Why are singer-songwriters called folksingers?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:35 PM

Of course someone writes everything--writing is the process of conceiving, creating, and finishing--I would say that it is possible to conceive, create, and finish a song without paper ever having been involved--And these great ballad that have been transmitted, orally, perhaps,if they were not "written" exactly what were they?

As to Bronson,just read this quote, "Of all deleterious influences on folk-song, the most corrosive and deadly is the consciousness of audience appeal" and remember that the word "audience" just means "people"--How could a "folk song" be a "folksong" if it did not appeal to audiences?--

Folk music, whatever it is, is something that is embraced by the masses, kept alive by the masses, and, probably created, if not by the masses, at least among the masses. That means that it isn't exclusive, pure, or noble--music has always performed by musicians, and, since time began, they have had a propensity for talking a buck where they could get it, playing a dance, singing a song, making a record--and that is what has kept these folksongs around--you can reuse, recycle, cut and paste--and, strangely enough, when you leave them to rest for a while, they get put back together again--

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Jim Krause
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:18 PM

Lately I have been calling myself a floksinger out of convenience. It is a convenient label for audiences to hang on me since they are going to immediately come to that conclusion the instant I walk on stage toting my accousitc guitar. OK, fine with me.

I'd say about half of my material is public domain, and the other half is original. Does that make some one like me a folk singer? I don't know, and I don't really care, since the whole point is the song not the label. If the promoter, the listener, or the radio DJ needs to label me folk so they'll have a place to file my record in the library, then I can live with the label, whether it is technically accurate, or not. Certainly the Smithsonian, or the Library of Congress, wouldn't consider me folk. That suits me fine, too. Meanwhile, back at the ol' Bar S, I have guitar to practice and another show to get ready for.
Jim

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: GUEST,MudWeasel
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM

My rebuttal to Toadfrog, not a quote, my own words:

Of all deleterious influences on folk-song, the most corrosive and deadly are the people who think that a folk-song ahs a fixed and unchanging form.
Get real! A folksong that is even as young as fifty years old has changed coutless times. Why? People play songs the way they like them. I'm guilty of it on numerous occasions. A lyric doesn't scan the way I want to hear it? Fine. I've re-written entire verses of child ballads. That is the point of folk music, that it is processed through the styles and hearts of those that play it. Of neccessity the music is changed by each who picks it up and plays it? Audience reaction? Of course! even in a amateur setting, you pitch your songs to those who are listening. I wouldn't play bluegrass at an irish session, or vice versa, but there are plenty of songs that have versions in each genre. why? Because people changed them to suit their style. Folk is a dynamic process, and the music is inherently corrupt. That's why it's not classical, with all of the notes, dynamics, and playing style written down so that everyone can play the same piece the same way.

I've got more to rant about, but i think I'll let it slide for now, I'm supposedly at work here. (Nobody's ever written a Tech-Writer Chantey so far as I can tell.)

-MudWeasel

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Larry124
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:50 PM

The Old Coot Lament:

Used to be, there was city music and country music. The country music was folk.

The Revival added city music and "community/movement" (whatever), to folk.

Nowadays just about anyone can write a song. And does. And performs it publicly. And records it. And no one else ever plays a cover version.

The guys in the coffeehouse audience wish they could play that way, or maybe just get laid. The gals in the audience wish they could play that way, or maybe at least be able to say that they didn't go out and view a Bruce Willis movie.

There's still a little community though. It's in forums like this one, warts and all. I'm glad.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Ferrara
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM

To the songwriters amongst us:

There are songs and songs. If you are writing/making up songs that have the style and "feel" of any form of traditional music, I don't think most people would have a quarrel with your calling yourself a folk musician.

Craig Johnson, of Double Decker String Band, has written some of the finest songs around, as far as Bill and I are concerned. That's because they are memorable, authentic sounding and heartfelt, very singable (by more people than just Craig!) and evoke wonderful images of traditional activities and themes. These are what Mary Cliff calls "Music In The Tradition."

There's another category of singer-songwriters, though. These are the people who make up long, rambling, relatively tuneless and complex songs about the lint in their navels; sing their diaries; or as one friend puts it, about "the People-ness of People." Peace, love, angst and brown rice are fine in their place but they often tend to lead to a sameness in the music.

