Oh, my God,yes< but they couldn't legally execute this guy ( I think the Kennedy murder was the only crime he ever did)so what could they do? McVeigh is a criminal, to be sure, but a messianic one, not the kind that most prisons are full of.The people who have the most horrific experience of prison are those who committed capital crimes out of emotion or passion. For those folks to go from outside to inside without any experience of jail, prison, or prison "culture" it's really horrific. For people who thirst for vengeance and retribution, I can think of nothing harsher and more difficult to contemplate than an entire lifetime spent in a U.S. prison, particularly for a man whose greatest wish is to be remembered. To be locked down that way is to put the strongest curse on somebody "forget you,motherfucker" When they kill Tim McVeigh, it will be quick and quiet after a huge media extravaganza. Whatever he has to say, people will not get the cathartic experience that they crave. I say punish the man by permanent separation, till he grows old and grey and crazy, and those of us who hope for these things, will hope that the time will prove that no one is beyond remorse and redemption, even this lost soul. He is not a scapegoat, in the sense that he did the crime, but people are using him as a screen to focus a whole lot of that good ol'American dark energy, but you know what? Killin' that boy ain't gonna get the haint off ya. Seth from China |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: JedMarum Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:10 AM I agree, Seth and others - that the best punishment for Timothy is lock the door, throw away the key - solitary. I still think there is worth in society's ability to exorcise this 'evil' through the rite of execution. And I care more about the justice served for society then for a just result for Timothy. This has been a good thread. Thanks y'all for the thoughts. I do appreciate hearing all points of view. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Troll Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:51 PM I have long advocated just that punishment Jed, and have been roundly castigated for it; psychological damage, cruel and unusual, and all that. But I agree with you. Now how about this as an addition; that the families of the victims be exempt from all taxes. After all, how fair is it for them to have to contribute to supporting the life of someone who deprived them of the life of a loved one? The prisoner gets food, shelter, recreation, and medical care; all paid for by taxes. It is sometimes difficult for the family of the victims to provide these things for themselves, but they must contribute, through their taxes, to the upkeep of the very person who hurt them. Think about that. troll |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: kendall Date: 19 Apr 01 - 01:50 PM We must be careful about cruel and unusual punishment, remember, it is forbidden by the constitution. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Indy Lass Date: 19 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM A lot of us are discussing the generalities of executing lawbreakers who take away peoples lives or loved ones. This case involves a man who for whatever sick reason took away the lives and/or loved ones of 160-something families who were going about their daily lives and never saw death coming. They were all innocent of what made this man angry enough to do this bombing in his own "eye for an eye" rationale. Should we respond in kind by killing him (it would really have to be 168 times so to speak)? Or should we turn to the victims still alive but suffering and angry and ask them what they need in this situation to help them move ahead with their healing? It would be interesting to find out what each one would want. Maybe we should keep McVeigh alive long enough for each family to have their say about this matter and tailor the results to suit thier needs. Just my two cents... |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: mousethief Date: 19 Apr 01 - 02:12 PM LH, I wish you would spell his name right. McVie indicates two of the original members of Fleetwood Mac, a rather harmless pop group, that indeed gave me some fine moments of toe-tapping pleasure in my wastrel youth. McVeigh, on the other hand, is a multiple murderer. I don't think we should confuse the two. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Songster Bob Date: 19 Apr 01 - 02:14 PM I'd like to go back to the "organ farm" suggestion, because it's one that has shown up in sci-fi stories from time to time, and modern medicine is approaching the point where it could be possible. The problem is that, as people in our society become more and more inured to the idea that someone else is there to provide "spare parts," then the crimes for which this punishment is the accepted punishment will gradually become lower and lower in their "threshhold," so that eventually, you could be sentenced to dismemberment for what are now misdemeanors. Talk about a controlled society! Too many parking tickets, and bam! there go your eyes, or your spleen, and you'll have no recourse to remedy, since you were one of those who helped lower the bar for which crimes led to which punishments. Wouldn't that give the government a real hold on your short hairs? Literally! Bob C. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 01 - 03:57 PM Like nearly everyone else in the country, I have half-followed the McVeigh story since the beginning. Last week, I went to a search engine to try to find a current picture of the Federal Building, being curious as to whether they were able to rebuild it. I seem to have missed the news about them having torn it down and placed a monument where it used to be. Several interesting links that came up during this search, however, made me question everything that I hadn't missed in the news, most importantly how in the world a single truck bomb could have caused so much damage. The answer from the experts is: it couldn't have.
