Significance of left shoulder

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:18 PM

What all our history has been written by angels? Why the hell isn't the world a whole better place then? Instead its been populated by sinister commies and dextrous capitalists. Yuck!

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: 8_Pints
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:30 PM

I seem to recall the reason for Gareth's assertion that the British & Irish drive/ride on the left was that whilst travelling, historically one's shield would be on the left arm providing protection against ambush from the nearside of the road.

Anyone attacking from the 'offside' would lose the element of surprise since they had further to travel to cross the carriageway before reaching the traveller.

Similarly, whilst jousting the knights would meet shield to shield with their lances aimed over the left shoulder of the horse aimed at the opponents shield area. i.e. each would pass to the right of their opponent.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 03:13 AM

And it was Napoleon's fault that the Europeans drive on the opposite side of the road. He thought it would confuse us when we invaded, something he never quite managed to do to us...... We just stomped all over the little Corsican anyway.

When you mount a horse, you do it unarmed. The squire or page or maid then hands you your weapons. I get on my motorbike from the left to right, because that's the side where the stand is. I've not worn any weapons on it yet, I'm dangerous enough as it is!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: The Walrus
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:41 AM

8 Pints,

Interesting theory but it's a pity that the "drive on the right" business didn't start until the 1790s...

"Drive in the Right" came about as a result of the revolution in France. While there was no formal ruling, traditionally waggons and carriages travelled on the LEFT side of the road throughout Europe (something more to do with the driver's whip hand), while the peasantry walked on the RIGHT, to avoid being run down from behind. With the coming of the revolution (and the accompanying terror, it was not wise to be on the left side of the road, even those with carriages chose to move over to "the people's" side of the road. With the coming of war (from1792), the National Assembly codified this practice to allow easier movement of troops and waggons. When the armies of the Republic (and later of Napoleon and the Empire) went stamping over the rest of the European mainland, they imposed French law (or a variation thereof) on the conquered territory and this included driving on the right. Those countries not occupied (Such as Britain and Sweden)remained driving on the left. When the USA adopted road traffic regulation, it appears that it took to driving on the right, presumably as an act or republican sympathy. As far as I can recall, the only places that drive on the left these days are some members of the Commonwealth, Ireland and Japan (although, I don't know about South East Asia).

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:00 PM

Spaw; good to see you're back on form, surely you know that Cherubim cling to the ceiling and seraphim soar from the floor.
Sourdough; a cracking metaphor, indeed.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:09 PM

Spaw, BTW, cherubim rank above thrones, but below seraphim; even heaven has a class system!When cherubim meet seraphim, they become headbangers, of course.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM

It's always, "I'd give my left nut to __________."

Of course when you feel embarrassed you might say "I feel a right pillock..."

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 07:37 PM

Which particular "Heaven" are you talking about, GUEST?

- LH

Oh and, the Walrus - I guess the person who wrote that passage about the Seraphim had had some kind of vision or experience in which he saw that six-winged Seraph. Whether or not his vision was accurate, I can't say. Maybe and maybe not.

I've seen some jpegs of a certain rumoured and possibly mythical entity named Catspaw49, and believe you me, they are pretty weird. I take it all with a grain of salt. Pictures can be faked, after all. Pictures this ugly have almost got to be faked!

I've also seen pictures of his clay possum. It's a little idol of some kind. A graven image. Watch out for these cultists, they can be dangerous.

- LH

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:11 AM

For those of you who had ever difficulties remembering which is which of the stalagmites/stalagtites dichotomy, you obviously need a good mnemonic.

Stalagtits are those that hang down.

You'll never make that wrong again til the end of you life.

As for the main topic, the right hand explanation is the correct one.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:58 AM

I don't know, Wolfgang, from what I've seen on TV and the movies, not to mention ads, the best tits are supposed to be those that stand proud. In the media those that hang are relegated to the old and ugly. *grin*

This is, of course, just an observation and not one I would buy into.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:12 AM

At the age of a stalagmite they hang. But for the sake of those who'd like to have a PC mnemonic:

Stalagmites are those that look like the little hills made by termites

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:15 AM

I dunno Wolfgang.........I think the stalactits hang down which mean the must be on the Cherabim which hang from the ceiling..........or is that the Seraphim?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: IanC
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:37 AM

Hi

The reason we drive on the left is that we're a seafaring nation and the steering oar was on the Starboard (steerboard) or right side. When coming into port, you didn't want to crush the oar so you came in on the port side.

Because you start and end on the left, you also drive on the left.

I was always told that the tights fall down and the mites crawl up.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:51 AM

Ohhhh - dunno about all this. But I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...

DtG

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: sophocleese
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:14 AM

Umm a useful mnemonic Wolfgang. I usually go with the old one stalgmites, with the 'g' for ground, stand up. Stalactites, with the 'c' for ceiling, hang down. Of course if you try spelling them both with a 'g' you'll be in trouble...

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM

Sophocleese, thanks,

the easy way out would be to claim a typo, but it was a genuine mistake. I was about to say that I just wrongly assumed the German spelling would be valid in English as well (it often is in these words, except for these k/c things) when I remembered to check the German spelling first. I have spelled that word wrong since several decades.

So obviously the advice, spell it as in German and replace k by c and adapt the ending, is still valid but only helpful if you know the German spelling.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:27 AM

Yes, Wolfgang, but is it necessarily the only correct explanation?

"Oh, we are living in a material world, and I am a material girl..." (all sing and dance...)