This type of musician is NOT writing songs "in the tradition." Songs that are too hard to comprehend and remember, or that don't have universal appeal, have seldom gotten into the tradition unless first, they were written down; and second, they were pretty spectacular.

So, my point is: on the one hand, I feel that many singer/songwriters can genuinely be considered folk musicians. On the other hand, I don't think some "folk" singer-songwriters are writing music that has much in common with what we know as folk.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:18 PM

You still have people singing songs in coffee-houses in the States? Of course I suppose you maybe don't have the Public Entertainment Licence problem that'd make that illegal in coffee-houses in England. Or tea-rooms for that matter.

Just back from a trip to Italy where I learned that the Italian for Fire is "Fuoca". I think I'm going to talk about "Fuoca Music" in future instead.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:06 PM

Ferrara,

I am not at all sure about this:

"That's because they are memorable, authentic sounding and heartfelt, very singable (by more people than just Craig!) and evoke wonderful images of traditional activities and themes. These are what Mary Cliff calls "Music In The Tradition."

I think that none of this qualifies it as folk music, or traditional music, even if it is very good music, and very enjoyable music--In order to be really traditional, it has to be a part of the tradition, and not just sound like what is thought of as part of the tradition.

As to the "folksong" deal, well, it has to be accepted by the "folk"--there is another thread, , which is "What did you sing as a kid?" and these songs are really much more folksongs than about anything else, and they are neither heartfelt or any of those "wonderful" things that you talk about--they are memorable, though--

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM

Ferrara, (Good to see you back here.)

Great post !!!

Art

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: musicmick
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 03:58 AM

I think that singer/songwriters should be called what they are, poets with guitars. This whole flood of s/s's is a reaction to Dylan. When he became successful, millions of equaly unattractive non-singers grabbed flattop Gibsons and started grunting, baring their souls and waiting for lightning to strike them too.

Real singer/songwriters dont call themselves folksingers. Jobim, Brel, Lehrer,Matt Dennis, Carol King,Jimmy Webb are called songwriters because they write real songs, finely crafted songs. Mac Davis and Willie Nelson dont have the need or the desire to cloak their work as "folk". Wasn't Hoagie Carmichael a singer/songwriter? You bet he was. We just dont call him a s/s because his songs were commercialy successful and well written. Come to think of it, I never heard Lennon or Mc Cartney called singer/songwriters either. Do I detect a pattern?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: SeanM
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:35 AM

Au contraire, MudWeasel!

The White Collar Holler

Written by Nigel Russel, made widely known (arguably) by Stan Rogers.

THERE is your tech shanty!

M

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:03 AM

As a great generalisation I've always felt that the songwriters who tell stories that illuminate or explain our lives, work, community etc are in a direct line from the songs of the past that we call folk music. The songwriters who sing about their own inner angst and relationship problems aren't.

"ANON" There's no name on the stone I sleep under today
There's no book that can tell of my time
But you know me so well when you sing roundelay
For you're singing my tune and my rhyme
I am "Anon", you know me that way
I had sometning to say about life in my day
So I made a song, and somewhere the sound of it
Goes round and round, to be lost and then found
And that it is the way that life is
That is the way it is with songs

It was in the alehouse I would sing with the rest
Then I made up a tune of my own
And a full harvest moon put the words in my head
As I trudged 'cross the fields to my home
When I sang it next day, my friends asked me how
Did I find my own song in the blade of my plough
So I asked in return how the stonemason saw
a sweet face in the stone on the old quarry floor
They asked "Is that the way that it is?"
I said "That is the way it is for me."

So they learned every word and they sang every note
'Till my song was a work of renown
And within a six month I heard boys from the school
Whistling my tune in the town
And I smiled when I heard what came out of the sky
Coming now from a child as he quickly ran by
Would it pass from that child when as father he'd sing
To a child of his own? Who'd believe such a thing?
But that is the way that life is
That is the way it is with time

It was twenty years gone when our Parson came home
From a journey he'd made far away
He shook my hand hard, said the Inn where he'd stayed And he'd listened with joy as one, with a bow,
Sang the song that I'd found in the blade of my plough
So he told them my name, but they said that my song
Was as old as the hills, and our Parson was wrong
I asked "Is that the way that it is?"
He said "That is the way it is, my son."

