Origins: When Jones's Ale was New

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:18 AM

Phil,

it seems like a brilliant example of the living tradition - a great song to which people keep adding bits. Much enjoyed at the Beech last time. It seems to have a hell of a note range, I always find myself running out of notes around Jones's in the chorus then breath a bit further on. I think we need more of these grand chorus songs at the Beech - I seem to remember you "Martin said to his man" nearly took the roof off at the first Singaround.

I cannot let this thread go without mentioning one of the best singers clubs ever - Jones's Ale in Chester -from around 1968 to around mid 1980s I think, before evolving in to Edgar's Eight and other Singers Clubs to this day?

Started by Trevor (?), Dave Jenkins, Mike Jenkins and others great, great club, good singers, good nights of song.

Anybody else remember?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:49 AM

Trevor Cooper

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:15 AM

Trevor Cooper - that rings a bell. Did you know them all Mr Happy?

I seem to remember Trevor went to Anglsey to run a Golf Course. Does that sound right?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:18 AM

Knew most've 'em - remnants at Chester FF in good voice on Monday night just gone!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 05:13 PM

Well, actually, specifically I'm looking for A.L. Lloyd's words to "When Johnson's Ale Was New" from the 1956 Riverside LP "English Drinking Songs"...which is where Tom (Curmudgeon) learned it.

I've been learning a lot of Tom's songs to carry them on in our circle at least. Tom got most of his early (1960s-1970s) repertoire from LPs of Bert Lloyd and Ewan MacColl -- when Tom had expressed an interest in English folk music his father went out and bought him two albums, Lloyd's and MacColl's, and Tom was off and running...

I'm sure I have the LP in our collection, but my turntable is buried. I'm not sure if I have a tape of Tom singing it, but I still hear his voice loudly in my memory -- just not accurately enough to wrap my brain around all the lyrics. The thing is, Tom really hadn't sung it often in the past ten or fifteen years or so before he lost his voice to vocal cord cancer. I just know that none of the lyrics I've found in the DT or googled are what Tom sang.

Can anyone help me out?

Linn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:51 AM

Anyone got the chords for playing this?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Reinhard
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:49 AM

Linn, these are A.L. Lloyd's words from English Drinking Songs:

There were six jolly tradesmen come ramblin over the hill.
Come ramblin over the hill, my boys, for they were a cheerful crew.
They all sat down for to be merry;
They called for a bottle of wine or sherry.
"You're welcome over the hills," says Nelly,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The first come in was a soldier and no captain ever looked bolder.
His gun on his right shoulder, his good broad-sword he drew.
He said he'd fight with all his might
Before old England should be drunk dry.
And so they spent a rowdy night
When Johnson's ale was new.

The next come in was a hatter and he began to chatter.
He asked what was the matter among the jovial crew.
He dashed his hat unto the ground
And he flung the landlord off his crown.
And the company drank his health around
When Johnson's ale was new.

Then in come a jolly mason his hammer to put a face on,
No man could be more decent among the jovial crew.
He dashed his trowel against the wall
And he wished every church and steeple would fall,
So there would be work for masons all
When Johnson's ale was new.

The last come in was a ragman weary, his ragbag he did carry,
And he was a-rightly merry among the jovial crew.
While he was kissin' and squeezin' the lasses
They burned his ragbag all to ashes,
When Johnson's ale was new, my boys,
When Johnson's ale was new

The ale was always improvin' and nobody thought of movin'.
The longer they sat boozin' the greater prince they grew.
So rowdily they drunk a bill up
Until the ale had all run out,
And they asked old Johnson to give 'em a shout
When he had brewed anew.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 01:13 PM

Not quite, Reinhard. That Net version contains some gibberish lines.

