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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: theleveller Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:54 AM "Are you still in the area; would you be able to find information on how many lives really were lost in which storm?" Hi Mysha. I still live in the East Riding, though not actually on the coast. The lifeboat records say that in the 1871 storm 30 vessels and 70 (three score and ten) lives were lost. That's probably why I put two and two together and got five. I'll try to find out how many were lost in 1899 as I agree this probably sounds more like the storm alluded to. Also, when I can get over to Flamborough, I'll have a look in the graveyard and see if that gives any indication of lives lost there. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Waddon Pete Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:09 AM Have a look at www.folkinfo.org and you will find details under the song title that will help. Best wishes, Peter |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: theleveller Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:36 AM Pete, the extract from the Hull Times is particularly interesting. What is strange is that I have done a quick search in the histories of the lifeboat stations at Scarborough, Flamborough, Bridlington, Spurn and Grimsby and can find no reference to a major incident in 1899. The Great Storm of 1871 is covered in detail and 43 of the bodies were buried in Flamborough churchyard: (http://www.sprobson.f2s.com/t1871.html). In fact, I can't find any refernce at all to a storm in 1899 in the North Sea. The answer may be that the storm occurred far out at sea, out of range of the lifeboats. Herring craft and trawlers would easily work this far out but how far would fishing smacks go - they usually worked much closer to shore? If my assumtion is correct then 'I think I see them yet again as they leave the land behind' couldn't be true. I would think that the statement that 'many hundreds more were drowned' is also a huge exaggeration. However, if it was written to raise funds, a little elaboration wouldn't harm - or maybe it was just poetic licence. Interesting stuff! |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Mysha Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:28 PM Hi, Wolfgang and Bert: 1811 wasn't all that dangerous a storm, I think: the direct cause of the diaster was a stubborn captain insisting in bringing his damaged vessel home despite the bad weather, resulting in the loss of nearly hands on board both his ship and the ship towing it, as well as of the ships themselves. Peter: Thanks for the link, but as as far as I can see, it's the same information that is on Mudcat too, in the links above, and in some cases it's even a direct quote. theleveller: I think you may have more success looking for "1889", rather than "1899". But having thought it over: I think the three score and ten of 1871 were the lives lost all along the coast and at sea. Three Score And Ten speaks of three score and ten lost for Grimsby alone. One of the reasons the Great Gale of 1871 was documented better might have been the loss of a lifeboat crew - the everpresent dread in any harbour community that those who go out to save the lives of others may lose their own instead. But you're right: The Great Gale ran the ships ashore, which is much more impressive than all these smallcraft battling throught the night unseen. Smacks, fishing smacks, trawled as well. They were in fact known to come trawling on the Lowlands coasts, as the sandy sea bed here was easier on the nets. I don't know if those came from as far away as Hull, but it does suggest they could well have left the land behind. I don't know about the "many hundreds". I guess it would depend on the number of harbours on the coast. Of course, Grimsby need not have been the place that was hit hardest - it's not like there was an empty chair in every home, after all - it just happened to be the writers home town. Mysha |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Waddon Pete Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:11 PM My apologies if this turns up twice! I had it all typed out...pressed the button and it vanished...just like that! Ho hum.... However....the plot thickens...in the Eyemouth museum there is a large tapestry commemorating the loss of life in the 1881 fishing disaster when 189 local fishermen lost their lives. That happened in October! Grimsby was the largest fishing port in the world at one point in its history so the "hundreds more were drowned" line, for fatalities along the rest of the coast, probably isn't too far off the mark. In fishing communities, every disaster hits hard...whether it be one boat or many. Best wishes, Peter |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Mysha Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM Hi, My apology for my choice of words. Since we were talking about the "hundreds", I meant to express that, though three score and ten is an enormous loss, Grimsby was quite a large fishery port. The reason for my choice of words was that I'd been reading up on the Moddergat loss. I seem to recall a snippet about 1889 not being a good year for England. Not only was an Austrian baby born that would set the world aflame in the next century, but England was hit by a mandrowner twice, once in February and once in October. So an alternative explanation might be that the writers of the added parts associated it with the wrong gale of that year. Mysha |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: theleveller Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:29 AM Mysha Of course, I meant "1889". Dohhhh! With regard to the "many hundreds" debate, I still think this is an exaggeration. A disaster of that magnitude would have made national news. The main fishing ports along the coast between Scarborough and Grimsby are: Scarborough, Filey, Flamborough, Bridlington, (Hornsea and Withernsea to a lesser extent), Hull, Cleethorpes and Grimsby. There's no record of massive fatalities along the Yorkshire coast – certainly not to the extent of the 1871 storm. Flamborough was a particularly tight-knit fishing community, and certainly until a few years ago, when the Great Storm was referred to, it was 1871. The point I'm making is that I doubt the scale of fatalities that occurred in Grmsby would have been repeated all along the coast. The loss of seventy from one port is a huge disaster, and this might have been exaggerated even further in the belief that other ports had suffered to the same extent. Just to change the subject slightly, I'd always been under the belief that a huge number of whaling ships were lost from Hull in the 1830s – the height of the industry there – whereas, in fact, the number actually lost was 8.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:35 PM I dug out the words from DT to print /give to a friend - but I can't ever recall one of the verses which appears there, and the song, as written, seems skew-whiff. Is this a senior moment on my part ?? I feel the verses are mixed-up and the one verse doesn't belong to the original version - the one about the "captain" ??. Also the verses in the context of the song / story , seem mixed up . Am I just totally mistaken ? Cheers Betsy |