So I planted and ploughed'till my bones bowed and bent
I made up no more verses to sing
And it seemed that my life had been wasted and spent
On the curses my hard days would bring
Soon Death came to call with a voice that cried "Now!"
And the song that I'd found in the blade of my plough
Leapt from my heart as I journeyed on
And I knew it would live, even though I was gone
And that is the way that life is

There's no names on the stones we sleep under today
There's no books that can tell of our times
But you know us so well when you sing roundelay
For you're singing our tunes and our rhymes We had something to say about life in our day
So we made our songs, and somewhere the sound of them
Goes round and round, to be lost and then found
And that is the way that life is
That is the way it is with songs

Harvey Andrews. Haska Music. 2000

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:16 AM

I'll crack this typing lark one day! Amended lyric follows; ANON
"There's no name on the stone I sleep under today
There's no book that can tell of my time
But you know me so well when you sing roundelay
For you're singing my tune and my rhyme
I am "Anon", you know me that way
I had something to say about life in my day
So I made a song, and somewhere the sound of it
Goes round and round, to be lost and then found
And that it is the way that life is
That is the way it is with songs

It was in the alehouse I would sing with the rest
Then I made up a tune of my own
And a full harvest moon put the words in my head
As I trudged 'cross the fields to my home
When I sang it next day, my friends asked me how
Did I find my own song in the blade of my plough
So I asked in return how the stonemason saw
a sweet face in the stone on the old quarry floor
They asked "Is that the way that it is?"
I said "That is the way it is for me."

So they learned every word and they sang every note
'Till my song was a work of renown
And within a six month I heard boys from the school
Whistling my tune in the town
And I smiled when I heard what came out of the sky
Coming now from a child as he quickly ran by
Would it pass from that child when as father he'd sing
To a child of his own? Who'd believe such a thing?
But that is the way that life is
That is the way it is with time

It was twenty years gone when our Parson came home
From a journey he'd made far away
He shook my hand hard, said the Inn where he'd stayed
Had some men who sang there every day
And he'd listened with joy as one, with a bow,
Sang the song that I'd found in the blade of my plough
So he told them my name, but they said that my song
Was as old as the hills, and our Parson was wrong
I asked "Is that the way that it is?"
He said "That is the way it is, my son."

So I planted and ploughed'till my bones bowed and bent
I made up no more verses to sing
And it seemed that my life had been wasted and spent
On the curses my hard days would bring
Soon Death came to call with a voice that cried "Now!"
And the song that I'd found in the blade of my plough
Leapt from my heart as I journeyed on
And I knew it would live, even though I was gone
And that is the way that life is
That is the way it is for us all

There's no names on the stones we sleep under today
There's no books that can tell of our times
But you know us so well when you sing roundelay
For you're singing our tunes and our rhymes
We are "Anon". you know us that way
We had something to say about life in our day
So we made our songs, and somewhere the sound of them
Goes round and round, to be lost and then found
And that is the way that life is
That is the way it is with songs

Harvey Andrews. Haska Music. 2000

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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:48 AM

Great song there from Harvey there!

I'm not sure that it is possible to draw a clear line between a song that tells a story that illuminates or explains our lives, and one that talks about the troubles in the life of the person making the song. That could imply that in order to make a song about trouble, and to do it in a way that was in the tradition, you couldn't have experienced it yourself, and that is clearly absurd.

As a rule of thumb, I think that the traditional way to respond to public troubles has been to produce new songs, but when it comes to finding ways of dealing with personal troubles the tendency has been more to rework existing songs and reassemble fragments of songs.

But when it comes to rules of thumb I'm all fingers. The crucial thing with any song is, is it a good song, and is the singer singing it in a way that does it justice. And of course there is no reason or why anybody should feel that they should only sing or listen to "folk songs". There are plenty of great songs that aren't "folk songs"

For example, Harvey's song there.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: LR Mole
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:19 AM

"Oh, let me tell you of the story of a co-ed named Courtney
Seemed to walk down the hall alone
Was she memorizin'Poe? She was not musin',no, she
Wouldn't get off the cellular phone!
And will they ever shut up, no, they'll never shut up... (etc.)
(new folk song by the Serfston Trio)

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM

I like old music, old tradtionals, all that stuff, and, as we all do, I take from where I like, what I like--I am always curious as to where something has come from and how it got to be the way it is, and am always very interested in the characteristic elements of the musical genre--