Bat Goddess, I learned the song from Lloyd's album too:


There were six jolly tradesmen
Come rambling over the hill,
Come rambling over the hill, my boys,
For they were a cheerful crew.
They all set down for to be merry.
They called a bottles of wine or sherry.
"You're welcome over the hill," says Nellie,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The first come in was a soldier
And no captain ever looked bolder
His gun on his right shoulder,
His good broadsword he drew.
He said he'd fight with all his might
Before old England should be drunk dry;
And so they spent a rowdy night,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The next come in was a hatter,
And he began to chatter;
He asked what was the matter
Among the jovial crew.
He dashed his hat unto the ground,
And he flung the landlord half a crown:
And the company drank his health all round,
When Johnson's Ale was new

Then in came a jolly mason,
His hammer to put a face on.
No man could be more decent
Among the jovial crew.
He dashed his trowel against the wall,
And he wished every church and steeple might fall,
So there would be work for masons all,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The last came a ragman wary,
His ragbag he did carry,
And he was already merry
Among the jovial crew.
While he was kissing and squeezing the lasses,
They burnt his ragbag all to ashes
When Johnson's ale was new, my boys,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The ale was always improving,
And nobody thought of moving.
The longer they sat boozing,
The greater friends they grew.
So rowdily they drunk about
Until the ale it had all run out;
And they asked old Johnson to give 'em a shout,
When he had brewed anew.

Lloyd says "six," but only sings about four. Maybe a couple of stanzas were edited out for reasons of space.

I'd expect the ragman to be "weary," not "wary," but that's what ot sounds like.

My personal version has "They all got drunk as bloody jackasses," along with stanzas about a tinker and a sailor.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Musket
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM

Now then... This song takes me back.....

The version I used to sing, as learned from Fred Foster, a singer I knew from the clubs when I was a teenager, included this little nugget.

The next to come in was Zsa Zsa Gabor
She was America's finest.   actress
She was America's finest actress as she lay down on the floor.
The landlord he said "get up me dear!
Don't you know you'll get no business in here?
For every man Jack of 'em's a little bit queer.

When Jones's ale etc.



In addition, to keep in with the local Sheffield brew, we tended to sing it as Stones's Ale. (Pronounced Stornzes, in Sheffield fashion...)

Snag is, many folk clubs now, getting a roof raising harmony inducing chorus song going, it doesn't seem to do it like it used to.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 02:32 PM

Chorus singing certainly can't be relied on these days. I was in my local FC the night John Kelly did Shallow Brown as part of his set. As refrains go, it's not what you could call demanding. Me and one other person joined in. I suspect that anywhere with a stage and chairs in rows is likely to be pretty dead for chorus singing, unless the singer really works the audience (Come on, give it a try - Shallow, oh Shallow Brown...)

I love Jones's Ale, not least because I heard it for the first time at my local singaround, sung (or rather led) by a guy who'd been in the main part of the pub and wandered in. My version is, accordingly, collected from This Bloke Who Wandered In, further processed by being sung all the way home, and updated a bit after googling the next day. I only mention this because it's ended up sounding nothing like the Coppers' version, which I guess has a certain canonicity. People still join in when I do it, though - at least, in places where people do join in.

In terms of verses, personally I sing the Dyer, the Mason (interesting hints of atheism in that verse) and the Soldier, followed on a good night by the Folkie:

Now the last to come in was a folkie
With a voice so wheezy and croaky
And his singing was really in no key
All to join in that jovial crew
And he sang them a song from the days of yore
With some extra words he'd added the day before
It's the living tradition, boys, say no more...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:30 PM

Nobody has mentioned that in D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy, this is called "Joan's Ale Was New"; according to some, as a ref to the fact that Oliver Cromwell's wife's name was Joan, which seems to me probably a bit of post-hoc 'folk derivation'. But certainly, SFAICS, "Joan's Ale" could be an earlier usage for the title & lyric than the now much more familiar "Jones's".

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:42 AM

Subjective.

I'd been singing it for a year or more before I knew it was Jones's in the first place. I had only heard it as Stones's.

A the last person said, living tradition.......

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:58 AM

Joan is, of course, one of the female variants of John; as is Ian a Northern British one...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:18 AM

Too true. My Dad was called John, or Jack as he was known. I had a brother called John who sadly died before I was born, and they couldn't call me John, hence Ian.

In a similar fashion, I called our second son Sean.





Catholic family near us started calling theirs by the saints. Their John grew up stable enough but that fecking Pancake.......



