English Folk: Harmony Singing

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:38 AM

Mairead Ni Mhaoinaigh of Altan, on the paucity of women's songs making it into the (male determined) folk music canon in Ireland:

"Apparently the women weren't given pens."

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Annie144
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 08:13 AM

Can I refresh this one? It was an interesting read and then it disappeared. It's taken me ages to find it again.

A.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Annie144
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 04:29 PM

What I wanted to ask was have people heard Cockersdale? Which category does their harmony singing fall into? Calculated or improvised? I saw them last year [they're on Fellside records]. They're very good.

A.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 03:53 AM

Cockersdale are well rehearsed to seem casual and traditional. Carrying on from the standards set by their founder (no longer with us) Keith Marsden, many of whose songs are often mistaken for traditional songs.Great songs and harmonies but certainly Choreographed.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 01:48 PM

Harmony groups that are recording and going out and doing bookings generally rehearse their harmonies if only to avoid having 2 members of the group sing the same note at the same time. Members of harmony groups who just happen to be joining in choruses of songs sung by other people in informal sessions will often be improvising. I have heard one group singing where the tune got shared out between members - in fact trying to spot the tune in some groups' songs, like Coope, Boyes and Simpson, can sometimes be a challenge.

Kitty

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: alanww
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 03:01 PM

Very true, Kitty. If you don't know it well already, sometimes its almost impossible to spot the tune!

Singing in sweet harmony
Alan

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 05:11 PM

I wan't saying that rehearsed harmony was bad,just answering Annie's question.All bands getting paid should rehearse, but they don't all arrange the harmonies.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 05:18 PM

Ned - I thought that was what I said??????

Kitty

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 07:16 PM

Sorry Kitty- what I was trying to say is that a group like, say the Wilsons is a lot different from one like Artisan.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,eliza
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 08:29 AM

Mike Waterson always says,"You sing the tune until you can't anymore.Then you sing a harmony". In the Watersons' case it was certainly that the girls set the pitch of the melody,so the boys had to stretch a bit to get round it. That's where that wonderful falsetto came from!!

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 08:41 AM

Just to mention that when I was in Co.Mayo a couple of years ago i didn't half get some funny looks when I did as I usually do which is launch straight into a harmony when the chorus came. It just isn't done over there !!!

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 10:04 AM

I've done a couple of Bulgarian folk singing workshops and the woman who runs them explained that singing folk songs and especially in harmony (or the harmonies that the average punter used ) supressed when the orthodox christian church became promonent. This would suggest that in eastern europe, at least, harmony singing was commonplace quite a long time ago. They tend to sing in thirds, with the emphasis on the two thirds under the melody, quite often with the odd drone thrown in. Bulgaria being where it is, their tradition also has quite a middle eastern sound at times with some solo songs that wouldn't sound out of place in the arab states.

My point being, I find it hard to beleive that "traditional songs" were never sung in harmony. It seems to be an awfully widespread practise if such was the case.Look at 'rounds', although the effect is produced by staggering the melody the effect is a harmony! I do believe that there are distinct styles of songs, some which obviously lend themselves to large amounts of harmonies and others that sound best unacompanied.

Also, historically, instruments were prohibitively expensive for many people. So a voice would be the obvious instrument for most people to play.

People who enjoy singing, to a certain extent, can't help but improvise around a melody, if only to see what it sounds like!

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,English Jon
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 10:22 AM

Going back to Noreen's comment about Irish songs performed in unison, It is interesting to note than when there was a decline in fiddle playing in Sligo, people started "lilting" the old tunes - daidle-eedle-iddle-i-eedle etc.. Hence "diddly diddly" as a term for Irish session tunes. Now, the men and women both sung the tune but in Unison, the men singing one octave lower, obviously. As the fiddle started to re-emerge, the new generation of sligo players started playing in octaves. So, lets assume that Octave unison is the most basic form of harmony, the next most basic is singing in natural fifths - see young tradition's version of Lyke wake dirge, or Cutty Wren. Slightly more advanced is unison at the third - Waterson's soul-cake song uses paralell thirds and fifths - very ancient it sounds too.

Another early harmonic practice is to sing tunes against a burden, or drone, obviously, this creates a harmonic anchor point, so if you have a melody harmonised at the fifth, you can effectively be in two modes at once, the drone is used to give preference to one or the other.

This takes us, in classical harmony terms, up to about 1100 A.D. So I think it's pretty fair to say that folk harmony is not a new idea.

EJ

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 12:21 PM

The Oldest written down English secular song is "Summer is a Cummin in" from the 13th Century it is actually a round. So the harmony is generated by the staggered repetion of the same line, plus in this case a bass part. Most of the early "Secular" music was not written down but I doubt that this was the only song of the time with "English Harmony" in it. Just a thought, JohnB.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: nutty
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 12:36 PM

Harmony singing is very different in families ... eg The Coppers , the Watersons , the Wilsons where there is already a natural blend of voices to that which is contrived (even though well rehearsed).
This natural blend is most evident in African music where the harmonies (of tribal music/chants) are very subtle and often quite irregular.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Abuwood
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 03:07 PM

Interesting thread! I like singing harmony, I think I hit 3rds and 5ths, but Hilary Spencer said free harmony was filling in the spaces so sometimes I aim for the notes above or below to weave around the tune - don't know what it sounds like to you lot but we like it! Al & Steve& John & Chris

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Nemesis
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 06:53 PM

It's a bit further up the threads now but can anyone advise further about Dave Webber and Anni Fentiman and workshops they might be running? I sing in a 3-part trio 1 tune singer (tenor), 1 alto, 1 soprano (both doing harmonies usually 3rds and 5ths (I think :) around the tune - yes, 'fraid we do do harmonies during the chorus :)

We have taken inspiration from Swan Arcade, the Watersons, Young Tradition, etc (still struggling with Coope, Boyes and Simpson - who are playing at the Royal, Lewes, Sussex on March 7th) but oddly enough although we are using a reasonably strict almost choral/classical approach to our arrangements were uninspired by Artisan - who (apparently) use the same technical approach( Good songs and Hilary Spencer is a personal singing hero of mine though - only one lung! What a singer!) which come across to me as very mannered. Ditto - Cockersdale whom I saw recently (altho' pleading exhaustion on this particular night - which doesn't always make for unambivalent listening) I thought that aside from a couple of songs they were just plain boring - although it is very interesting listening to varieties of harmony singing: I have reappraised my intial shock-horror listening to the Watersons and realised they do some great stuff albeit in a 'raw' fashion. Personal taste presumably? (Although I don't have sufficient technical knowledge to analyse what it is that might be appealing/unappealing about different groups - as a beginner at this game I find appeal (personally) is a lot to do with drive and timing (oh, and song message)

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: BretonCap
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:33 AM

Whilst I can hold the main tune when I sing I have all sorts of problems trying to sing harmont lines.

The best I can manage (and I quote Johnny Collins) is to find the note and then wobble off it until it sounds pretty.

Sorry I couldn't resist the urge to put in my two pennyworth

Dave

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 12:19 PM

Hey Hille, my group has the same line up, tenor (me) Alto and Soprano. We go with the just rip right into it and make up your own harmony line approach. It seems to sometimes work easily and other times not. Finest Kind, are a Canadian group who do some good stuff (2 Guys 1 Girl) worth a listen anyhow. JohnB

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 03:04 PM

Hille

I forwarded this thread to Dave and Anni, and got a reply explaining that they only run harmony workshops when they are booked by festivals to do so.

Sarah Morgan runs harmony workshops too, at Whitby Festival and others.

Kitty