However, I am sick to death of the "Traditional Music Police" mentality that seeks to include or exclude based on how closely someone corresponds to a label--and I am sick to death of people who try to pass themselves off as "Folkier than thou art", and I believe that they do nothing but harm to everybody who plays and listens to the music--

Case in point are the people who are critical of the "Oh, Brother Where Art Thou" soundtrack because the contemporary recordings by commercial artists are not "authentic"-- rather than appreciating, and trying to build, on what it has done to promote this kind of music, the every dwindling numbers of "traditional music" people are complaining about it--

Kids are hearing this music in unbelievable numbers--and when the listen to music, they want to play it, listen to more, learn more, write their own, and I am very excited about that prospect--What I am afraid of is that when these kids play"Man of Constant Sorrow" on their electric guitars, down at the Mall, one of the "Traditional Music Police" is going to collar them afterwards and give them Hell--

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:55 PM

They let people play guitars down at the Mall in your country M.Ted? If we could dump the Public Entertainment Licence requirementsw here in England, I'd happily put up with any number of Traditional Music Police.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:14 PM

They have entertainment of all kinds at the Malls--if you remember "Tiffany" she became a teen pop star overnight, by playing at malls--

As to the Public Entertainment lisense business--in the states, each state regulates certain aspects of the establishements that serve alcohol, but for the most part, lisensing and regulation fall completely under the jurisdiction of local authorities. For a lurid and titillating example: In New Jersey bars, Go-Go dancers in a must wear a bra, wheraeas across the river in Pennsylvania, the breasts may be completely exposed, as long as pasties are worn to cover the nipples. However, if no alcohol is served, the state has no authority, and performers may be completely nude, if it is permitted by city, county, or town authorities. I presumably, this extends to Morris Dancing, as well.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM

if you started a thread about "nouvelle cusine" or "art deco" or "classic autos" you would get many similar arguments. (or even 'antiques', though there are certain standards adopted there,)

The thing is, as I keep saying, a name or category needs to MEAN something. If it can be co-opted by anyone who wants a handy rack to hang his hat on, it soon means nothing...as has happened with 'folk'. We CANNOT ever have a precise, unchanging 'definition'.....but we sure can be aware when gratuitious changes are made to a song, or when a style is changed until earlier perfomers would barely recognize it.(This does automatically not make it 'bad',just different)

I still maintain that there is a need to have a way to describe those songs & music styles that developed before, or away from...or in spite of, the music 'industry'....recognizing that there will ALWAYS be gray areas. There will, though, ALWAYS be stuff that seems to 'mostly' partake of the concepts that created the idea of folk/trad in the first place.

If you are not willing to have categories that mean something, just imagine a radio station that advertises it plays 'music'...and expects it's listeners to absorb Druid Madrigals, Bob Dylan, Uncle Dave Macon, Yma Sumac, Yanni and Bing Crosby as a mix!

You can argue philosophy all day, but I want to FIND my favorites. Having something I DON'T like mis-labeled is a durn nuisance......

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:16 PM

Just curious... I have no problem finding things in the folk bin at music stores that aren't traditional. There aren't any folk bins... an elastic definition has no impact on my shopping... I buy my CDs at folk festivals, or over the Internet..

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:24 PM

Nude Morris Dancing...The mind boggles.

Though actually they did have that at a Late Night Extra at a Folk Festival a few years ago. Well, nearly naked. There were a few balloons about. Not a pretty sight. Definitely not in The Tradition.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: curmudgeon
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:34 PM

i had hoped to get into this thread sooner. Having just waded through the whole thing, I should rather offer some random thoughts rather than resopnd to any previous posts..
.
i entered the world of folksong performance during the Great Folk scare of the '60s. There were a lot of fine folksingers out there singing traditional songs. once in a while, they'd sing a "new" song that took their fancy. Some of these caught on, some didn't..
.
Some of them wrote their own songs as well,. both good and bad. sometimes the good ones were forgoten but the bad lived on, for a while..
.
As being a folksinger came to be seen as a viable career (big bucks and babes) more youngsters took a stab at it..
.
When I was cook, stickman,manager, auditioner at at coffee house in those times, I often asked the youngsters what kind of songs they did and was met with such responses as "I do Joanie's songs," or "We do Peter Paul and mary." I knew then that the age of folksong popularity was coming to an end..
.
"Never ascribe to malice that which can be more easily explained by stupidity.".
.
This, in my opinion sums up the distinction between singer/songwriters and folksingers. It is, to a large extent the fault of the promoters, record producers and radio "personalities.".,none of whom have the slightest clue as to what constitutes folk music.
.
We have here a weekly "Folk Show" the host of which wouldn't recognise a traditional song if it bit her on the *. We also have another "Folk Show" which presents a wonderful panoply of tradtional songs intermingled with a few conteporary offerings. This is what its all about..
.
Essentially, iy all has to mixed together. That which is taken up by the traditional purveyors of folk song and/or the "people," will be the folksongs of the future. Sadly though, there;s an awful lot of crap that will make it through. (I still cannot abide the singing of what must be the most universal "folksong," Happy Birthday).
.
I fear that I'm beginning to ramble. i might just come back when I've had more sleep..
.
Curmudgeonly yours -- Tom