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Subject: RE: Three Score and Ten From: Dead Horse Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:47 PM See above for previous thread. The point is (I think) not to rely on any one version as gospel. The folk process has been at work :-) |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: breezy Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:05 AM In some cases its sung 'Went out to fight that bitter night and battle with the swell' Ray Delf of Padstow may be able to throw some light upon the author of the 3rd vrse which begins with 'Methinks I see them yet again |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:34 PM Brian Dawson has done a lot of extra research on this and has come up with some astounding facts. The following is off the top of my head as he told me about it about 18 months ago. During WWI the Delft family moved from Grimsby to Lowestoft and changed their name to something more English-sounding, because of their perceived or a real threat from locals at their German-sounding name (actually Dutch). Some time soon after this Wm Delft's grandson joined the Lowestoft Fishermen's Choir and took his grandfather's song and altered it so the choir could sing it, adding in the chorus. Fishermen from different towns and indeed their choirs naturally meet up with each other and so a jump from Lowestoft to Filey is not a great one in terms of passing on sea songs. Brian actually got this information from one of the family still alive in the Lowestoft area. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:40 PM By the way nearly half of the three score and ten were from Hull. Their gravestone/memorial is in one of the Hull cemeteries and Geoff Lawes who frequently posts here has taken photos. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Rozza Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:44 AM It's an interesting story about the Delf's family move to Lowestoft, but there are some problems with it. William Delf was drowned at 3 o'clock in the morning on the 5th January 1894, whilst engaged as second hand on the trawler "Andrew Marvell" in the North Sea. None of the census returns record that he and his wife Lavinia had any children. On crew records he gives his place of birth as either Beccles or Yarmouth. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,SteveG Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:58 PM Ruairidh, Is it certain this is the same William Delf(t)? We need to check the story with Brian if so. It may not have been grandson. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Rozza Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:42 AM I have lengthy crew records for William Delf as well as Directory entries, and copies of several of his broadsides. He is the only William Delf (no Delft) sailing out of Grimsby during the period. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: gnomad Date: 03 Nov 11 - 06:43 AM On the up/down direction question, a snippet gleaned from a colleague a few weeks ago. He was an east coast fisherman (UK) until a few years ago and we now run pleasure trips out of the same port. I'm writing from memory here, so it isn't a direct quote, but it is certainly the sense of what he was saying. The Tyne and Scotland was always 'down', and the Humber or London way was always 'up'. It sounds wrong if you look at a map, but that's what we said, I don't know why. I have since confirmed it with another (older) colleague who has spent some 60 years among the small craft up and down the east and south coasts. He too had no explanation, but confirmed the usage as being the same at least as far as the Thames. Of course these are 20th century references, but it is hard to envisage such customs suddenly having turned 180 degrees without it being noticed. Whoever added the chorus appears to have been familiar with local custom. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,Don Wise Date: 03 Nov 11 - 11:12 AM Sounds like a parallel to the railway usage:- UP to/DOWN from London, irrespective of north/south/east/west. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,SteveG Date: 03 Nov 11 - 02:32 PM My own take on this is that the only thing that dictates an 'up' and 'down' to seamen in this context would be determined by charts which would have been a luxury to coastal small craft seamen until the 20th century. Also these coastal men spent as much time on estuaries and rivers where 'up' and 'down' is governed not by chart direction but by the river outflow. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,DonMeixner Date: 03 Nov 11 - 03:19 PM In central New York the up and down of things along the river had to do with the direction of the current. With the current was down, against the current was up. I apologize if I am going over covered ground. Down the Humber ....bound.... for the sea. Downstream. Don |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,Al Kicks Date: 11 Apr 12 - 11:09 AM My interest in Three Score & Ten stems from my recent family research. It appears that my great grandfather, Charles, and his brother, George (only 14 years old),left the Eastend of London in the autumn of 1867 to sign on as fishing apprentices in Grimsby. My Great Grandfather survived his first trip to the North Sea in November, however, George sailed at the end of November on the fishing trawler Increase. On the 1st December, it along with eleven other vessels from Grimsby and several from Hull, were lost in an horrendous storm. The only reference to this massive loss appears to be in the Ships Lost records for Grimsby to be found at - http://www.nelincs.gov.uk/resident/libraries-and-archives/archives--local-and-family-history/free-indexes-topic-guides/ I feel this event must have survived in the "Folk Memory" at the time and probably sowed the seed for the later poem and Broadside. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Apr 12 - 12:04 PM And with that last post from the Guest above, this thread reached three score and ten......now plus one. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Leadfingers Date: 11 Apr 12 - 01:07 PM And the tune and strucure were borrowed by my friend Kathy . who did an excellnt rewrite for MY three score and tent Birthday |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:05 PM Al Kicks, Sorry to disillusion you but all of Delf's disaster poems were definitely directly related to the events they describe in the 1880s. There is no sign of a rewrite of earlier material, the style of writing maybe. When I have time I'll check my records. There is a good chance that soe wrote a poem about the disaster you describe. Some were written in Hull. I have some from the 1870s. BTW the losses will definitely be recorded in the 3 local papers which are available for perusal in the Hull History Centre. Unfortunately I'm snowed under at the moment with projects otherwise I'd have checked for you. |
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