With apologies to every pub bore who thought of a joke.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 07:21 AM

Tother blacsksheep. Two new verses for the 21st century (will be on forthcoming CD by Two Black Sheep and a Stallion "The Last of the Careless Men")
The next to come in was a banker
And everyone cried,"What a w_____!"
Everyone cried,"What a w_____! for to join in a jovial crew.
He said,"I'll lend you a fiver.
We said, "You're teasing."
He said, "Just give me another round of quantative easing.
And I'll show you next, who I'll be squeezing!"
When Jones'...."
The next to come in was an MP
Whose purse was surprisingly empty
Whose purse was surprisingly empty, for to join in a jovial crew.
He said,"Just give me some expenses for my duck house, moat and fences. And forgive all my previous offences,
And I'll soon bring all you plebs to your senses!
When Jones'...."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 07:37 AM

brilliant.

Subject: Origins: When Jones Ale Was New
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 08:49 AM

How old is the song When Jones Ale Was New? Does anyone w=know when it was first collected. Frank Jones Brewery was established in Portsmouth, NH in 1889 and grew to be maybe the world's largest brewery. I've always wondered if the song could refer to the ale that Frank Jones brewed.

Jack

Subject: RE: Origins: When Jones' Ale Was New
From: RTim
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 08:52 AM

From 1594...........!!

https://www.fresnostate.edu/folklore/ballads/Doe168.html

Tim Radford

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When Jones's Ale Was New

DESCRIPTION: Stories from Jones's Bar. Various drinkers come in, each with his tale or his unruly behavior or his demand. Most are hard workers whose burdens are relieved by the ale.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1594 (stationer's register)
KEYWORDS: drink nonballad landlord ritual
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MA) Britain(England(All),Scotland) Australia
REFERENCES (18 citations):
Doerflinger, pp. 168-169, "When Johnson's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Ford-Vagabond, pp. 273-277, "When John's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
GreigDuncan3 561, "When Jones' Ale Was New" (1 fragment, 1 tune)
Williams-Thames, pp. 276-278, "When Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text) (also Wiltshire-WSRO Wt 507)
Wiltshire-WSRO Ox 243, "When Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text)
Copper-SoBreeze, pp. 284-285, "Four Jolly Fellows" (1 text, 1 tune)
Hamer-Green, pp. 14-15, "When Jones' Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
CopperSeason, pp. 286-287, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Kennedy 287, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Reeves-Sharp 50, "Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text)
Palmer-ECS, #117, "When Jone's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Dixon-Peasantry, Song #22, pp. 206-208,249, "Joan's Ale was New" (1 text)
Bell-Combined, pp. 417-419, "Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text)
Combs/Wilgus 166, pp. 132-133, "The Jovial Tinker (Joan's Ale is Good)" (1 text -- a heavily modified version with a floating first verse and a final verse that may imply a Civil War setting)
Paterson/Fahey/Seal, pp. 245-248, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text plus an excerpt from a British broadside)
Silber-FSWB, p. 231, "Johnson's Ale" (1 text)
BBI, ZN2502, "There was a jovial Tinker"
DT, JONESALE JONESAL2 JONESAL3
Roud #139
RECORDINGS:
Bob & Ron Copper, "The Jovial Tradesman" (on LomaxCD1700); "The Jovial Tradesman" (on FSB3)
Fred Jordan, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (on Voice13)
John M. (Sailor Dad) Hunt, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (AFS, 1941; on LC27)
A. L. Lloyd, "When Johnson's Ale Was New" (on Lloyd12)
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Douce Ballads 1(105b), "Joan's Ale is New"["Jones" in the text], T. Vere (London), 1644-1680; also Douce Ballads 1(99b), "Joan's Ale is New"["Jones" in the text]; Harding B 28(139), "Joan's Ale"["Joan's" in the text]; Harding B 11(652), "When John's Ale Was New"; Harding B 16(336b), "Joan's Ale Was New"["Joan's" in the text]; 2806 c.18(169), "Joan's Ale is New"["Joan's" in the text]
Murray, Mu23-y2:014, "When John's Ale was New," Poet's Box (Glasgow), 19C
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Young Man Who Travelled Up and Down"
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Jone's ale is newe
When John's Sail Was New
NOTES [20 words]: The song was sung by the "jolly boys" (pace-eggers) in Overton, Lancs, as part of their Easter house-to-house ritual. - PJS
Last updated in version 5.0
File: Doe168

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