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:43 PM

Just a comment... I ran a folk concert series booking people who sang traditional folk music for 27 years. After I stopped, a "big time" entrepreneur started offering a folk concert series in my town. I was invited to a meeting of folk presenters, and we were asked to introduce ourselves and give a little of our background. I said that I had run a folk concert series for 27 years, presenting traditional folk music, and that I'd be happy to do whatever I could to help any other series. The guy who runs the "folk" concert series turned to me in response and said, "I hate traditional folk music." I am reminded of a comment made by Peter LaFarge one night at the now defunct Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village. He said, start writing songs. Nobody is going to be interested in anyone who doesn't write songs anymore. Prophetic.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: toadfrog
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:56 PM

As a prize example of what folk music can be I suggest anyone who hasn't hear it listen to Roscoe Holcomb's "Little Bessie," which was on the film and record, The High Lonesome Sound (Folkways FA 2368, 1965) and probably on a Smithsonian CD today.

John Cohen writes in the liner notes:

"During the singing Roscoe becamd very involved with the song, so much so that his mood changed, and he didn't feel like singing at all for several days afterward." Not exactly a trouper. Could never have made it on the stage that way. Couldn't have competed with Bob Dylan. But being "involved with the song" is one of the things that makes folk music worth while.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM

Tom (Curmudgeon),

Good post. True points there. Having been there myself I think, shows me the truth of it. I guess I'm here too much though-----I see a post by a naive but nice person and I just cannot help myself; I leap in a thread and come on too strong (probably) for my own good or the good of the points I want to make. Just want to grab 'em and say, "Please, look to the real thing. There is so very much that is there. As a folksinger, you have the luxury of being a time traveler. Any truck driver can go from here to there---but we can go any place and any time."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: 53
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:01 PM

pete seeger is dead and gone, and there's nothing wrong with using mics, and pickups.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:03 PM

musicmic - A number of the songwriters you regard as "real songwriters" seem to have greatly admired Dylan's work (John Lennon and George Harrison sure did) and some (or most) of them have covered his songs from time to time, so where does that leave your point?

Then there are those hosts of "equally unattractive non-singers grunting and baring their souls"...like Jackson Browne? Oh yeah, for sure, he can't sing! :-) A classic example of both singer-songwriter and Dylan devotee, baring his soul, but definitely not grunting.

But are they "folksingers"? Does it matter?

Not that there weren't loads of lousy Dylan-wannabe's in the wings...there certainly were...but that is no reflection on the quality of what Dylan himself has accomplished.

- LH

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:34 AM

Some of my favorite Folksinger/songwriters... Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Leadbelly, Dave Van Ronk, and yes, my dear, dear friend, Art Thieme. Why aren't they called Folksinger/songwriters?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: GUEST,swoopy
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM

Not all s/s are ever going to be labelled folksingers e.g Randy newman, Noel coward,or Mick Jagger The ones that get labelled do so because their songs SOUND LIKE FOLKSONGS. This is particularly likely if you use a guitar. Also if you use the same old chords, song stucture, or singing styles. So if it really matters to you (why should it?)either pillage alternative musical traditions or invent your own personal genre go for it (ps reminds me of the early Dylan lyric "You sound like a hillbilly We only want folk singers here")

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 03:51 PM

I would have thrown my chair at the bastard that said"I hate traditional music", but only after giving him a piece of my mind. Not that it would have made much difference. Just curious, does the :Big Time" promoter still do "folk" concerts in your town, or has he moved on to bigger and better things?