- LH

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Hollowfox
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM

(Getting back to the original question) Dave, your speculation about the accused sitting on the judge's left side makes more sense than anything I've seen in years. 'Spaw, I can bring a copy of a picture of a six-winges seraph to our ice cream date. Remind me.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:52 PM

Example: WHY DO PEOPLE EAT FOOD?

a) Because they feel hungry.

b) For entertainment.

c) Because it's fun. (see "b" above)

d) Because they want to fill that sense of emotional emptiness that's bothering them all the time.

e) Because Mommy (or someone else) told them to.

f) Because it's 12 noon, breakfast time, or supper time.

g) Because there's "nothing else to do".

h) Because the body needs nutrition.

i) Because it would "go to waste" otherwise.

Etc.......

Now is any one of those the "correct" answer in any exclusive sense? No. They are all valid answers under certain circumstances, given certain people's view of food, and what they're thinking (or not thinking) at the time.

People, in fact, frequently eat food for reasons which have nothing whatsoever to do with actual physical needs or the structure of their body and its natural functions.

- LH

p.s. Hesperis tells me that the first time she ever spilled salt (as a child), she naturally picked it up with her right hand and threw it over her right shoulder! She says the movement came naturally to her. She then recalled that there was a superstition about throwing salt over the left shoulder, and wondered if she should have done that.

I have given this some thought...and YES, it IS easier to pick up a small object with the right hand and simply throw it straight back over the right shoulder. Try it. It's marginally easier than reaching across your chest and throwing it over the left shoulder.

Poof! Another scientific theory bites the dust.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:05 PM

I'd much rather fill in the blank than do what Amergin does.

Alex

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:21 PM

I think Cherubim are children, and Seraphim are adults.

Stalagtites cling tight to the roof, was my mnemonic. I don't know the term for after tite has met mite and it's one thing from floor to ceiling (or ceiling to floor, depending, double ha ha) - maybe just plain Stalags? Oh, no, that's already taken.

I think that the Roman sinister didn't just mean left, but also evil and black and all that stuff we use sinister for. Dexter is certainly right and proper, not just right/not left. I think that is WHY the Roman word for left was sinister, because the superstition was already there. And yes, it's the devil thing that makes people in folk songs look over their left shoulder when about to do something evil... although in the Queen Eleanor case, it would have counted as justifiable.

Heart attacks shoot pain down your left arm because that is how the nerves grow, since the side of your heart with the nervous fibers is on the left. Strokes, however, will radiate pain according to where the stroke is, so a right-side stroke is felt on the left side of the body (not necessarily the headache, but the other affected parts), and a left-sided one on the right.

My Mom went through first through third grades with her left hand tied behind her back. She's still left-handed, but she writes with her right hand.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:24 PM

Ian C

Interesting theory on the steering Oar and it true regarding the origin of Starboard

But when I learn't my seamanship such as it is, it included the following menmonic

"When you see three lights ahead, #
Port your Helm, and show your red *
Green to Green, or Red to Red,
Safty ensures, full steam ahead "

# Green, White, and Red signifies a power vessel coming staight at you !

* put your tiller over to the left so that you swing to the right and expose your Red (port-left facing the sharp end) navigation light ie drive on the right.

Of course if you look astern and see Green, White and Red, mun youve got a problem !

Gareth

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From:
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:44 PM

Mounting a horse is one thing, but hanging it over the mantle is another matter.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Grab
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:22 AM

I understood that driving on the left was to keep the whip hand (right hand for most ppl) more available in case the horse on the opposite side drifted over into your lane; with your whip on that side, you could divert the horse back into its proper lane.

In areas with no pavements ("sidewalks" for Americans) in Britain, ppl still walk on the right-hand side of the road to face oncoming traffic, so you know what's coming and can dive out of the way if required.

IanC, certainly that's the origin of "starboard". But I believe steering oars had long since vanished by the time Britain became a major seafaring nation (Henry 8th kind of era).

Another interesting one for you - most spiral staircases, at least in older buildings, go up clockwise. If your castle was attacked and you were backing up a tower, your right hand was free to attack the person coming up, whereas his right hand would be blocked by the central pillar. I seem to remember hearing that one king/prince/lord actually assembled a group of left-handed soldiers specifically for attacking castle towers.

If you're right-handed, the sword will always be slung on your left side so that you can draw it across your body. This allows your hand to cover a distance twice the length of your arm, which is sufficient to draw most swords (and if it was bigger than that you probably couldn't lift it!) and it's a strong, natural movement. There is no way of drawing a sword (at least if it's bigger than a large knife) with your right hand if it's hung on your right-hand side. The maximum distance your hand can cover then is just the length of your arm (swords would often be longer than this), and it's quite a weak and awkward movement.

Finally, there's the custom of the left hand being the "dirty" hand, since that's the hand you wipe your bottom with - you eat (and shake hands) with your right hand. This is still the case in Middle Eastern and other poorer countries.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: IanC
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:31 AM

Graham

I use toilet paper

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: Grab
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 03:14 PM

Me too, Ian. But when you're in the middle of the desert and there's a choice between wiping with your hand or a handful of sharp gravel...

Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder
From: The Walrus
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 03:46 PM

Grab,

"...If you're right-handed, the sword will always be slung on your left side so that you can draw it across your body..." There's always one exception that proves the rule, in this case the Roman Army. The legionaire's Gladius(sp?) (stabbing sword) was worn on the right, but it was a relatively short weapon.

Regards

Walrus