Based on the links below, I now have serious doubts as to whether McVeigh was involved at all. I rarely visit the Mudcat and have no interest in conspiracy theories, but based on the vindictive tone of most of the posts above, I thought it proper to point out that there are still very many unanswered questions regarding this case, and in my mind it is not clear that McVeigh is to blame entirely, if at all.
Information for inquiring minds:
The Fed knew an attack was imminent
Bomb Analysis by Brig. General Partin -- Disturbing Conclusions
Much more exist. I don't intend to revisit this thread any time soon, and in any event with the imminent execution of McVeigh, these issues will surely be buried forever. I simply ask you to consider that there is much left unanswered here, and putting McVeigh to death is One Sure Way to keep it so. Think and wonder. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Apr 01 - 04:50 PM Alex - Sorry about that. It's McVeigh, right? I have obviously been suffering from a mental block (or fatigue) on that particular spelling. (Strange...I'm usually so meticulous on stuff like that...maybe it's the musicians' names I was remembering.). I guess I was in a hurry or something. Troll - I find your suggestion about making victims of such violent crimes exempt from all taxes a bit odd. Why all taxes? And why only them? If they're disabled, then they should get a disability pension. God knows, there are times when I would like to be exempt from taxes! And for any number of good reasons. Like me, a lot of people are opposed to the building of more nuclear weapons and/or nuclear power plants. Why shouldn't those people be exempt from the part of their taxes which goes toward that particular industry? I am extremely opposed to the present government of Ontario, its whole vicious social policy, and its whole friggin' attitude toward the public, and I DIDN'T vote for them! Why shouldn't I be exempt from all Ontario taxes till they are out of office? They are a dictatorship until the next election, and they DID NOT receive a majority of the votes cast!!! (They received a plurality. More people didn't want them than did, but they still beat out the other 2 parties in a majority of ridings...the usual story around here.) I am opposed to the present penal system in either the USA or Canada, and consider it counterproductive. Why shouldn't I be exempt from funding it? I'll tell you why. It's too damned complicated to figure out such exemptions, to apportion them out fairly, to determine if they're really justified, and on what basis, etc., etc., ad infinitum. It's a totally unworkable idea in a practical sense. Besides, if the government gave you back the fraction of a penny that it costs you to keep Timothy McVeigh (or any other particular felon) in jail for a year, it would be so small that you wouldn't be able to see it with a industrial sized magnifying glass. I wish I could say the same for the portion of your taxes that goes toward high tech weaponry...like nuclear missiles. That chunk you would be able to see just fine, and those are the potential instruments of genocide. So that's my philosophical response to your tax proposal. I know that neither one of us, of course, is going to get what he wants out of this situation. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,El Gringo Viego Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:54 PM WHAT IF THEY GAVE AN EXECUTION AND NOBODY CAME? Let's all stay away from it, stop talking about it and let him die all alone. Gringo |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Seth from China Date: 20 Apr 01 - 04:41 AM THis is only half in jest. In a tribal society, someone would have the role of acting out the feelings of the tribe about a member who has transgressed all the boundaries. We don't have that in our culture of tangled myths and religions, but Americans, in particular, as opposed to Canadians, who share the same part of the continent, have something riding them and they need to get that monkey, that loa, off their back. A lot of crazy stuff happens in the U.S. that really doesn't happen much in other places, and it's not just because guns are readily available. We are a restless, itchy people. Some of my ancestors were on the Mayflower,(the ones that weren't getting away from the potato famine and the Welsh coal mines,) I know that if my homeland is anywhere it's in the U.S., but I felt a stranger in my home town, and I've felt that way every place I've lived in the U.S. I don't think I'm a special case-I think that's what it's like to be an American. Almost all of us are children of one diaspora or another. Well fed and housed to be sure for most of us, but still...something seems to make us want to kill and hurt each other. People seem to think that capital punishment is valuable in that it provides a form of closure, but the condemned rarely play the part well. Professional actors could play the roles of condemned men for maximum effect-we had an actor for president and people really loved him.- why not use an actor for people to hate? The problem with most people about to be executed is that they don't often give us what we want and need-remorse, apologies, pleas for forgiveness, or barring that, some appropriatly dramatic ending to their lives and to the suffering of everyone else. Most killers are pretty ordinary people, they just live and then they die, whether by the hand of the state or not. I say announce that he (or she) is going to be officially dead at a specific time, and then people can tune in and watch Wesley Snipes,Laurence Fishburne,John Turturo,Joe Pesci, Steve Buscemi, Harvey Keitel or some other actor do the death scene for them. Our culture is addicted to images, so why not use it. After the execution, the miscreant is declared dead, we see a coffin going into a hearse on TV, and everyone can go back to what they were doing before. The real miscreant is in a prison somewhere, where he or she can pursue legal appeals, DNA testing without a death date time constraint. I'm surprised they're not doing it already. Seth from China |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Troll Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM Seth, a rather novel idea. I've suggested before that they simply be put in solitary to live out their lives, make appeals, whatever but no one seems to like the idea much. Your way, it's all nice and sanitary and no one needs to feel guilty from a societal point of view. I wonder if people would try as hard to get someone released if they knew that he wasn't really going to die? troll |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,JTT Date: 20 Apr 01 - 05:36 PM I'd like to interduce my son Jim-Bob, he's a rapist fer the county - say hello, Jim-Bob...oh, don't mind him, the boy's shy... |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Devilmaster Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:27 PM A good book to read into the insights of the OKBOMB case, is a book called 'No Heroes' by Danny Coulson. Danny is a former FBI agent and the first commander of the Hostage Rescue Team for the FBI.
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Seth from China Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:05 PM Yeah, I'm working on a unified field theory of American craziness, a combination of porn, WWF, Jerry Springer, Jesus and grunge/rap hostility (none of it available in China) if people felt the need for revenge and retribution, they could just go to stomphisspine.com, and virtually experience the focus of their rage getting punished hundreds of ways, and they could run the video as often as they wanted. You want to see Timothy McVeigh get flayed, burned alive, drawn and quartered, fed to cro codiles, sodomized by a whole cell block while he screams for mercy-or have him in a Jerry Springer format trying to defend himself, while family members of the killed and injured try to assault him.? Have him grovel and beg for mercy while the audience hoots and jeers? Americans want to see the bad guy PUNISHED, not put to friggin' sleep like your best old sheep dog. Nobody wants to rub Tim's ears and say "it's okay, big guy." Just boot up, toot up, and U-PIC the PAIN! In China, it's not done this way. About once weekly, there is something on the news about someone who has received the death penalty. We see a man in shackles, his head bowed in shame. His family is in the background, weeping with shame and disgrace. After this, the prisoner disappears through a doorway and no more is heard about him. I think that he might get a bullet in the head ten minutes after the sentence, but I don't know enough about the Chinese criminal justice system to say that is a fact. But once the guards take him through the doors, it's over. this would never never work in the U.S., where it's hard to get anyone to say the are ashamed about anything. Seth |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:27 PM Seth - You raise a fascinating point when you say "why not use an actor for people to hate?" (and publicly punish the actor, so the people who hate him can feel satisfied...). That is what the entire world of professional "wrestling" (the WWF and their competitors) is based upon! And it is probably the single most vulgar, tasteless form of public entertainment in the world at this time...another example of the very dark side of the American dream turned into a nightmare. The movie "Man In The Moon" about the late Andy Kaufman (did I spell that right?) presented a lot of insights into that strange and twisted world of wrestling and what goes on there, and why. As you suggest, the audience is provided with actors who play the most despicable of villains, thus whipping up the wrestling fans into a frenzy of rage, hatred, and blood lust...and catharsis. It speaks volumes for the state of frustration and denial that a population has to be in for this stuff to be so popular. It is directly comparable to the gladiatorial obscenities that were daily faire in ancient Rome, only we have laws against publicly committing murder in a sports arena. If we didn't, we would be witnessing such murder on a regular basis, I am sure. We've learned a little, it seems, in the last 2,000 years...but not nearly enough. Well, when you bring up a population on the notion that watching more inane TV shows and buying more plastic stuff they absolutely don't need at the mall are all they really need to find fulfillment...no wonder some of them lose touch with reality and go off the deep end. They've been lied to all their lives. A society that executes people in an electric chair or by a chemical injection is itself as emotionally ill as the criminals it is executing...in my opinion. There are no easy answers to such situations, and executing people won't stop the violence, it will increase it...by at least a factor of ONE in each case. Murder is murder. I don't care who does it. Or why. It's still murder. We are all capable of it. That doesn't mean it is a good or a necessary thing. It's an act of weakness. Those who commit it are afraid. They may not know they're afraid, but they are. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Troll Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:41 PM OK Little Hawk, it's a sign of weakness. So what do we do with these weak murderers. Explaining an action does not excuse it. troll |
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